Recovery vs Sports

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
1

I’m sure a lot of people out there do other physical activities besides weight lifting… such as baseball, football or martial arts.

For those of you who weight train and actively practice a sport, how do you balance your training?

For me, recovery is a huge problem. I cannot recover fully until at least 48 hours after my workout. If I were to work out twice a week, which would probably be the minimum number of times per week anyone who isn’t a fan of Mike Mentzer should train, that means I’m out of commission for four days, not even including the days I have to practice my martial art.

What do you guys do?

2

You can use a ton of different recovery methods… Check out CTs latest bench article it has a lot in there also Pre during and post workout nutrition will help…

CT also had an article on volume… check that out…

You can adjust the volume so that you wont need 2 full days to recover…

3

J~

Many athleetes face this problem, as you know. Fortunately, this has been addressed in many Russian texts. In lieu of reading them, I would simply refer to the model which Charlie Francis has been using for decades with his athletes. It takes into account many of the issues you are facing now, and is very sound in principle and application. I have used this split, in various forms, with hundreds of athletes and they make amazing gains.

As you know, there are many types of fatigue. We need to address CNS and muscular fatigue. These are the two which are directly affected by your training, and things like a wearing down of your immune defense system occurs indirectly.

Muscular fatigue as you know passes rather quickly, especially if you have a solid level of GPP, and use recovery methods. CNS fatigue on the other hand takes longer… 48 hours at least…if you really do an advanced workout, and aren’t juicing, try 72 hours. So what are we to do…

In order to answer this, you must understand what truly stresses the CNS. CNS is stressed whenever we do things that require optimal output. This includes lifting very heavy weights (as a percentage of your 1RM), or lifting weights in a manner which produces a very high Fmax (Olympics, Ballistics). CNS is also stressed if you give a max effort all the way down at the rate end of the Force Curve. This includes sprint work, acceleration work, agility work, reactive training. et cetera. The extent to which the system is stressed is directly related to the level of intensity (no matter where on the Force Curve), and the volume of the work done at that intensity.

Work that doesn’t stress the CNS is anything that isn’t performed at a high level of intensity, or requires reactive movements utilizing sensory cues. This includes things like extra workouts using the repetition method not to failure, with higher reps. It also includes things like lighter sled dragging, tempo runs (less than 75% of max speed), BW calisthenics, and many forms of suppleness training (specifically for your sport). I use many of the drills that Scott Sonnon prescribes in his Grappler’s Toolbox with my wrestlers and grapplers during these recovery days.

What Charlie does is to have CNS stress days, with recovery days in between designed to cause high levels of blood flow, but low intensity. This helps to increase capillary density in your recovering muscles, removes waste product from the previous days workout, and brings in nutrients to repair any muscle breakdown sustained.

So a weekly split looks like this:

Sprint Work & Lift (Whole Body usually)
Tempo runs (let’s say 20x100m @ 70%)
Sprint Work and Lift
Tempo Runs
Sprint Work and Lift
Tempo Runs
Off

Now, sprint work has many different faces, but basically involves a lot of acceleration work, and some top end training. Later he works on specific endurance. Tempo runs are a track athlete’s version of a recovery workout.

This is obviously for high level athletes with top notch recovery help and nutrition. I cannot have most of my kids do this type of split due to them needing more rest. Kids simply don’t eat well enough, are under huge stress often, and just cannot keep up this level of training. Now, if the child’s parent truly accepts the Synergy that is created by sound training, nutrition, and recovery, then we can have the child maintain this split if they have had a couple years of solid training… I often still prefer a tad more rest… even though I am passing on money.

Charlie also gets away with this split by mainataining very low volume during his sprint work. He has his athletes do 300-600 yards of sprint work with full recovery. Then the workouts are complete, but very economical… with that being said, Ben Johnson could bench over twice his weight, and could squat three and a half times his weight. So the workouts are effective. Just the basics.

OK, so what can you do to stay fresh?

Try the same type of logic, but you must design your own action plan that is feasible in your life.

Ideally:

Hard matt work and/or strike training, Lift

Easy Matt work (reversal technique, suppleness, etc), Core Work, Road work

Hard matt work and/or strike training, Lift

Easy Matt work (reversal technique, suppleness, etc), Core Work, Road work

Hard matt work and/or strike training, Lift

Easy Matt work (reversal technique, suppleness, etc), Core Work, Road work

Off

This is obviously simplistic, but I think you get the point. I want you to understand the principle rather than a specific split. If you cannot handle that workload, then cut out a high CNS day…or just cut the volume back within the days.

Early in the training cycle, Charlie actually lifts on the recovery days, but that is because the intensity of the lifting and the running is low…this period is a slow shift from GPP to SPP. As you approach SPP dominant periods in your training cycle, it is recommended to use the split I first showed to stave of CNS overtraining.

I hope this makes sense and is helpful. This basic knowledge should help you arrange your microcycles more effectively.

Coach JR, CSCS
“Jumanji”

4

That is an awesome post. BTW, Jumanji do you have CF’s DVD about GPP?
Thanks
Will42

5

Heh heh heh… I won’t even attempt to follow up Jumanji’s post with something as intelligent or informative (more so because I don’t have anything to say…), but here’s something from perhaps the more casual athlete:

I think you have to decide what your goals are. If you want to participate in many sports, school, and lift, you may have to accept that balance is going to go out the window. Depending on your schedule, it is guaranteed that you will be sabotaging yourself.

For example, last semester, I played volleyball, walleyball, soccer, and team handball on a weekly basis. I also threw in a lifting program (Ian King) three times a week. It would seem that lifting often fell on days when one of the sports was also on…

If you do not need to bench 400 pounds, nor do you have to be a behemoth, then you probably won’t have trouble with something like this. It most likely isn’t a mass-maker program, but it is very enjoyable.

As to the recovery, you get used to it. There are days when you may not have much go left, but you just have to get yourself pumped, sometimes on the strength of pure willpower. Enough sleep at night is essential, and I took roughly every 9th week of lifting off. I also attempted to keep saturdays clear of any strenuous activity. That one day was usually enough.

Some may say that I’m not hitting the weights hard enough if I am able to do this, but I disagree. I am of the belief that overtraining is pretty tough to do. It’s when you stop that you get sick. Therefore, never stop completely…

So what have I really said here? Nothing, I suppose, except that sometimes you can’t worry about balance. You just got to give’er.

-FC

6

[quote]Will42 wrote:
That is an awesome post. BTW, Jumanji do you have CF’s DVD about GPP?
Thanks
Will42
[/quote]

Thanks Will, I agree the topic needs to be addressed on T-Nation to a much deeper degree. Most of the articles here are awesome, but none seem to tie together all elements of training. Therefore we get very fundamental, yet vitally important questions like the one Judecca poses.

BTW, I have posted here for years, but changed my nickname. I am back after an 8 month hiatus. Big Martin will quickly realize who I am, and if he has his place opened up, I hope he shoots me an IM so I can swing by the Southside to check it out!!!

Will, I do have Charlie’s DVD, and it is excellent. I have both of his books, and will probably get his seminar DVD soon. They are all very good. The GPP DVD takes all of the things we discuss here regularly and shows how the principles apply in a specific manner to Sprinters. He does not address other sports, but it is easy to understand how to apply what he says if you focus on the core principles behind his training make-up.

There are two females portrayed in the video doing exercises. One is Charlie’s wife, I believe, and the other is a stunningly beautiful female sprinter (Charlie’s wife is pretty also, but I don’t want to come across as innappropriate). Her stride looks long and powerful, so I may place her as a 400 runner, not a short sprinter. When I say beauty, I refer to her athletic movements. Her face is always a ways off. I just consider beauty in a way different than most. She moves beautifully.

The DVD goes over how he trains the whole body during his initial GPP phase, what he does for running during this period, and how he prepares his athletes to get into proper acceleration position without requiring the high power demand usually necessary to do this. I’ll give you a hint: if you cannot change the athletes position relative to the ground, change the ground relative to the athlete. This little trick is long known by most track coaches, but has received some bad press from time to time due to longer ground contact times… but are we worried about ground contact times during GPP phase? No…OK, discussion over.

Charlie then goes on to show his version of the hyper complex (straight leg reverse hyper, bent leg reverse hyper, back hyper, back hyper w/ row). He shows core work, MB training, et cetera. He also moves on into the early prep period, where he goes over the basics of the drive phase (acceleration), shows different kinds of drive phase runs, and explains why this lady has good form, and has appropriate levels of power output at toe off.

I was a track guy when not in Spring Football, and have coached for years. The video honestly shows much of what can be pieced toegther from the hundreds of articles and posts here. What Charlie does is to show you step-by-step how to put together your program…that is key. It isn’t an eight week to bigger squats, or key exercises to improve your bench type DVD. It is a program organization DVD, with many exercise choices shown, and how they would fit into an overall program. Excellent in my opinion.

Like I said, you could glean the information from articles here, but then you may always be wondering: am I doing everything I should be? Plus, to do so, and to devise your own program, then re-tinker with it, etc would take hours. So I ask: how much is your time worth? How much time would you save if you knew a proven framework and all you had to do was make it sports specific?

That reason right there is why I believe the DVD is worthwhile. Charlie has been a great guide for many of us coaches for years, so I also support his endeavors with my patronage (I buy his stuff over other track DVD’s out there).

He won’t tell you sets and reps, he won’t tell you exactly what lifts to do, he honestly cannot do that without seeing you and doing a strength and movement analysis. What he does provide is a framework for you to follow…

Remember, it isn’t an 8-weeks to better bench type DVD… it is equally good (or better for coaches), but different.

I would buy it again without hesitation.

Coach JR, CSCS
“Jumanji”

7

I appreciate the responses, especially coach Jumanji’s!

But I’m having a little difficulty making sense of it. Would it be at all possible for you to explain your ideas in an approach more for beginners like myself? i.e. ‘Recovery for Dummies’? :slight_smile:

8

Thank you for your post, Jumanji. The more I learn about Charlie Francis’s methods, the more I want to know…

9

Jumanji

The set up sounds like Kenn’s tier system. Is that what you’re using or something similiar? Can you go into more details? I’m curious of what you’d do for sprinters. What would you do if someone is looking for best all around e.g. relatively strong while running good 5k time?

10

[quote]Judecca wrote:
I appreciate the responses, especially coach Jumanji’s!

But I’m having a little difficulty making sense of it. Would it be at all possible for you to explain your ideas in an approach more for beginners like myself? i.e. ‘Recovery for Dummies’? :)[/quote]

Judecca,

I am working on homeowrk right now (MBA Finance), but I stopped by to see what was happening on this thread.

OK, here is the deal:

Hard Day on CNS
Easy Day on CNS
Hard Day on CNS
Easy Day on CNS
Hard Day on CNS
Easy Day on CNS
Off

For Beginners you could do 4 days a week and take the weekends and Wed off if wanted. It really just depends on your level of training.

So then it could be:

Hard Day on CNS
Easy Day on CNS
Off
Hard Day on CNS
Easy Day on CNS
Off
Off

Or do a 5 day split (which could be much like the Tier System), and go:

Hard Day on CNS
Easy Day on CNS
Hard Day on CNS
Easy Day on CNS
Hard Day on CNS
Off
Off

Hard CNS activities include:
Reactive Drills
Sparring
Hard Matt Work
Heavy Lifting
Full Speed Agility or Sprint Work
Full Plyometric Workout

Easy CNS activities involve:
Sled Dragging
Tempo Runs
BW GPP
Lighter Repetition Lifting (like BM uses so well to bring up weak parts)
Matt Engagement Drills
Pre-hab work
Choreographed Submission passes
Et Cetera

The lists are huge, but I think you get the idea.

High CNS = High Intensity &/or Reactive at Top Speed

Low CNS = Lower intensity, choreagraphed etc.

Low days allow you to build capillary density, build dynamic mobility and suppleness, work on making technique more efficient, bring up lagging body parts, and pre-hab work. It also allows you to add gas to the tank…ie tempo runs, while still saving proper form.

I hope this makes sense.

In any sport where technique is of utmost importance, I would always have athletes do their sport work first, then strength work. This is usually the case, except for with Linemen in Football, etc. I usually have the big men lift first, then hit the field until the final phase leading into the season.

For you Judecco, you want to have a really good session on the matt, but be mature enough to understand when it is time to go lift weights. Some nights it is great to leave everything on the matt and go home, but if you want to improve your overall power and strength, you must be mature and understand that you cannot perfect everything every night. Work for a set time, then go lift.

The problem is that you probably go to a place where your workouts and instruction is planned. If this is the case, then you must be sure to allow yourself to recover. Many instructors forget the lessons learned from Kerr, Coleman, and Abbott: Sometimes more power is good…it can be overbearing.

I do not know what your personal strengths are on the matt, nor what your strategy is, but if it involves an aspect of power (mine always did), then you must commit some time to that aspect.

Obviously lifting strength and matt strength are different, but they can be combined synergistically to enhance your game.

I hope this helps.

I will post more later on what I have done with the Tier system, but Ross (BM) has posted, and a guy named Silverback (hint, hint) posted a ton on exactly that topic a while back. Just do a search and you will find it.

Gotta run for now!!

Good to be back!!

Coach JR, CSCS
“Jumanji”

11

Try this:

Lift two days a week. Do a full-body workout each time and go hard but not to failure.
Take the day after lifting completely off.
On the other three days play your sport.

So, it would look like this:

Mon. Sport
Tues. Sport
Wed. Lift
Thurs. Rest
Fri. Sport
Sat. Lift
Sun. Rest.

12

Jumanji what was your last forum name?

Was it silver back, if so welcome back!

13

I obviously cannot make a post as detailed as jumanji’s, so I will just add this…sleep! As a competitive swimmer I swim at a minimum 7 times a week for 1-2 hours each session, plus I run and lift 3 times a week as well. Add to this my college courses and my work and recovery becoms difficult. So I decided I would be in bed no later than 10pm every night (Fri. & Sat. included), and that I would get at least 9 hours of sleep. I cannot tell you what a difference this makes. First, your body gets into a sleeping pattern so you find yourself waking up without needing an alarm. Second, you actually wake up feeling refreshed, something that I hadn’t felt in a long time. So basically, ensure you are getting enough sleep and avoid super late nights and see if that helps.

14

I’m also having the nagging problem of balancing weightlifitng and MMA training. In some ways I know I need to lift and also in (most cases) I know I need to train. I have decided to try Waterbury’s SFM weightlifting program. The total volume of the program is manageable. Also MMA training will be four days per week (Monday- Thursday). I am going to use various recovery methods (i.e. Post workout: Surge, cold/contrast showers, ice massage, etc).
bmau