[quote]pumped340 wrote:
One thing I’m wondering is, I know many never lost strength or muscle on the diet, but would the sudden drop in protein not result in a significant loss of body protein (i.e. muscle)? Apparently not from some empirical evidence, but from what I understand the body gets used to a certain amount of protein so if I were eating say, 300g, and then on the RFL suddenly dropped to such low calories and protein closer to 150g or something, wouldn’t the body still be oxidizing closer to 300g/day?
Also, I’d love if I could just keep gaining and then once every 3-4 months do RFL for 2 weeks to lose 4+ pounds of fat. It seems so great and simple and a way I could just keep gaining without taking a step back (assuming no muscle/strength loss). But if this is the case, why doesn’t everyone do this? Sticking to the diet is no problem for me (I keep seeing logs where people binge before the refeed, and it’s hard to relate to that lack of willpower honestly), but is there something to the idea of needing to “hold onto a top weight” to solidify the gains? I can’t see someone like Stu, Prof X, etc…doing something like that every 3-4 months…or at all lol.
[/quote]
What do you mean by “get used to?” The only way to find out what the body is “used to” (if we can even use this term properly) is through muscle biopsies and/or magnetic spectroscopy before and after exercise sessions or training periods or respiratory gas analysis during exercise in a lab! (I like the word adaption better, but whatever.)
The guideline is 1.25 g protein/lb LBM. So in the example you give, if someone were to follow the guideline properly by consuming 150 g pro, we’d have a dude who weighs 120 POUNDS! What buck-20 dude would even benefit from consuming the initial 300 grams of protein you speak of?
We’d also have to calculate nitrogen balance along with biopsies and gas analyzation during exercise to find out what you’re talking about.
And what I find detrimental is even thinking and wondering about this shit in the first place (a topic I went over ad nauseum a year ago) if many have success with it?
All those questions that do almost nothing for anyone!
Eg: I’ve seen so many people have success with it, but…
what if?
I was wondering what would happen if…
Mr./Dr. So-and-so doesn’t…
Mr./Dr. So-and-so said…
What do these things have to do with DEMONSTRATED RESULTS?!
Actually you did just that by saying, "I can’t see Stu and PX doing… "
Why doesn’t everyone do it?
Do all people heavily involved in nutriton and exercise all do the same shit? Should they? Why should they?
Not everyone gets themselves into a position where they realize they’re too fat and have NO patience in stripping this fat as fast as possible!
Does everyone know about the same information as one another. If I’m someone who wasn’t informed on the diet, or didn’t hear of the book, why would I be inclined to partake?
How do you know that some VERY ACCOMPLISHED bodybuilders (eg, elite or top amateur–far more accomplished in competitive bodybuilding than X) haven’t done PSMF diets? Colette Nelson integrates PSMF days into her prep. So does Dave Palumbo. SO have bodybuilders that are playing catchup because they mistimed things.
Reaching a top weight to solidify gains? Someone who’s over-fat in the first place isn’t in a position to beginw to reach somem “top weight” and can actually gain muscle if they’re fat.
Shelby Starnes actually recommends the type of mini-diets you speak of every few months and he’s damn more successful than anyone on this board in bodybuilding.
Someone like Stu would probably never have to bother with this sort of thing because the guy never allows himself to get out of shape.
And this diet has absolutely nothing to do with solidifying gains or reaching a top weight or gaining strength or size! It has to do with rapid fat loss, and that’s it! You can speak of whatever you like (I’m not the mayor here), but why bring up cases that have NOTHING to do with this extreme form of dieting that is supposed to be used for particular circumstances?
You mention PX, someone who has done a great job! However, you’re speaking of him as if he’s the model of sucessful bodybuilding. Most successful bodybuilders don’t employ a seemingly never ending 14-year gaining phase with no breaks or leaning out/cuttign phases (and I’m not talking about what he refers to as “cutting back”). Yeah, I get it, some people (and he says he falls into this group) don’t gain muscle while staying so darn lean, but there comes a point where adding more and more overall bodyweight does NOTHING for muscle gain.
(However, there is a bigger ceiling in gainign STRENGTH from increasing BODYWEIGHT with little accompanying muscle gain because of increased leverage and cushioning. Hugh Cassidy ATE his way through sticking points in his PL career.)
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
One thing I’m wondering is, I know many never lost strength or muscle on the diet, but would the sudden drop in protein not result in a significant loss of body protein (i.e. muscle)? Apparently not from some empirical evidence, but from what I understand the body gets used to a certain amount of protein so if I were eating say, 300g, and then on the RFL suddenly dropped to such low calories and protein closer to 150g or something, wouldn’t the body still be oxidizing closer to 300g/day?
Also, I’d love if I could just keep gaining and then once every 3-4 months do RFL for 2 weeks to lose 4+ pounds of fat. It seems so great and simple and a way I could just keep gaining without taking a step back (assuming no muscle/strength loss). But if this is the case, why doesn’t everyone do this? Sticking to the diet is no problem for me (I keep seeing logs where people binge before the refeed, and it’s hard to relate to that lack of willpower honestly), but is there something to the idea of needing to “hold onto a top weight” to solidify the gains? I can’t see someone like Stu, Prof X, etc…doing something like that every 3-4 months…or at all lol.
[/quote]
What do you mean by “get used to?” The only way to find out what the body is “used to” (if we can even use this term properly) is through muscle biopsies and/or magnetic spectroscopy before and after exercise sessions or training periods or respiratory gas analysis during exercise in a lab! (I like the word adaption better, but whatever.)
The guideline is 1.25 g protein/lb LBM. So in the example you give, if someone were to follow the guideline properly by consuming 150 g pro, we’d have a dude who weighs 120 POUNDS! What buck-20 dude would even benefit from consuming the initial 300 grams of protein you speak of?
No, it doesn’t use muscularly obese, hardcore lifters, but it does point to evidence that someone’s not gonna start resembling a camp victim from a SHORT TERM VLCD.
Well guys I’m going to get back on for the next 2 weeks. Then rotating back off for another cycle of bulking (until I have to make weight for my first PL meet then I’ll hop back on this again). Starting tomorrow.
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
Well guys I’m going to get back on for the next 2 weeks. Then rotating back off for another cycle of bulking (until I have to make weight for my first PL meet then I’ll hop back on this again). Starting tomorrow.[/quote]
Good!
[quote]attydeb2005 wrote:
Chimy looking forward to seeing the numbers after you get your new tape. Visually there is a huge difference. I’m so excited for you![/quote]
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
Well guys I’m going to get back on for the next 2 weeks. Then rotating back off for another cycle of bulking (until I have to make weight for my first PL meet then I’ll hop back on this again). Starting tomorrow.[/quote]
No, it doesn’t use muscularly obese, hardcore lifters, but it does point to evidence that someone’s not gonna start resembling a camp victim from a SHORT TERM VLCD. [/quote]
The study says they used a liquid diet with (40% protein, 49% carbohydrate, 11% fat). Although the results are cool. But it has little relevance to the rapid fat loss diet.
EDIT: My bad nyce, thought it meant low-carb diet, no low cal. You win! Haha. Interesting study. Got any on smaller time frames? Ie. wat you were talking about with the mini diets like 4wks??
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
Well guys I’m going to get back on for the next 2 weeks. Then rotating back off for another cycle of bulking (until I have to make weight for my first PL meet then I’ll hop back on this again). Starting tomorrow.[/quote]
good luck man.[/quote]
Thanks. After the massive carb-up I’ve had the last 3 days I think I’ll be glad to get back into my normal lower carb routine.
Reaching a top weight to solidify gains? Someone who’s over-fat in the first place isn’t in a position to beginw to reach somem “top weight” and can actually gain muscle if they’re fat.
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I agree with the rest of your post but I don’t get your response above. What I was saying is that some advanced guys say that you have to hold on to your top weight to better hold onto the muscle when you do cut (i.e rather than gaining and gaining until a top weight of say 260 and then just cutting right away, they hold that weight for a few weeks/months). I’m not saying it’s true or not, but some have said so.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Shelby Starnes actually recommends the type of mini-diets you speak of every few months and he’s damn more successful than anyone on this board in bodybuilding. [/quote]
I don’t believe he does a PSMF during that time, I believe it’s more in line with what Layne Norton does, just a scheduled cutting period. This seems to be more popular with people who have actual off seasons (i.e. they compete), so they have the mini-cuts between the real cuts.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
And this diet has absolutely nothing to do with solidifying gains or reaching a top weight or gaining strength or size! It has to do with rapid fat loss, and that’s it! You can speak of whatever you like (I’m not the mayor here), but why bring up cases that have NOTHING to do with this extreme form of dieting that is supposed to be used for particular circumstances? [/quote]
I wasn’t talking about that for during the diet, I was talking to the period right before the diet
Thanks for the link to the study, I’ll check it out in a bit.
OK so I DID read the the rest of the book lol and have a question. It seems nearly every time I see a reference to calories on the RFL from Lyle and others on his site I see between 400-1000, a few around 1200. Even Bricknyce I believe was at 1200. Something seems wrong to me then.
If an average sized guy who works out has 160lb of LBM thats 240-320g of protein, so on average lets say 280g. If 10g of that comes from vegetables then that’s 270g and lets say for simplicity it’s all from chicken which is 40 calories, 1g of fat and 8g of protein per ounce. That’s 270/8= 33.75oz x 40 calories = 1350 calories. Plus a pound of broccoli (I’d personally like to eat 1 pound per meal if it didn’t add too many calories) is about 160 calories + 10g of fish oil is ~100 calories so right there you’re already at 1610. That’s not even including carbs that would come from the recommended dairy or small amount peri-workout. Even at only 10g that brings calories up to 1650, low but not much lower than I and others have gotten to towards the end of a cut.
If maintenance is ~2700 calories that’s 1050 per day or 7350 per week = ~2lb of fat loss per week theoretically. Again, not much more than what’s claimed as “good” for a normal diet, and not the .5-.75lb per day mentioned a few times.
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
OK so I DID read the the rest of the book lol and have a question. It seems nearly every time I see a reference to calories on the RFL from Lyle and others on his site I see between 400-1000, a few around 1200. Even Bricknyce I believe was at 1200. Something seems wrong to me then.
If an average sized guy who works out has 160lb of LBM thats 240-320g of protein, so on average lets say 280g. If 10g of that comes from vegetables then that’s 270g and lets say for simplicity it’s all from chicken which is 40 calories, 1g of fat and 8g of protein per ounce. That’s 270/8= 33.75oz x 40 calories = 1350 calories. Plus a pound of broccoli (I’d personally like to eat 1 pound per meal if it didn’t add too many calories) is about 160 calories + 10g of fish oil is ~100 calories so right there you’re already at 1610. That’s not even including carbs that would come from the recommended dairy or small amount peri-workout. Even at only 10g that brings calories up to 1650, low but not much lower than I and others have gotten to towards the end of a cut.
If maintenance is ~2700 calories that’s 1050 per day or 7350 per week = ~2lb of fat loss per week theoretically. Again, not much more than what’s claimed as “good” for a normal diet, and not the .5-.75lb per day mentioned a few times.
Dude, I LOVE this shit and helping people out with it (nutrition and dietetics is my profession) and I’m god terms with you here. I think you need some tough love, because if (IF–I might be wrong) I recall correctly, you’ve done this same sort of stuff with training.
Design a fuckin’ diet and program and start them. STOP thinking!