Raw Lifters

Training Powerlifting
81

[quote]King_David_3 wrote:
In geared powerlifting there is lots of emphasis on locking out bench press and training triceps hard, right? is this because bench shirts help most in the bottom half of the lift? so then what sort of assistance work do raw lifters do to strengthen the bottom half of the lift? sheiko programs have alot of flyes in them, anyone use them? i ask cus my bench sticks about 5 or 6 inches off my chest.[/quote]

5-6 inches isn’t really the bottom… it’s more mid range. Things like 2 board presses, floor presses, benches against bands and dumbbell presses should help.

82

i used sheiko… basically when you pause EVERY REP like you should do on sheiko, you will get really strong in the bottom part…

and then of course his assistance work for pecs does its job also…

to correct you, in sheiko it is not flies, it says chest, so you do either db press, flies, peck deck, or whatever works for your chest… or you change it every time like I did… but I mostly did DB presses… felt them best…

also as far as sticking point, you dont train at the point of sticking point, you should train BELOW IT, because thats actually place that is weak, the bar slows down and then it stops, so dont get caught to train for the sticking point by training ABOVE IT…

like people get stuck at 3 board level, and then they do only 3 board presses and bench stays the same… thing is WEAK PART IS BELOW, there are the muscles that cant get bar further… there the bar slows down and stops… there is THE WEAK POINT… by doing 3 board presses, you train everything ABOVE that, and you cant even get the bar to that level… so its no use…

i did sheiko and I have some variations that I made for myself that are made for equipped lifters, and some variation that are just variations, I bought his book and put together some nice programmes… some people in the gym made quite a progress on them…

for raw benching assistance work should be…
longer pause benches
ladder benches (where you stop the bar at 3 points on the way up or down for 3 sec.)
close grip benches
incline/decline benches

etc. basically to cut the list short, you dont need as much partial lifting if you need any at all… like I said basic lift done for few hard sets, and then 2 exercises targeting the weak points… for few sets… you can do it more often than you would train in equipment…

like Jim Wendler (i think) said it somewhere… something like… I can make you stronger even on program from muscle and fitness if you’re willing to work hard enough…

there is nothing special and fancy in RAW training, thats why it is less interesting than equipment training where you can tweak more things and experiment and see how it affects you performance…

gavra

83

cool. my m.e. bench day right now sounds alot like that. im playing around with the standard westside template and it looks like this
Bench/ Incline CG/ Floor press
DB press
Row
Triceps (usualy dips)
Shoulders (usualy lateral raises with a few sets of shrugs thrown in)
then some biceps if i have time, you know, for the girls

84

[quote]gavra wrote:
i started out as an equipped lifter, now I train RAW for the moment, trying to get my RAW lifts UP… well as far as training, I think it is different…

RAW you can do more volume, more often I think… programs like sheiko and similar stuff, try do it based on your equipped maxes, you will see the difference after second week…

you dont really need bands, board presses, floor presses etc. speed work you do maybe need, but partial lifts I dont think they’re needed…

BOX squats you can do…

for RAW, I would include pause at the bottom in benches and squats… ladders (how I call them, pausing the bar in few different positions during a lift for 3sec, on the way down and up)… etc…

i also dont know why but seems that progressive overload (or western periodization how people call it) works better with raw lifts than equipped ones… at least for me…

for equipment lifting you need lot of special exercises, lot of volume in equipment…

for RAW, you can train more often with more volume, but you dont need as much assistance work for different parts of the lift… MAIN exercise plus 2-3 exercises hitting the weak point should be enough…

in RAW lifting simply getting stronger will give you the most bang for your buck, technique changes can do only so much, after that is basically how strong you are…

for equipment lifting how the equipment works is more important, and learning it… cause no mather what you do for that tricep, if the shirt is not good, you’re going nowhere…

both of it requests tremendous work, cause neither is easy… end goal is the same, lifting more weight… just the training is a little bit different, but at the end, you’re still squatting, benching and deadlifting hehehehe…

gavra[/quote]

thanks for all the info, will be putting to use asap.

85

Personally I feel that if raw benchers want to make more progress with there bench they should have strengthening their shoulers a piority. Doing inclines and military and bradford presses could definitely increase your bench if you haven’t already put them to use, raises just don’t cut it, atleast for me. Shoulders are involved the bottom portion of benching where many benchers get stuck.

Garva I feel that raw benchers should use partial movements like 3 board press because it allows one to learn to handle heavier weight than they normally bench with, strengthen connective tissue and help with lock out. Incorperating anything past 3-board in training is useless unless you’re an equipped lifter.

86

[quote]I’mCharming wrote:
Personally I feel that if raw benchers want to make more progress with there bench they should have strengthening their shoulers a piority. Doing inclines and military and bradford presses could definitely increase your bench if you haven’t already put them to use, raises just don’t cut it, atleast for me. Shoulders are involved the bottom portion of benching where many benchers get stuck.
Garva I feel that raw benchers should use partial movements like 3 board press because it allows one to learn to handle heavier weight than they normally bench with, strengthen connective tissue and help with lock out. Incorperating anything past 3-board in training is useless unless you’re an equipped lifter.[/quote]

you’re right about the shoulders… I noticed a direct carryover from military press to my bench press… I cycle shoulder training 6 weeks on, 4 weeks off, cause they prolong my recovery, I use them a lot when I bench, so I noticed, even if I do one rep more than needed my next bench session sucks… shoulders too tired… so when I try to peak up my raw bench I leave them alone hehehehehe… when they’re fresh… bench skyrockets…

as far as using partial movements to get used to the heavy weights… I never understood why you need getting used to heavier weights… I can train with between 130-150kg and come out and get 190 everytime… in sheiko programs you only go for a maximum on a meet day, training at 80% of your max most of the time, and they’re pretty good in bringing the raw max up…

you can take like 120% from time to time, hold it for some time, and then rack it to get use for heavier weights… but like I said… I never understood “getting used to”… I can train for months with submaximal weights, and if I take max or PR weight it wont surprise me… i think its a mental thing…

the way I see it, using too much partial movements for RAW benching will prolong your recovery time (training with weights above your max), and wont do as much for improving the lift… I would rather throw in another bench day instead of resting from heavy above maximum movement…

its OK for strenghtening the connective tissue part, if partial lifts can do that, never heard that they can actually strengthen the connective tissue… or that connective tissue can be strenghtened by using weights above you max and partial lifts… so wont comment on this because I never heard it, and I dont know about that… altough it seems logical, i dont know if it is like that…

handling the heavier weight… why would you handle a weight that you cant lift… I mean all the things you need to handle in a competition is your max and a little above that (if you go for PR in a meet)… at least my oppinion…

improving the lockout… well, for most people lockout is not the weak point on RAW bench…

dont get me wrong, I’m not saying you’re not right, but just… I see to many people doing the partial movements for wrong reasons… some even JUST FOR THE SAKE OF HOLDING HEAVIER BARBELL… I say do them if they’re necessary for you… for most people they’re not… for most people sticking point in RAW bench is before they get to the 1/2 of the way up… which is lower part…

most people start doing partial movements, do them for weeks, they bench stays the same, but they keep doing it, because thats what everybody else does… I saw more people getting better carryover from plain close grip benches than from partial movements…

the bottom line is… dont get all caught up in that… especially in using heavier weight than your max…

and advice for those who maybe have to do them… watch out that your groove is the same, cause they wont have any effect if you do them one way, and bench another way, the body will just be confused with learning 2 movements…

they helped on my shirted max, but my RAW max never really went up more when I did them as opposed when I just skipped them… so they didnt made a difference… when I do 3 board presses, my 3bp goes up almost instantly, but whats the use if my raw bench stays the same like it does… i mean I’m after the bench numbers, not the 3 board press numbers…

gavra

87

Gavra - how do you work shoulders in the routine? Personally I haven’t noticed much effect from stronger shoulders on the bench although my shoulders aren’t incredibly strong.

My issue I can bench 3 days a week with a moderate weight no big deal for recovery, but if I do 1 shoulder day that is relatively hard than I can’t do more than 1 bench day a week without overtraining my shoulders.

Also my sticking point is pretty high up, higher than normal for raw, so I do use 2, 3, and 4 board presses although I would be lying if I said they completely fixed my problem.

88

[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:
Gavra - how do you work shoulders in the routine? Personally I haven’t noticed much effect from stronger shoulders on the bench although my shoulders aren’t incredibly strong.

My issue I can bench 3 days a week with a moderate weight no big deal for recovery, but if I do 1 shoulder day that is relatively hard than I can’t do more than 1 bench day a week without overtraining my shoulders.

Also my sticking point is pretty high up, higher than normal for raw, so I do use 2, 3, and 4 board presses although I would be lying if I said they completely fixed my problem.[/quote]

i told ya, i have the same shit… do the shoulders, have to cut few bench days… so I do them 6 weeks out of 10 in how i call it base building period, and then when I’m concetrating on bench weights, I just train bench/triceps… but if I get them stronger in those 6 weeks, I’m going to see a difference in my bench after I give them a break…

well, how I train them, basically, I pick a few movements, lets say behind the neck or military press, and front/side/rear raises… and then I train the main movement, lets say BNP (behind the neck press) like I would train one of the three lifts… to move more weight… every 6 weeks I use something different to try out…

sometimes I pick a weight that I can do 3 times, and then I shoot for total number of reps (no mather how many sets)… usually between 10-15 for shoulders…

sometimes, I use basic progressive overload, I take 5kg more than what I can lift, I count back weeks, 5kg for every week, and then start hoping at the end that I will hit that 5kg more…

sometimes, I got up to a max every time, then drop a weight to certain percentage of that max and do different set/rep schemes…

its really hard to say what is best, because in different times different things worked, like once when I added 25kg on my BNP just by doing heavy single, next week adding 5kg more, single again and like that till I figured out that I’m 25kg above from the point I was 6 weeks ago… but that was only once, and I still cant repeat that…

once I did COMPLETE sheiko cycle using BNP numbers instead of BP numbers… and raises instead of flyes… 4 weeks of shoulder ONLY training with DL and squat… hahahahaha…

anyway, after the main movement I do 2-3 sets of dumbell presses and/or shoulder raises… reps on these go between 12-20… I’ve never used DB press as main shoulder movement, but I’m thinking about trying it…

I normally train bench 2 times a week, but when I hit shoulders hard, I train one day bench, and the other day just use bench as a warmup working up to a heavy single, then stopping and moving to shoulders workout…

as far as for your sticking point, try working on your techniquue a little bit more… play with the grip width… try it wider if you dont already use maximum competition width…

like I said with boards, not too many people will get much out of them for RAW bench… try doing board presses, with you bench RM, so dont go heavier, just go for MORE REPS, and try to immitate the groove of the bench… I dont know why, but the rep thing… I noticed with some people gives good progress unlike 1-3 reps thing (at least with boards)… so the weight you’re using for your bench day, DO THE SAME OFF THE BOARDS, dont go up in weight, just go up in reps… try it and see what happens…

gavra

89

Gavra - thanks for the post, some interesting thoughts.

90

I will be cycling overhead pressing 3 or 4 on / 2 off …barbell and DB’s . probably alternate between doing them on ME and RE day , but not both . pretty sure shoulder strength is the week link on the bench…along with overall lack of mass.

probably cycle them off while doing inclines as an ME Bench movement . so I’ll start 'em back up next week (last week of incline/5RM)

great discussion BTW

91

[quote]marlboroman wrote:
I will be cycling overhead pressing 3 or 4 on / 2 off …barbell and DB’s . probably alternate between doing them on ME and RE day , but not both . pretty sure shoulder strength is the week link on the bench…along with overall lack of mass.

probably cycle them off while doing inclines as an ME Bench movement . so I’ll start 'em back up next week (last week of incline/5RM)

great discussion BTW[/quote]

dont alternate, just do DB’s one cycle, BB other cycle… at least my oppinion, one MAIN movement at a time… then you can really see WHAT GIVES MORE BANG FOR A BUCK… i mean which movement is working better… which is important… for future progress…

so you try, see how it affects the pressing strength, try something else, see how that affects it, and then at the end, you’ll know excatly what and when works, which will make things easier to organize in your training…

why I rarely do floor presses? because every time I did them, they didnt do shit for my bench… and I found that out after I divided my assistance work, before that I was progressing, but since I did a little bit of everything, I never actually knew what is really working and what is just waste of time…

gavra

92

I actually meant alternating between doing them on ME day for a bit , like 3 or 4 weeks , and then moving them to RE (bench assistance) day for the next 3 or 4 weeks…but staying with either BB or DB during each 3 (or 4) cycle like you said

but I do see what you’re getting at

thanks dude

93

so let me run this past you strength gurus .

first , a couple bench stats …

1RM / flat…215
1RM / incline…185 (close guestimate)

showing an incline bench at 85% of flat .

would you consider that an imbalance ?

94

[quote]marlboroman wrote:
so let me run this past you strength gurus .

first , a couple bench stats …

1RM / flat…215
1RM / incline…185 (close guestimate)

showing an incline bench at 85% of flat .

would you consider that an imbalance ?
[/quote]

today, after LONG LONG time ago, 6 months or more I started training my inclines, maybe thats the weak link… I’ve always sucked at them comparing to my flat, not because of the strength, but I simply dont know the movement… doesnt feel natural…

but ok… mine is between 70-80% of my best flat… but I never did inclines, I did one 10 week cycle with them in 5 years of training, and now again I started doing them…

listen this… 2 guys, 220 benches RAW, both of them under 110kg, one guy does 160kgx3 behind the neck press, other guy 80x10 or something… I know them both… where is imbalance?

gavra

95

got it

thanx again

I brought it up because I absolutely hate doing inclines . and I’m thinking I may try cycling them in more often ( 3 to 5 rep range)

96

1.I don’t know if this has been brought up yet but what’s your favorite bench ME cycle lifts, I think I’ll do:

Floor press
Normal Flat bench
2 board

does this look good?

What are the best ways to assess weakness in the bench?

I fail around halfway in my raw squat. I’m good for the first few inches coming up and the last few at the top, but the middle is a long grind. On squat days I do:

Squats to single double or triple
Glute ham raises 2-3x 8-10
leg press 5-5-5-3-20 rep widowmaker
calves

97

not my favorite , but currently using incline , full ROM , 1 or 2 bd , and paused .

98

GIVE IT TO ME RAAAWWW!

But seriously, nice thread guys.

99

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
1.I don’t know if this has been brought up yet but what’s your favorite bench ME cycle lifts, I think I’ll do:

Floor press
Normal Flat bench
2 board

does this look good?

What are the best ways to assess weakness in the bench?[/quote]

I’d probably switch the normal bench to close grip, and add in miniband presses too (that’d actually be my exact ME rotation and it’s done great work for my raw strength). I kept my normal benching on DE day and did RE work with it.

And worked up to a heavy 5, 3, 2 or 1 with regular bench grip for my ME day after the ME movement, and before putting my shirt on. These were weights I knew I could get and wouldn’t fail on.

As for assessing weaknesses…VERY broadly speaking
-right off the chest = lats
-a few inches off = chest/shoulders
-mid range = chest/shoulders
-top end = tris

Of course of these could be over come by speed and a tighter set up too.

[quote]2.

I fail around halfway in my raw squat. I’m good for the first few inches coming up and the last few at the top, but the middle is a long grind. On squat days I do:

Squats to single double or triple
Glute ham raises 2-3x 8-10
leg press 5-5-5-3-20 rep widowmaker
calves[/quote]

Ditto… I miss 6-8 inches out of the hole raw. I don’t think it’s a specific weakness tbh, I think it’s just where most people miss their squats!! If you’re getting pulled forward as you miss, look at your ab strength.

100

[quote]
zephead4747 wrote:
1.I don’t know if this has been brought up yet but what’s your favorite bench ME cycle lifts, I think I’ll do:

Floor press
Normal Flat bench
2 board

does this look good?

What are the best ways to assess weakness in the bench?[/quote]

besides the assistance work for specific muscle groups… like lower part chest/lats… mid part chest/shoulders upper part shoulder/tris and so on…

sticking points depend on technique… so if your lockout is stronger and off the chest is weaker, try moving grip a little bit in, which will even out the strengths with weaknesses…

so you’ll get it off the chest easier, and maybe lifit more weight…
if you’re strong off the chest try widening the grip…

if one arm lockouts unevenly, move the grip for arm that lockouts later a little bit closer to the plates, and the other arm a little bit farther away from the plates… (like if right arm is late, move right arm one finger to the right, and left arm one finger to the right also)…

things like this… which can serve as a quick fix…

of course, plain on get stronger in all muscle groups is the best solution, but we all know it is not that easy to achieve…

same for squat, manipulating the bar position, grip and stance… you can move your sticking point to more favorable position… a position in which dominant muscle is the one that can get stronger faster… like if you’re having problems strenghtening hams/glutes move your stance closer, so quads would be dominant, and for example quads are easier for you to strenghten them… then you just need to train squat/quads, and do hams/glutes on the way, so they can keep up, and as long as quads are improving so will squat… of course it can only go so much… but you get the point…

actually for raw lifting… form/style/technique like RDC would say are more important than routine and assistanc work…

like the old problem of knees going in, I remmember few years back, I listened to advice of RDC (rickey dale crain)… I started with 60kg working up every day, just concetrating that my knees dont come in… I havent done any one of those exercises that like strenghten the weak points, I just practised the perfect squat… and after some time, my squats started getting better, and knees coming in was not a problem anymore even with maximum weights…

so sometimes, sticking point can be solved just by finding adequate technique for your body type, and of course practising the lifts the way they should be… especially important for raw lifting… sometime you dont need special exercises to address it… altough both ways seems logical, see what works better for you…

always see if your problem is weakness related or technique related… maybe just learning to position your elbows right through the lift will be enough to solve lockout weakness, you dont necessarily need to get triceps stronger…

damn my posts are long… sorry…

gavra