I’m glad someone started one of these threads. Certain cutting diets can be too extreme and lead to loss of LBM, but it sounds like carb cycling can actually lead to an increase in LBM while decreasing BF.
CT lives by this now, as before he was strictly a keto guy. I’ve perceived the carb cycling approach to only benefit people who have an average to low BF%, while more extreme approaches (AD, Velocity, Atkins) will shed fat and lbs a lot quicker and are geared towards heftier folks.
Right now I’m experimenting with a hybrid of the two. It’s described in this article:
What is a type 3,2 and 1?? ok i missed something on my first read!!
Also and its one thing that i found different in a few articles on the web, some have zero carbs/day, and other have about 0.5g/bodyweight/day.
Also if you Shelby stuff(q/a) on elitefts he doesnt believe in zero carbs per day.
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The type I, II, and III days are how you split up your macros. First week is 3 days of type I and II, just one day of type III…so only one day of moderate carbs.
The type I and II days aren’t “zero” because there are traces of carbs in just about everything we eat (eggs, protein powders, veggies, etc). I keep them around 30-50 on the type I and II days.
I’ve been logging everything I eat and I started on Apr. 1 so if you want to see how it breaks down you can look at my Fit Day log:
Since I just came off the Velocity diet I’m going to have a type III day on Sunday (my heaviest weights day). So it’s 1 meal of pro/carbs and two shakes with pro/carbs.
Are you currently on a Shelby carb cycling program? Doesn’t he advocate high first, then transition slowly to very low?
I sort of naturally carb cycle in that the only time I really have carbs is my peri-wo Surge, my solid meal an hour after that, or a cheat meal. So days where I workout more (I’m working up to 2-a-days right now) will naturally have really high carbs, and off/cardio days will be virtually carb free.
Right now I’m triple dosing Surge Recovery over 2 daily sessions 2x a week, working up to 4 2-a-days is the goal in 2 or 3 weeks. Right now I’d say my 2-a-day carb intake is roughly 3-400g carbs, my single session days is usually around 150-200g carbs, and my low days are <50g carbs.
So far workouts have felt great, but its too early to really tell cause I’ve only been doing it for 4 days. I’ll keep you guys posted as things come along.
and fyi I’m 180, 5’11", ~8-9% bf, and not really an ectomorph. I used to be skinny-fat, so my metabolism isn’t screaming if that helps. I can also typically only lose weight going ketogenic, so this should be an interesting body comp experiment.
Besides a time last year when I did a keto diet, I always someway/how carb cycle. Either intentionally or just because. I have less carbs on off days and more on training days.
I feel that carb cycling is a great way to keep intensity high in the gym and fatloss burning on the diet. If done right, you should be able to keep your metabolism pretty hot throughout.
I’m currently doing a carb cycle I put together. About 150 CHO on Leg and Back day. 100 CHO on chest day and 50 CHO on shoulder days / off days. With the way my schedule is set up it looks like this. 150, 100, 150, 50, 150, 50, then refeed.
On my refeed day I try to eat as many carbs as I can while I keep my fat low. I don’t worry about my protein because it’ll add up throughout the day as I eat my food. I aim to get back to my basline weight (the weight I was on the scale the morning before the refeed day) in 3-4 days. I started with a refeed in the 600’s range. Worked my way up to 1,900 and change last week. I hit baseline in 2.5 days. Yesterday I ate 2,100 CHO’s.
Doing this approach, I’ve been losing fat pretty steadily. The giant refeed keeps my metabolism high so fat burning throughout the week is easy. To summarize Justin Harris (who has great success with his carb rotation approach), you can’t be afraid to go really low on your low days in fear of losing muscle. They’re meant to be low to burn the most fat. You also can’t be afraid of the food on your high/refeed days. They’re meant to boost your metabolism. Everyday has its purpose and you must push those days the most you can.
[quote]elusive wrote:
On my refeed day I try to eat as many carbs as I can while I keep my fat low. I don’t worry about my protein because it’ll add up throughout the day as I eat my food. I aim to get back to my basline weight (the weight I was on the scale the morning before the refeed day) in 3-4 days. I started with a refeed in the 600’s range. Worked my way up to 1,900 and change last week. I hit baseline in 2.5 days. Yesterday I ate 2,100 CHO’s.
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just curious, what are your carb sources on your refeed days? Are they clean refeeds with fruits, beans, rice etc, or are they more of a cheat day?
[quote]spadesofaces wrote:
elusive wrote:
On my refeed day I try to eat as many carbs as I can while I keep my fat low. I don’t worry about my protein because it’ll add up throughout the day as I eat my food. I aim to get back to my basline weight (the weight I was on the scale the morning before the refeed day) in 3-4 days. I started with a refeed in the 600’s range. Worked my way up to 1,900 and change last week. I hit baseline in 2.5 days. Yesterday I ate 2,100 CHO’s.
just curious, what are your carb sources on your refeed days? Are they clean refeeds with fruits, beans, rice etc, or are they more of a cheat day? [/quote]
I wouldn’t call it clean. lol. Pancakes with maple syrup. Fat free ice cream with chocolate syrup. Fat free chocolate pudding with fat free whipped cream. Fat free potato chips, muffins, waffles. Low fat pizza, texas toast, sorbet ect… With the amount im taking in, trying to eat from sources like rice, beans, fruits, oats and potatoes would pile in too much fiber. My fiber would be over 100 grams, which would be torture. Also, it would be harder to hit my carb goals with these foods because I can cram in much more carbs with sugary goodies.
[quote]spadesofaces wrote:
elusive wrote:
On my refeed day I try to eat as many carbs as I can while I keep my fat low. I don’t worry about my protein because it’ll add up throughout the day as I eat my food. I aim to get back to my basline weight (the weight I was on the scale the morning before the refeed day) in 3-4 days. I started with a refeed in the 600’s range. Worked my way up to 1,900 and change last week. I hit baseline in 2.5 days. Yesterday I ate 2,100 CHO’s.
just curious, what are your carb sources on your refeed days? Are they clean refeeds with fruits, beans, rice etc, or are they more of a cheat day? [/quote]
X2, holy shit how do you manage to get that much food? That’s over 8,000 calories from CHO alone! Do you know what your other macro breakdowns end up as? Do you log anything that you could show us an example?
[quote]phatkins187 wrote:
spadesofaces wrote:
elusive wrote:
On my refeed day I try to eat as many carbs as I can while I keep my fat low. I don’t worry about my protein because it’ll add up throughout the day as I eat my food. I aim to get back to my basline weight (the weight I was on the scale the morning before the refeed day) in 3-4 days. I started with a refeed in the 600’s range. Worked my way up to 1,900 and change last week. I hit baseline in 2.5 days. Yesterday I ate 2,100 CHO’s.
just curious, what are your carb sources on your refeed days? Are they clean refeeds with fruits, beans, rice etc, or are they more of a cheat day?
X2, holy shit how do you manage to get that much food? That’s over 8,000 calories from CHO alone! Do you know what your other macro breakdowns end up as? Do you log anything that you could show us an example?
Are you 500 lbs?![/quote]
I do log almost everything I do. I like being able to go back to make adjustments. Lately, I’ve been refeeding on Thursdays, so I go shopping on Wednesday morning to get my food. I count up all the macros and add them up so I can log it. This was for yesterday: 294 grams Pro, 91 grams Fat and 2,312 CHO. These were the totals of everything I bought and planned on eating. I ended up not finishing some stuff last night because I was STUFFED. I had a muffin left over and a bag of chips, so I estimated 2,100 CHO. You can skim off some protein too because of the unfinished foods (they were both fat free so it doesn’t effect the fat total). I’m a complete failure… lol.
If this thread is still going strong by next week, I’ll take pics and post them up. lol. You gotta see my stomach after the day is done. Good times!
Sounds like fun, not so nice on the wallet…these are tough times bro! Your profile pics are impressive so whatever you’re doing works!
Maybe you could shed some light on this question. Do you think refeeds are necessary or even a good idea when cutting? I’ve been on an extreme caloric deficit for almost six weeks now and I’ve dropped around 12 lbs of fat…my goal is to get somewhere around 10% (I’d estimate I’m between 13-15% today).
The fat loss has stalled somewhat and I was wondering if a refeed would be beneficial or detrimental to my progress. I’d estimate the most CHO I’ve had over the last 5.5 weeks is PWO Surge Recovery and I’ve dropped that now that I’m doing the Keto cycling. I’m going to eat around 170 CHO Sunday (based on the program recommendations).
DEFINITELY started a cool thread here so keep the posts coming. Lots of different angles you can take on the carb cycling approach.
[quote]phatkins187 wrote:
Sounds like fun, not so nice on the wallet…these are tough times bro! Your profile pics are impressive so whatever you’re doing works!
Maybe you could shed some light on this question. Do you think refeeds are necessary or even a good idea when cutting? I’ve been on an extreme caloric deficit for almost six weeks now and I’ve dropped around 12 lbs of fat…my goal is to get somewhere around 10% (I’d estimate I’m between 13-15% today).
The fat loss has stalled somewhat and I was wondering if a refeed would be beneficial or detrimental to my progress. I’d estimate the most CHO I’ve had over the last 5.5 weeks is PWO SURGE Recovery and I’ve dropped that now that I’m doing the Keto cycling. I’m going to eat around 170 CHO Sunday (based on the program recommendations).
DEFINITELY started a cool thread here so keep the posts coming. Lots of different angles you can take on the carb cycling approach.[/quote]
I DO feel that having a refeed here and there is important when going prolonged periods in a negative energy balance. Especially if you aren’t haven’t many carbs. Last year, I went about 9-10 weeks with a keto diet to try to get to my leanest. All was fine and I didn’t think I needed a refeed because I was “strict, in control and didn’t need to wander off my path”. I was losing fat just fine and if it wasn’t broken, I didn’t need to fix it.
By week 11, I hit a wall that I couldn’t avoid. I had a small refeed with about 250-300 carbs and I lost 2 lbs! Then for the next 3-4 weeks I grinded and grinded with cardio and more cardio. I lowered my cals and in about 4 more weeks I only lost another pound.
I said to myself, “next time I’ll incorporate refeeds into my diet so I won’t encounter this problem again”. Well, I’ve been dieting for 9 weeks (almost 10) and my fatloss has been steady with very little cardio. I think people are hesitant to refeed because “they’re doing soo well on their diet”. They’re also afraid that it’ll screw them up somehow. If a refeed is planned in advance, I don’t view it as a cheat… its part of the plan.
It’s purpose it to keep my metabolism high so I can’t be afraid of it. Even if I did over do it, its only 1 day out of the week and I’ll quickly bounce back. You’ll never know these answers until you experiment for yourself.
I feel ya, I’ve always been a better directions follower than “experiment for yourself” kinda dieter.
Even when I was training for my half marathon and eating clean (running between 25-30 miles a week) I didn’t lose much weight. Cardio has very little to do with fat loss in my experience and it’s 90% nutrition. So quit slaving away on the elliptical guys!
I’m going to switch things up a bit and use my Type III day for a refeed and replace fat calories with CHO calories. Good idea? Who knows…but I’m gonna experiment! Thanks elusive!
I should also note, that my training heavily influences my diet choices and vice versa. I basically set up my entire week to be able to refeed as large as I do. My training is high volume to make sure I deplete my body’s glycogen come refeed time. I also use this approach to really dig into my fat loss during times when my carbs are low. When my refeed day rolls around I’m confident that I busted my ass all week and that this day will do nothing but replensish my glycogen and boost my exhausted metabolism.
Elusive-what does your fats look like on your low carb days. Do you keep them constant? I have been considering incorperating refeeeds after reading a lot from skip and shelby. I think they generally keep them constant and fairly low (around like 60-70 grams).
I think I have been a little overzealous in my diet so far and have cut cals too drastically and am looking to incorperate a refeed in a couple of days. My plan for the week is 1.5 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight, 60-70 grams of fat, and then rotating carbs based on weight training never going over 100-150 a day. My fear is that going that low on carbs and fat during the week will make my body result in using protein for fuel but if I refeed well I am hoping to avoid it. Do you agree?
Sunday will be my refeed and also my heavy lifting day so I’ll “earn the carbs” so to speak. I’m going to keep the calories @ 2200 but try a macro breakdown of 60% C/ 30% F/ 10% P (kinda like an AD refeed).
