[quote]katzenjammer wrote:=
Spartiates - please listen carefully. After all, it is a very serious thing to accuse people of racism. To do so, you have to have real and unmistakeable proof. I’m sure you’d agree. [/quote]
I do, but I believe people and institutions or groups are different. People are complex, they say stupid things, make silly mistakes, can grow, exe. I don’t give the same person-hood to movements and political parties, because what they are is a collective of people who identify together on a single, or group of issues, and in order to make their voices louder, give up the autonomy of the individual, to join the group, to make their cry louder. Every movement has a fringe. But if you let that fringe speak for you, without quick, strong objection, then you become complacent with their message. So, even if it’s only a small group on the fringe who is racist, they are the ones yelling the loudest. They are shaping the image of the movement.
This entire thread, the defenses offered to the pictures posted are “they’re not racist you stupid hippy”, rather than: “That doesn’t represent the Tea Party.” Which in my mind is implicit compliance.
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:=
You seem to be asking how best to determine whether racism is anything other than a lunatic fringe element at these rallies. Let me ask you a question - which of these people is more likely to know:
a. Frank Rich who has never been to a Tea Party and has spent his entire life as a theater critic crooning about how wonderful Cats is.
b. guys on the internet looking at a few racist-sounding signs.
c. or, the blacks, hispanics, and asians who were not only there but fully integrated. If there was even a whiff of racism, do you really think they’d be there? Feel comfortable there? Return back there?
Do you REALLY think that Rich or “some internet guy” knows better about whether racism is anywhere near a core value of the Tea Party?
I can’t imagine you’re going to pick anything but C.
[/quote]
You’re right, given your premises, and the options given, only C makes sense. But I can also tell you that you can find thousands of Tea Party pictures online, all over the place, on facebook, on people’s photobucket accounts, all over, and the racial makeup of the movement is not proportional to the racial makeup of the US. Not even close. And I would again, remind you, that there are many homosexuals in the Republican party, and openly anti-gay rights party, because most people are not single issue voters.
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:=
So, therefore: can you see how outrageously arrogant and offensive it is to go around making accusations to a group of people who are serious and noble and civil? [/quote]
I can see how, you, as a presumably non-racist person would take offense at it. I was in the Marines. It is/was (are they changing it?) and openly homophobic institution. I’m proud I was in the Marines, but still ashamed at their homophobic leanings. I think you too can be proud of the movement, and participate in it, without denying that it’s attracted A LOT of racist crazies. And I think the only thing that will keep the movement from collapsing on itself, is if people like you, from the inside, tell the crazies to shut-up, or get out because that’s not what the movement is about.
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:=
Do you see how it can sound as if you and the President and certain Congressional leaders are saying that if you don’t like the Bill/Law you must be racist? [/quote]
Yes, similar to "if you don’t like this bill/law/war you’re Un-American. Same playbook. Still nasty, still has not place in constructive dialogue. All I can say is, you guys need a more coherent, level headed response. The Republicans came up with nothing. It’s easy to protest, it’s difficult to govern. It helps to come up with an alternative when trying to explain what you don’t like about something. Signs like “Your Healthcare, Your Problem.” while you or I might agree with them, don’t exactly offer hope to anyone.
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:=
In a way, I hope you keep it up; because we’re going to get increasingly civil in our tone, and noble and serious in our aims. And it’s going to drive the liberal left bat shit crazy. Because that’s what they’re really angry about. Keep fanning those flames friend.
~katz
[/quote]
I will, and I know it may be hard for you to believe, but if the tone gets more civil, the thoughts more coherent, and some reasonable people get in and offer solutions in place of the crazies wearing wigs, pretending to fight the British Empire of 1773, I’ll be interested. But I think I’m done voluntarily associating myself with groups whose beliefs or conduct I have major beef with.
And I don’t like Palin.