Questions for Volume Junkies: Male vs Female? Intermediate vs Advanced?

Bigger Stronger Leaner
21

Bingo. Note how the pseudoproblem of How much volume/how many workouts per week is best? simply vanishes when you stop thinking in terms of workouts/week.

What people lose sight of is, with respect to the body’s ability to recover from intense physical exercise, the week is an utterly arbitrary construct. So from a metabolic/anabolic perspective, there is literally zero reason to think in terms of the calendar week. Let it go.

Didn’t read the entire thread–apologies if this point was made previously.

6 Likes
22

Some ideas a took from Dr. Israetel(Son of Gimli, Son of Gloin). Not everyone will fit into this organizational structure, but it’s easier to think about this stuff if you make up some “rules.”

You have your individual workouts.

Then you have your “microcycle” or “training week” or whatever you want to call it. This is how long it takes you to work through your individual workouts. 1 week, 8 days, whatever.

Then your microcycles or “weeks” stack up to build a “month” or “block” or “meso cycle.”

Everyone can handle some number of sets per bodypart, per week. Let’s call it 10 sets. If you hit a part once a week (microcycle), you do all 10 sets on one day. If you hit a part twice a week, you do 5 sets each day. You don’t somehow get to magically double the volume, you just spread it out differently.

A pro bodybuilder told me a hypertrophy workout is 2-4 sets of 2-4 lifts per body part. So the science numbers aren’t too far off of real gym numbers. These are sets pretty close to failure.

It’s natural to gradually increase the number of sets of the “month” or “block” or “mesocycle.” Like maybe week one, just starting out, you do 8-9 sets. Then 4-6 weeks later, maybe you’re up to 10-12 sets.

To monitor how much work is too much, keep track of your resting heart rate as you sleep. The night after a workout it will go “up.” A good workout might raise your resting heart rate a few beats, or like 5% or something. Too much will raise your resting heart rate like 10%, or 5-6 beats. That’s when you know to look out.

Here’s way more.

3 Likes
23

Someone joked in a recent thread about “The fastest way to grow muscle” that he would like to see a thread about the slowest way to grow muscle. I think it was @RT_Nomad. That go me thinking, that it might actually be the best way to lift and grow over a lifetime, that is, the minimum volume and frequency required to achieve significant but modest gains, compounding over decades, so that you get to be big when your older, injury free, limited joint wear, no PEDs required, normal eating etc. Just enough to keep the ledger in growth rather than decline. After all, any young fella can get huge, but what’s cooler than a jacked old fella?

3 Likes
24

If it comes fast, it doesn’t last!

2 Likes
25

When you’re training for “Strength” or “Performance” you count Lifts, not sets. Ideally you’ll get your lifts in without hitting failure. So 5 sets of 5 reps with 72.5% is 25 “lifts.” Those 5 “sets” don’t get counted like “bodybuilder sets.”

And the number of lifts you do per workout depends on the Intensity or weight you use. So a “heavy” workout might be 8 lifts with 87.5%. And a “light” workout might be 24 lifts with 75%.

Number of lifts x Weight = “Volume” or “Tonnage.” Everyone can handle some amount of “weekly” tonnage. Or workload per microcycle if you’re using an 8 day week, or whatever). Let’s say it’s 30,000 pounds. If you choose to lift twice you don’t get to magically double the tonnage, you just divide the work over multiple sessions.

Over the course of a “month” or “block” or “mesocycle” the tonnage will wave up and down as you lift different weights for different total reps. Often the total volume or tonnage will fall as you move forward. The intensity (weight) goes up and the number of lifts goes down. This might be “bad” for bodybuilders, or those seeking hypertrophy, but it’s the natural way for strength.

The important thing is that in the future, when you do that next “month” or “block” or “mesocycle,” you lift Heavier than the first time. So you get more tonnage or volume than the first time, with the same number of lifts. Because you’re stronger.

Here’s an article from Louie.

A MULTIYEAR PLAN

Louie Simmons
Fri Oct 14, 2016

Renowned sports scientist A. S. Medvedyev wrote a text called A System of Multi-Year Training in Weightlifting (1986). It was translated by Andrew Charniga, Jr. It presents a system to train for and compete in the Olympics. Of course there is much information about training of all respects and how to achieve results at the correct time in a long-term plan. Someone once said, “When you fail to plan, you plan to fail.”

Another highly esteemed sports scientist, Tudor Bompa, wrote several books on all subject matter including long-term periodization. In Bompa’s book entitled Theory and Methodology of Training (1997), he discusses training of many lengths of time. The Greek Philostratus, an ancient scholar, proposed a four-day system, referred to as the Teter system. Men such as Tudor Bompa, A. S. Medvedyev, and the late Y. V. Verkoshansky and others such as the Bulgarians Felix Meerson and Hiden had much to do with the short- and long-term planning of the Bulgarian weight training system (Enver Turkileri, 1997).

Long-term planning must also address not only adaption but also restoration and how to avoid accommodation. If you read the book Adaption in Sports Training, a weekly plan turns into a monthly and then a yearly plan and of course a multiple-year plan.

By 1983, I had been participating in powerlifting for 27 years, but I had no formal plan; my plans or dreams turned into mostly nightmares. I realized that the key to success was part physics, part biomechanics, and very importantly mathematics. Here, I present a long-term plan that has passed the test of time. Dave “Neutron” Hoff has used this plan since he was 14 years old with a 400-pound squat. At 19 years old he had a 1005-pound squat. Now at 22 years old, he has a 1075-pound squat and a total of 2750 pounds at 260 bodyweight.

All of my methodologies came from the former Soviet Union system and their highly respected sports scientists and coaches. The strongest lifters lift the heaviest weight most often. I don’t mean lifting 20 pounds heavier than their training partners on max effort day, but on the dynamic day. Many people with a small grasp of training can’t understand this. But this is simply math, as outlined below.

For speed strength the combination is 50-60% barbell weight, plus 25% band tension at the top. I based this on 1000-pound squatters; we have 16 in all. A 1000-pound squatter would use 500, 550, and 600 in a three-week wave with 250 pounds of band tension at the top and 100 pounds at the bottom due to band shrinkage. So 500 pounds of bar weight is 600 pounds in the bottom and 750 pounds at the top. The second week 550 pounds of bar weight is 650 pounds in the bottom and 800 pounds at the top, and the third week wave is 600 pounds of bar weight, which is 750 pounds in the bottom and 850 pounds at the top. This is truly accommodation. But the most important point I will be making is for every 50-pound increase, a jump in volume of 600 pounds must be made . Of course on max effort day you must max out at the current strength you are at, plus have good form and train your weaknesses. But let’s look at the mathematical program that will guide you.

The Plan: From a 400 to a 1000-Pound Squat

400-Pound Max Squat

percentage weight (pounds) reps lifts band tension volume
50% 200 12×2 24 25% 4800
55% 220 12×2 24 25% 5280
60% 240 10×2 20 25% 480
Bar Speed is 0.8 m/s avg

450-Pound Max Squat

percent weight (pounds) reps lifts band tension volume
50% 225 12×2 24 25% 5400
55% 250 12×2 24 25% 6000
60% 270 10×2 20 25% 5400
Bar Speed is 0.8 m/s avg

500-Pound Max Squat

percent weight (pounds) reps lifts band tension volume
50% 250 12×2 24 25% 6000
55% 275 12×2 24 25% 6600
60% 300 10×2 20 25% 6000
Bar Speed is 0.8 m/s avg

550-Pound Max Squat

percent Weight (pounds) reps lifts band tension volume
50% 275 12×2 24 25% 6600
55% 300 12×2 24 25% 7200
60% 330 10×2 20 25% 6
Bar Speed is 0.8 m/s avg

600-Pound Max Squat

percent weight (pounds) reps lifts band tension volume
50% 300 12×2 24 25% 7200
55% 330 12×2 24 25% 7920
60% 360 10×2 20 25% 7200
Bar Speed is 0.8 m/s avg

650-Pound Max Squat

percent weight (pounds) reps lifts band tension volume
50% 325 12×2 24 25% 7800
55% 355 12×2 24 25% 8520
60% 390 10×2 20 25% 7800
Bar Speed is 0.8 m/s avg

700-Pound Max Squat

percent weight (pounds) reps lifts band tension volume
50% 350 12×2 24 25% 8400
55% 385 12×2 24 25% 9240
60% 420 10×2 20 25% 8400
Bar Speed is 0.8 m/s avg

750-Pound Max Squat

percent weight (pounds) reps lifts band tension volume
50% 375 12×2 24 25% 9000
55% 425 12×2 24 25% 10,200
60% 450 10×2 20 25% 9000
Bar Speed is 0.8 m/s avg

800-Pound Max Squat

percent weight (pounds) reps lifts band tension volume
50% 400 12×2 24 25% 9600
55% 440 12×2 24 25% 10,560
60% 480 10×2 20 25% 9600
Bar Speed is 0.8 m/s avg

850-Pound Max Squat

percent weight (pounds) reps lifts band tension volume
50% 425 12×2 24 25% 10,200
55% 470 12×2 24 25% 11,280
60% 510 10×2 20 25% 10,200
Bar Speed is 0.8 m/s avg

900-Pound Max Squat

percent weight (pounds) reps lifts band tension volume
50% 450 12×2 24 25% 10,800
55% 495 12×2 24 25% 11,880
60% 540 10×2 20 25% 10,800
Bar Speed is 0.8 m/s avg

950-Pound Max Squat

percent weight (pounds) reps lifts band tension volume
50% 475 12×2 24 25% 11,400
55% 520 12×2 24 25% 12,480
60% 570 10×2 20 25% 11,400
Bar Speed is 0.8 m/s avg

1000-Pound Max Squat

percent weight (pounds) reps lifts band tension volume
50% 500 12×2 24 25% 12,000
55% 550 12×2 24 25% 13,200
60% 600 10×2 20 25% 12,00
Bar Speed is 0.8 m/s avg

Math plays a major role in increasing strength. If you can do the wave at your current max with the correct bar speed for speed strength development (about 0.8 m/s), you will create a new squat record on meet day. You must also raise max effort records all year long and work on your lagging muscle groups to complement the speed work, done 72 hours before.

I will now give you some parameters of how to establish a contest max on a box squat with no knee wraps or suit straps up. Jean Fry, a 123-pound female, made a box squat with 280 pounds plus 140 pounds of band tension at the top, which equals 420 pounds. She did a strong 415-pound squat at a meet. As you can see, the top value is a strong indicator of how much you can squat at meet time. On the high end 500 pounds of bar weight and 375 pounds of band tension will translate to a squat of at least 800 pounds. Tony Ramos made 470 pounds of bar weight plus 375 pounds of band tension on a box squat and squatted 810 pounds at the Cincinnati Pro-Am at 181 pounds bodyweight. A bar weight of 550 pounds plus 375 pounds of band tension will translate to an 850-pound squat. A bar weight of 600 pounds plus 375 pounds of band tension will, and has many times, produce a 900-pound squat. A bar weight of 650 pounds plus 375 pounds of band tension will produce a 950-pound squat. A bar weight of 600 pounds plus 440 pounds of band tension will equate to a 1000-pound squat. A bar weight of 650 pounds plus 440 pounds of band tension will produce a squat of 1050 pounds.

Tony Bolognone squatted the following:

1000 pounds with 600 pounds bar weight and 440 pounds band tension

1050 pounds with 650 pounds bar weight and 440 pounds band tension

1100 pounds with 700 pounds bar weight and 440 pounds band tension

1130 pounds with 720 pounds bar weight and 440 pounds band tension

I can show many such studies like this. After all, we have 16 men who squat at least 1000 pounds officially, plus 17 men who deadlift 800 pounds. Remember, the volume must match your max strength, your form must be flawless, and you must raise your max effort exercises and fortify your weaknesses. When using a variety of bars to squat with, you must calculate the different maxes from a contest max. Try a Safety Squat bar max, a 14-inch cambered bar max, a front squat max, and so forth. By using different bars you will avoid the volume accommodation effect. Tudor Bompa told me I was doing flat loading, but after explaining the rotation of bars and special exercises, I showed how to avoid all manners of the law of accommodation. All progress in the classical lifts, meaning the snatch, clean-jerk, squat, bench, and deadlift, depends on controlling volume and the intensity zones laid out by many European sports scientists. I found this to be the most important factor in making continuous gains and preventing injuries. It is very important to maintain proper bar speed while doing all sets. Just look at the equation F = mA (force equals mass times acceleration), or look at the definition of power. Power is defined as work done divided by the time used to do the work, or P = W / t . The more powerful one is, the faster he or she can do the work. Next, match the work by your physical capabilities by controlling volume on speed development day with moderate intensity zones. On max effort day, 72 hours later, use a lower volume, 50% on average, with maximal intensity, hopefully more than 100%. Lastly, it is also important to perfect your form. This method will prolong your lifting career and make it possible to lift your most.

If you think that article is cool, search of “Westside Barbell Podcast, Episode 8, The importance of monitoring volume and intensity in training.”

Here’s Boris. He’s pretty good.

4 Likes
26

More good stuff.

2 Likes
27

A simpler way that’s still good enough for world records.

Not everyone likes “linear” or “western” periodization with heavier weights and less reps over time. But Coan did.

1 Like
28

I was using the term ‘week’ more as a unit to discuss benefits of training density with respect to tonnage, it could be 5 days or 100, was simply using it as a unit. Many of the responses i’ve seen on this thread speak to tonnage, and I guess this is where things get blurry for me…
If tonnage per training session increasing is a sign of progress, which obviously it is, then it stand to reason that tonnage increase per week would also be a indicator of progress too.

Lets say i run a PPL X1 over the course of 1 week and accumulate ~75k tonnage throughout that week (hypothetical numbers), then i do PPL X1 again the following week for ~76k tonnage. Clearly progress has been made.
But if i were to perform PPL X2 over 1 week and accumulate ~150k tonnage, then do the same the week following for ~151k tonnage… To me, this indicates a couple things:

  1. the same amount of progress was made with either method
  2. the overall weekly tonnage is quite literally double on the PPLx2 week
  3. This could indicate that the same amount progress is taking twice as many sessions with the PPLx2 compared to PPLx1, and there’s a couple ways to look at this… the increase from 75k tonnage to 76k tonnage was a 1.03% tonnage increase, and the 150k to 151k increase was 0.67% tonnage increase.
  4. do we consider tonnage progression per training session to be the lone factor to muscle gain, and simply track tonnage increase per session over time?

going to tag @FlatsFarmer because he was mentioning tonnage a lot.

Thanks for taking the time to respond

1 Like
29

I agree with this, it’s actually the main reason i’ve staved off the urges of steroids for so long. The interest is there, but its not worthwhile if i’m not equipped to manage the gains properly.

1 Like
30

so the weekly tonnage is essentially irrelevant so long as intensity in the main lifts increases? If this is the case, i have thought wrongly of training for years.
I prioritize hypertrophy, but I think it is misplaced to write off strength training in a hypertrophy program… I do bodybuilder style training sessions, but prioritize the big 3 (squats, deadlifts, and incline bench for me).

I will need some time to look more into the resources you’ve shared. Block training, or periodization (i know they aren’t the same) has caught my eye for some time, but i never read into them.. I had assumed shortly into the articles that they were meant for strength training, and i had separated strength and hypertrophy too much in my own head.

Perhaps it is overdue for me to read more powerlifting articles in attempts to find a nice middle-ground for powerbuilding. Thank you for putting so much effort into your responses, it means a great deal to me.

1 Like
31

Short answer:

Yes, tonnage can go down as intensity goes up. For both strength and size lifting.

Dropping from lighter sets of 12 to heavier sets of 3 over the training cycle worked for Ed Coan in powerlifting.

And doing ten sets of 10 reps in one bodybuilding workout, then 6 sets of 6 during the next workout is OK.

On the other hand its not Wrong to keep tonnage up and increasing. Its just another style.

1 Like
32

I guess this is where it still doesn’t make sense to me. I find it strange that total tonnage over time seems to be irrelevant so long as you are making progress. I don’t have research to back my opinions about this, but it makes a lot more sense to have:
A) PPLx2 in one week, with 0.5% tonnage increase (let’s use 25k tonnage per day) per P/P/L training day
Rather than
B) PPLx1 in one week, with 1% tonnage increase (25k tonnage per day here as well) per P/P/L training day

Not that lifting is this exact, but if these values were to stay the same course - the PPLx2 per week would have a higher tonnage % increase factor literally after the first week. At least in terms of compounding “interest”.

Even if the tonnage increase was the same between the two frequencies, could it really be argued that doing more volume is effectively pointless if the tonnage increase stays the same? Do we actually judge gains based on % of tonnage increase without respect to total tonnage lifted?

While you’re at it, do you know if the chicken or egg came first? :sweat_smile:

1 Like
33

The answers are in the gym!

You’ve tried it one way, now scheme up a 6 week plan and try it the other way.

2 Likes
34

Just jumping in to say I really enjoy your responses @FlatsFarmer. You give some very well-explained theory/ concept material, but at the end are still practical enough to end with a “let’s find out.”

@Andrewgen_Receptors this was a fun thread.

I like the compounding interest analogy. I’d offer maybe we should think of exercise in more a market development mindset than portfolio investing. We don’t know which option will provide a home run, but it is relatively low-cost to try many. On the flip side, whatever is successful will eventually be disrupted and we’re best-served to experiment ahead of that inevitability.

4 Likes
35

I’m glad it made some kind of sense. With different guys using different terms and all the sciencey mumbo-jumbo it can be tough to get everyone on the same page enough to even talk about these ideas.

I like the idea about it being low risk to try some stuff out, looking for a big score. And about not painting yourself into a corner.

Sometimes I like to think about it like Breakin’ All the Rules. Like I’ve been doing this 1 routine, following the guidelines and rules and making my slow, small gains. Then after awhile switch up volume/intensity, do the opposite of following those rules and just Rob The Bank! Grab some easy loot.

2 Likes
36

Dude, like those videos are brilliant.

Thank you so much.

1 Like
37

I’m glad you got something out of them!

Dr. Mike does a good job of laying everything out and talking his way through these tricky lifting concepts.

At first I was a little turned off by his silly jargon (MRV, MEV?) and the length of his stuff (eight 30 minute videos on how to add reps to a set?).

Then I finally sat through one and became a fan.

2 Likes
38

EXACTLY why I’ve never sat through one of his videos. Guess I have to now

1 Like