[quote]Modi wrote:
EDIT
PS Nice diagram by the way.[/quote]
I have WAAAAYYYY too much time on my hands today. We’Mre snowed in so I can’t go anywhere.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Modi wrote:
EDIT
PS Nice diagram by the way.
I have WAAAAYYYY too much time on my hands today. We’Mre snowed in so I can’t go anywhere.[/quote]
Sweet, get out the shovel, sounds like a good day for a back workout!
[quote]Modi wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Modi wrote:
EDIT
PS Nice diagram by the way.
I have WAAAAYYYY too much time on my hands today. We’Mre snowed in so I can’t go anywhere.
Sweet, get out the shovel, sounds like a good day for a back workout![/quote]
Too much elbow flexion and thus bi involvement ;-]
[quote]Modi wrote:
Sweet, get out the shovel, sounds like a good day for a back workout![/quote]
Yes, but only using a limited elbow flexion while shovelling.
Just don’t use too much arm flexion or you might end up building your biceps…wait a minute, I think we have finally answered the question of the original poster!
[quote]Modi wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Modi wrote:
EDIT
PS Nice diagram by the way.
I have WAAAAYYYY too much time on my hands today. We’Mre snowed in so I can’t go anywhere.
Sweet, get out the shovel, sounds like a good day for a back workout![/quote]
Ghostinthesystem- What is your primary goal? Is it gymnastics strength holds like the iron cross, planche, lever, maltese, etc?
(I must say, at 5’10", leverage is NOT in your favor probably…and at 185, that’s pretty damned heavy for a gymnast.)
Inversed pull-ups. They are extreme!!!
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Whenever I am trying to bring up a lagging body part I train it more often. I have done the same for shoulders and now they stand out pretty significantly whereas they used to be much less developed in relation to everything else.
[/quote]
I just wanted to jump in here and say that I agree with this 100%. Any time there is a body part weakness one of the best ways to bring it up is with an increased frequency of training.
–
AC
A few sets of curls doesn’t hurt, but it shouldn’t be the mainstay in the program.
Bottom line, rows and chins/pullups(especially neutral grip) are much better for overall development of your biceps, while curls will only isolate them directly.
[quote]gainera2582 wrote:
A few sets of curls doesn’t hurt, but it shouldn’t be the mainstay in the program.
Bottom line, rows and chins/pullups(especially neutral grip) are much better for overall development of your biceps, while curls will only isolate them directly. [/quote]
Dumb statement. No shit that curls will isolate them directly…which is the goal if you want very developed biceps. Pull ups and chins are meant FOR GREAT BACK DEVELOPMENT, not for great developmement of your biceps. Your biceps may contract, however, if they are the muscle group receiving most of the force from the movement…YOU ARE DOING THEM WRONG.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
gainera2582 wrote:
A few sets of curls doesn’t hurt, but it shouldn’t be the mainstay in the program.
Bottom line, rows and chins/pullups(especially neutral grip) are much better for overall development of your biceps, while curls will only isolate them directly.
Dumb statement. No shit that curls will isolate them directly…which is the goal if you want very developed biceps. Pull ups and chins are meant FOR GREAT BACK DEVELOPMENT, not for great developmement of your biceps. Your biceps may contract, however, if they are the muscle group receiving most of the force from the movement…YOU ARE DOING THEM WRONG.
[/quote]
Now, here is an interesting spin.
It seems that most of the newbies I see doing heavy curls are getting a lot of back work from them too.
Probably doing those wrong as well…
[quote]Modi wrote:
Professor X wrote:
gainera2582 wrote:
A few sets of curls doesn’t hurt, but it shouldn’t be the mainstay in the program.
Bottom line, rows and chins/pullups(especially neutral grip) are much better for overall development of your biceps, while curls will only isolate them directly.
Dumb statement. No shit that curls will isolate them directly…which is the goal if you want very developed biceps. Pull ups and chins are meant FOR GREAT BACK DEVELOPMENT, not for great developmement of your biceps. Your biceps may contract, however, if they are the muscle group receiving most of the force from the movement…YOU ARE DOING THEM WRONG.
Now, here is an interesting spin.
It seems that most of the newbies I see doing heavy curls are getting a lot of back work from them too.
Probably doing those wrong as well…[/quote]
Well, yeah. They’re doing them wrong. They are NOT isolating their biceps because their biceps are not strong enough to handle the weight they think they can be using.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
GhostNtheSystem wrote:
Sometimes one hits a plateau and would like alternative exercises. Luckily even if there is a shortage of alternative exercises, the cup overfloweth with smart-ass commentary.
While, I haven’t looked at this thread unitl today this caught my eye. The thing is that you should ALREADY be doing all the ‘alternative’ exercises. Maybe not close-grip pull-ups. But I don’t think they’re a substitute for curls. My own take on it is this: if you arms are less than say 16 inches, curls are not necessarily the best use of your time and energy in a workout. They’re more icing on the cake. The bigger you get the more of a disservice you’re doing yourself by ignoring direct isolation work.
I disagree with this completely. Direct biceps work should be some part of training from the beginning. They possibly don’t need their own day like some more advanced trainers do, but to act as if they should be ignored is also a mistake. I just don’t see why people act as if adding some curls in on back day is such a big deal. It isn’t.
Let’s stop this shit because it just doesn’t make sense and most of the guys you see with great arm development DID NOT avoid training them directly in the beginning or any other time.[/quote]
I’d agree that they can’t hurt even for beginners. I also think what you said about possibly not needing a separate arm day [if direct arm work is used from the beginning] is right. I think it somewhat depends on base level of strength. Someone who is only capable of curling 30 lbs, is new to lifitng, and recovers poorly as of yet is better off throwing in a few sets of heavy [for them] curls at the end of a workout than devoting an entire day to arms that could be better spent with a focus on compound work and really building strength. Would you not think?
What I was really getting it is those beginners who do isolation work even before compound exercises in a workout. There’s certainly a place for pre-exhaustion techniques but I don’t think at that level. It’s also a problem when beginners consciously or subconsicously hold back earlier in the workout so they have a little zip left for isolation work.
Recovery can also be an issue for beginners in a way that it is not for seasoned lifters. This is one reason why I think think a separate arm-day can impede other training days at that level. If someone has really hammered the compounds and wants to throw back a few sets of curls at the end of a workout with whatever they’ve got left, even if that ain’t much, it could only help them.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
What I was really getting it is those beginners who do isolation work even before compound exercises in a workout. There’s certainly a place for pre-exhaustion techniques but I don’t think at that level. It’s also a problem when beginners consciously or subconsicously hold back earlier in the workout so they have a little zip left for isolation work.
[/quote]
I think these beginners are doing isolation work first out of ignorance, not as a pre-exhaustion technique.
They want big arms so the train their biceps first (forgetting that there are muscles on the back side of the arm as well). And not realizing that because their biceps are fatigued, their back workout will suffer. And since their back can’t grow because they are too prefatigued to lift heavy enough weights, their bodies will only support so much arm growth.
I would much rather see the beginner hammer the compound movements and then finish off the workout with some direct arm work, rather than starting with it, or dedicating a whole day to it.
[quote]Scott aka Rice wrote:
whenever I read the word plateau, 98% of the time those people don’t eat enough food. The other 2% are the guys who overtrain so drastically they can’t possibly make gains. Curl an extra sandwich into your mouth every day and I guarantee you’ll see gains. You can taste the progress.[/quote]
that’s some funny stuff. Kudo’s
[quote]Modi wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
What I was really getting it is those beginners who do isolation work even before compound exercises in a workout. There’s certainly a place for pre-exhaustion techniques but I don’t think at that level. It’s also a problem when beginners consciously or subconsicously hold back earlier in the workout so they have a little zip left for isolation work.
I think these beginners are doing isolation work first out of ignorance, not as a pre-exhaustion technique.
They want big arms so the train their biceps first (forgetting that there are muscles on the back side of the arm as well). And not realizing that because their biceps are fatigued, their back workout will suffer. And since their back can’t grow because they are too prefatigued to lift heavy enough weights, their bodies will only support so much arm growth.
I would much rather see the beginner hammer the compound movements and then finish off the workout with some direct arm work, rather than starting with it, or dedicating a whole day to it.[/quote]
I think it would be better if people quit using the terms “compound” and “isolation” so damn much and went back to training “big muscle groups” first and then “smaller muscle groups” last. It was a simple concept to begin with and it still is. Because people are now trying to sell books and become “leading fitness experts” we now get terms that do nothing but cause this much confusion from beginners.
As a beginner, is just made sense to do back and biceps on the same day (even though I have trained many other ‘smaller’ body parts on “back day”). You train back first and then biceps. None of this required me to ignore “compound movements” or “isolation movements”. It was a given that ALL of it would be necessary to build a complete physique.
We’ve seen people post pics here where their front delts are hugely overdeveloped because they have been avoiding all isolation work because an article told them so. How could anyone not see that coming? OF COURSE your body is going to be lopsided if you ignore parts of it as if they don’t really matter. Just because someone presents info as if it “the newest and latest” info doesn’t mean it makes sense, especially when there are decades of real world results that can be observed.
I honestly think the only reason this has taken hold the way it has was by degrading bodybuilding in the process. By getting people to ignore the guys who have been doing this for over half a century is about the only way to get them to ignore what has worked for so damn long.
[quote]hueyOT wrote:
Modi wrote:
hueyOT wrote:
if you need me to clarify, all i’m trying to say is that you minimize/limit biceps flexion IN COMPARISON to the more commonly used incorrect methods of performing back exercises.gym. but i think it’s pretty clear, now.[/quote]
You are not getting it, sir. Muscles don’t flex. They contract. Joints flex and extend. You can’t sound authoritative unless you speak the language.
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
hueyOT wrote:
Modi wrote:
hueyOT wrote:
if you need me to clarify, all i’m trying to say is that you minimize/limit biceps flexion IN COMPARISON to the more commonly used incorrect methods of performing back exercises.gym. but i think it’s pretty clear, now.
You are not getting it, sir. Muscles don’t flex. They contract. Joints flex and extend. You can’t sound authoritative unless you speak the language.
[/quote]
The acion of the biceps is FLEXION and SUPINATION. Please get off that high horse. It’s too big for you.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
a) building muscle requires you to consume more calories and nutrients than you use every day [/quote]
Isn’t that too broad a blanket? For the overfat, hasn’t it been shown that heavy progressive resistance can lead to muscle hypertrophy even while on a calorie deficit?
You know, I am still looking for the criteria for when a trainee is not a beginner any longer. very subjective, eh?
I can’t recall who said it here, but it was something along the lines of 90% of weightlifting enthusiasts label themselves as in the top 10%.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
jp_dubya wrote:
hueyOT wrote:
Modi wrote:
hueyOT wrote:
if you need me to clarify, all i’m trying to say is that you minimize/limit biceps flexion IN COMPARISON to the more commonly used incorrect methods of performing back exercises.gym. but i think it’s pretty clear, now.
You are not getting it, sir. Muscles don’t flex. They contract. Joints flex and extend. You can’t sound authoritative unless you speak the language.
The acion of the biceps is FLEXION and SUPINATION. Please get off that high horse. It’s too big for you.[/quote]
Get off the high horse? I like it. I can turn around and see you.
The action of the biceps is flexion…of the elbow. Your good advice is drowned out by your being a pompous ass some times.