Pyramid or Not?

Training Bodybuilding
101

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Wow, I know you said you don’t want to pay to go to a real gym, but in all seriousness, you are probably going to outgrow this gym real fast if you continue to train and eat with a purpose.[/quote]

Haha, I only have a year left of school here so I’ll tough it out in there for another year. Fortunately I’m essentially the only one that trains there though as there is a grand total of 160 kg in plates for the entire “gym”, which isn’t even gonna last all that long for me alone!

[quote]
While not ideal, some ideas might be:
-chest- flat BB bench, BB floor press, partner resisted push-ups (with feet up on bench if you want to hit the upper pecs more), push-up flies, Giordona dips

-back- Deadlift, bent over row, shrug, power clean, pronated lat pull-down, supinated lat pull-down

-quads- BB back squats, BB front squats, BB split squats, BB box/bench squat, walking lunges, forward lunges, backward lunges, BB hack squat, leg extensions

-shoulders- standing BB shoulder press, seated BB shoulder press, behind the head BB shoulder press, BB push press, wide grip upright row, handstand push-ups (feet against wall)[/quote]
Regarding the upright rows, I’ve heard that these can easily mess up your shoulders. Any truth to that? I do them occasionally and don’t feel any pain from them, but to be completely honest I don’t think I’m moving enough weight on it for it to cause any problems.

[quote]
-triceps- close grip BB bench, close grip floor press, “rolling BB extensions”, overhead triceps extensions, dips (trying to keep body as upright as possible), pushdowns (depending on how your pull-down machine is set up), partner resisted “diamond push-ups”[/quote]
No love for PJR pullovers or skullcrushers? I’ve been doing PJRs with pretty good results from them so far, so is there any reason not to do them, or just an omission?

[quote]
-biceps- standing BB/ez bar curls, seated BB/ez bar curls, BB/ez bar drag curls, high cable curls (depending on how your lat pull-down machine is set up)

-calves- one legged calf raise, standing BB calf raise, seated BB calf raise (place loaded bar across your thighs and do seated calf raises), donkey calf raise (if by chance the girls soccer/futbol happens to workout when you do, have one, or a few, of them sit on your back), Farmer’s walk (place loaded BB on your back and just walk around the gym), incline walking on a treadmill[/quote]
Wow, some great ideas for calves here. Up to now I’ve just done something similar to what Dante described where you essentially do a calf raise for every step on an incline, but I’m not really heavy enough for this to have any great effect and the soleus (or gastrocnemicus, whichever one is used when knees are bent) is being pretty much completely neglected.

[quote]
-hamstrings- Romanian deadlift, Sumo deadlift, natural glute/ham raise, BB step-ups, leg curls (many of the quad exercises as well as deadlifts from the floor will also tax the hamstrings)

Again, your situation is far from ideal, but as you can see, there are still a fair number of options available to you.[/quote]
Thanks for all the suggestions! I’ll definitely try out all of these variations as soon as I can.

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
What kind of chest press machine only lets you add 20 kg of weight (which is like 45 pounds)? I think I started stronger than that.[/quote]
Haha, guess there was a slight miscommunication there. What I meant is that the machine goes up to 100 kg (which I can do pretty easily) and I could probably add max. 20 kg in freeweights.

102

to the person who asked about doing CGBP first or extensions…

why would you NOT do your compound first? especially if the goal is progression

my philosophy is to train the heaviest lifts first and work down in terms of CNS impact/difficulty

so on a chest day

im gonna do a chest lift first

then maybe my hardest curl to give the tris some recovery time

then do my hardest tricep movement

then do another chest movement probaly a H.S. machine or Dumbells

then another curl, maybe a preacher curl or some kind of curl involving cables

then my final tricep movement

after that i may add in a finisher for a pump if i feel like it or do a set of abs or calves.

when you stall on an exercise you switch that exercise with one of equal or close to equal intensity you dont switch out chest flyes for BB bench and you dont switch out lat pulldowns for deadlifts. you should have a number of compounds youre alternating and a number of secondaries you can alternate between as well.

103

[quote]Scorzerci wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Wow, I know you said you don’t want to pay to go to a real gym, but in all seriousness, you are probably going to outgrow this gym real fast if you continue to train and eat with a purpose.

Haha, I only have a year left of school here so I’ll tough it out in there for another year. Fortunately I’m essentially the only one that trains there though as there is a grand total of 160 kg in plates for the entire “gym”, which isn’t even gonna last all that long for me alone!

While not ideal, some ideas might be:
-chest- flat BB bench, BB floor press, partner resisted push-ups (with feet up on bench if you want to hit the upper pecs more), push-up flies, Giordona dips

-back- Deadlift, bent over row, shrug, power clean, pronated lat pull-down, supinated lat pull-down

-quads- BB back squats, BB front squats, BB split squats, BB box/bench squat, walking lunges, forward lunges, backward lunges, BB hack squat, leg extensions

-shoulders- standing BB shoulder press, seated BB shoulder press, behind the head BB shoulder press, BB push press, wide grip upright row, handstand push-ups (feet against wall)
Regarding the upright rows, I’ve heard that these can easily mess up your shoulders. Any truth to that? I do them occasionally and don’t feel any pain from them, but to be completely honest I don’t think I’m moving enough weight on it for it to cause any problems.
[/quote]

If someone has pre-existing shoulder issues, then I wouldn’t suggest they do upright rows. If your shoulders are healthy and you use good form then you should be alright. Also, using a wide grip and only pulling your elbows up to level with your shoulders puts much less stress on the shoulder joint than the traditional close grip, pulling to the chin version.

I love PJR’s, but with your lack of potential weight for DB’s, you’re going to max out on them in no time flat. The “rolling BB extensions” that I suggested are a very similar motion, only using a BB instead of a DB. Skull crushers are another good exercise that you can add to your list of possible exercises(guess that one just slipped my mind).

-biceps- standing BB/ez bar curls, seated BB/ez bar curls, BB/ez bar drag curls, high cable curls (depending on how your lat pull-down machine is set up)

-calves- one legged calf raise, standing BB calf raise, seated BB calf raise (place loaded bar across your thighs and do seated calf raises), donkey calf raise (if by chance the girls soccer/futbol happens to workout when you do, have one, or a few, of them sit on your back), Farmer’s walk (place loaded BB on your back and just walk around the gym), incline walking on a treadmill
Wow, some great ideas for calves here. Up to now I’ve just done something similar to what Dante described where you essentially do a calf raise for every step on an incline, but I’m not really heavy enough for this to have any great effect and the soleus (or gastrocnemicus, whichever one is used when knees are bent) is being pretty much completely neglected.

-hamstrings- Romanian deadlift, Sumo deadlift, natural glute/ham raise, BB step-ups, leg curls (many of the quad exercises as well as deadlifts from the floor will also tax the hamstrings)

Again, your situation is far from ideal, but as you can see, there are still a fair number of options available to you.
Thanks for all the suggestions! I’ll definitely try out all of these variations as soon as I can.

LankyMofo wrote:
What kind of chest press machine only lets you add 20 kg of weight (which is like 45 pounds)? I think I started stronger than that.
Haha, guess there was a slight miscommunication there. What I meant is that the machine goes up to 100 kg (which I can do pretty easily) and I could probably add max. 20 kg in freeweights.
[/quote]

104

personally im not a fan of big rep warmups

i do 10-15 my first the higher the reps, the lighter the weight generally is

then i cut down to maybe 2-4 reps for my warmup sets. i dont want to be any more fatigued than i have to be for my working set.

so like today for deadlifts this is what i did

225x5

315x3

405x2

455x5

105

[quote]Scorzerci wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:

-shoulders- standing BB shoulder press, seated BB shoulder press, behind the head BB shoulder press, BB push press, wide grip upright row, handstand push-ups (feet against wall)
Regarding the upright rows, I’ve heard that these can easily mess up your shoulders. Any truth to that? I do them occasionally and don’t feel any pain from them, but to be completely honest I don’t think I’m moving enough weight on it for it to cause any problems.

[/quote]

You heard right. There is a chance of impingement in the shoulder from these. It might be safer on the shoulder to use DBs than a barbell.

Personally, I think there are alternatives that pose much less risk with equal benefit.

106

[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
personally im not a fan of big rep warmups

i do 10-15 my first the higher the reps, the lighter the weight generally is

then i cut down to maybe 2-4 reps for my warmup sets. i dont want to be any more fatigued than i have to be for my working set.

so like today for deadlifts this is what i did

225x5

315x3

405x2

455x5[/quote]

IMO, I think it also kind of depends on what point in the workout you’re at. If I’m fresh on a bench for the day I’ll typically go like 10 reps on the first set, 6-8 on the second to continue getting warmed up and blood pumping, and then maybe 4-5 on the third set and then working weight.

If I’m on my second tricep exercise, though, I’ll do like 8 reps on the first set, 4 on the second, and then the working weight.

I do think that’d be a good idea to start implementing for squats and heavy rack pulls / deads though. Decrease warm-up reps even more.

107

[quote]SSC wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
personally im not a fan of big rep warmups

i do 10-15 my first the higher the reps, the lighter the weight generally is

then i cut down to maybe 2-4 reps for my warmup sets. i dont want to be any more fatigued than i have to be for my working set.

so like today for deadlifts this is what i did

225x5

315x3

405x2

455x5

IMO, I think it also kind of depends on what point in the workout you’re at. If I’m fresh on a bench for the day I’ll typically go like 10 reps on the first set, 6-8 on the second to continue getting warmed up and blood pumping, and then maybe 4-5 on the third set and then working weight.

If I’m on my second tricep exercise, though, I’ll do like 8 reps on the first set, 4 on the second, and then the working weight.

I do think that’d be a good idea to start implementing for squats and heavy rack pulls / deads though. Decrease warm-up reps even more.[/quote]

that was my first lift of the day…well i did like a set of 6 with 225 for Rackpulls before then i said, fugg it i wana do deads.

typically on any kind of curl, i dont do warmups, period.

today after the deadlifts i did shoulder DB shoulder press 50’s x10, 70’s x3 90’s x5

then cable rows, with a very light warmup i did a set of 5 then 3 then my working set

after that i did Iso Hi-Row with NO WARMUP because i just did a working set of back and it was rowing, the same muscles were going to be used again (granted more emphasis on upper lats) so why bother doing another warmup??

HOWEVER, if you feel the need to do a warmup go for it BUT make sure you arent fatiguing yourself too much, i usually do a warmup for most of my sets today though i was hitting everything pretty hard so i didnt feel the need to do as many warmups because after my first couple sets i was already pumped up.

108

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
I love PJR’s, but with your lack of potential weight for DB’s, you’re going to max out on them in no time flat. The “rolling BB extensions” that I suggested are a very similar motion, only using a BB instead of a DB. Skull crushers are another good exercise that you can add to your list of possible exercises(guess that one just slipped my mind).
[/quote]
Oh yeah, I’m already using a BB instead of a DB. I was unaware that there was a different name for a PJR pullover when a BB was used instead of a DB. I don’t think that 10 kg PJR pullovers would be doing much for me, haha.

109

[quote]Professor X wrote:
pumped340 wrote:
Professor X wrote:

It doesn’t even make sense to use the same weight on all sets. There have been many days I go into the gym and have a little trouble with a certain weight only to come back to it after two other exercises to find that it is much easier to rep with.

The more sets you do, the greater the chance that muscle fibers not initially fired can be affected by the movement. This also means if you are easily able to get 10 reps with THE SAME DAMN WEIGHT for 4 sets, then there is no doubt in my mind that the weight you are using isn’t challenging enough for you to see much growth.

It seems like the bolded part is actually an argument for straight sets. Maybe I’m looking at it wrong?

If a weight is getting easier to put up because more fibers are being activated, how the hell does it make sense to stay with the same weight as it gets easier for following sets? That is how you think muscles are stressed into growing?

Along with that, if you can honestly put up the same weight for 10 full reps over three sets, why do you think that is enough to force growth? It can’t possibly be that much of a challenge if you got three sets out of it for the same number of reps.

Maybe your idea of intensity when training is drastically different than mine. I would never do that because common sense tells me if I can get that many reps out of it for that many sets then the weight isn’t heavy enough and I need to go up.[/quote]

I guess some people get stronger as the sets go on. If I lift a certain weight 10 times(to failure), I find I can’t repeat the same effort. I would most likely get 7 or 8 reps on my next set depending on my rest period. And the reps would go down with every succeeding set.

110

Training is pretty easy, the human mind makes it complicated.

If a stimilus provides enough specific overload then the body will progress specifically to that overload. Progression is advancing the specific overload in terms of volume, intensity, mode, or duration.

If ramp sets or pyramid sets or any kind of set is working for you then great, fantastic, give yourself a cookie. At some point the stimilus will have to change to reach overload and to progress the muscle. This is how you get lifters doing 100 rep sets while you also have lifters doing single sets to extreme exhaustion.

As a trainee becomes more advanced they will require more intensity over volume. Someone who’s been lifting for a year may require an upper/lower split, a Poliquinesque 5 day split, 4 sets of 10, 10 sets of 10, whatever to see the most gains. They will get stronger/bigger through repeated action.

Some pro who’s been lifting for a decade and has a near maximum amount of strength may need much more intensity, may need to work out each individual muscle (one day just for the brachioradialis!) or what have you.

There is no right or wrong program, there is only what you’ve been doing and what you are going to do. You should however have a warm-up set or two, especially if working with heavy weights (relative). Warm-up sets are good for joint/muscular health as well as potentiating the muscle. I don’t know about you but if I just “jump into a workout” I feel very weak on the first set then stronger on the 2nd and 3rd.

If you have just lifted 5 sets of 5 or 10 sets of 10 and were able to meet each rep with little problem did you really overload the muscle? Maybe the tempo wasn’t great so you work on that next time. So you’re now lifting with great tempo as you complete each and every rep. Well, then go up in weight until the last set or two you can’t make the rep.

So you end up lifting sets of 5, 5, 5, 4 even with adequate rest (90-120s for the heavy stuff, 60-90 for the lighter stuff) then you know you’ve overloaded the muscle. In a couple workouts you end up hitting all 5 sets of 5…well then move up in weight. Progression, progression, progression.

111

[quote]BantamRunner wrote:
As a trainee becomes more advanced they will require more intensity over volume. Someone who’s been lifting for a year may require an upper/lower split, a Poliquinesque 5 day split, 4 sets of 10, 10 sets of 10, whatever to see the most gains. They will get stronger/bigger through repeated action. Some pro who’s been lifting for a decade and has a near maximum amount of strength may need much more intensity.
[/quote]

This is what I was trying to get at.

I’m just not sure of going from an all out set to 3-4, because I don’t want to waste any time in getting stronger/bigger.

112

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
Scorzerci wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:

-shoulders- standing BB shoulder press, seated BB shoulder press, behind the head BB shoulder press, BB push press, wide grip upright row, handstand push-ups (feet against wall)
Regarding the upright rows, I’ve heard that these can easily mess up your shoulders. Any truth to that? I do them occasionally and don’t feel any pain from them, but to be completely honest I don’t think I’m moving enough weight on it for it to cause any problems.

You heard right. There is a chance of impingement in the shoulder from these. It might be safer on the shoulder to use DBs than a barbell.

Personally, I think there are alternatives that pose much less risk with equal benefit.[/quote]

Again, it somewhat depends on the form used though. The traditional version (close grip, pulling the elbows very high and the bar to about chin level) does place a good amount of stress on the shoulder joint, and yes impingement is a definite possibility.

Using a wide grip and only pulling the elbows up to shoulder level on the other hand, will place about the same amount of stress on the shoulder joint as “L lateral raises”.

Here is Flex wheeler performing the “wide grip upright rows” that I am talking about (skip to about 4:40):

113

[quote]BantamRunner wrote:
Training is pretty easy, the human mind makes it complicated.

If a stimilus provides enough specific overload then the body will progress specifically to that overload. Progression is advancing the specific overload in terms of volume, intensity, mode, or duration.

If ramp sets or pyramid sets or any kind of set is working for you then great, fantastic, give yourself a cookie. At some point the stimilus will have to change to reach overload and to progress the muscle. This is how you get lifters doing 100 rep sets while you also have lifters doing single sets to extreme exhaustion.
[/quote]

See, but the stimulus is constantly changing, you are adding weight to the bar or performing more reps with the same weight. Every now and then maybe you’ll switch out an exercise for another one for that muscle group. Beyond that there really isn’t need to change up the stimulus.

See, that’s what we’ve been saying about straight sets vs “pyramid/ramp” sets though. With straight sets, as you yourself just said, it’s going to take you at least a couple workouts before you add weight to the bar. Also, if your goal is to have the last set be challenging (and you’re using the same weight for multiple sets before hand) there is no way (unless you are a volume machine) that the weight you are using is anywhere near what you are capable of lifting for that many reps.

If you aren’t willing/interested in training to failure, and what you’ve been doing has been working, great. But you still cannot deny that the vast majority of the biggest BB’ers don’t train like you. And, if you are interested in looking like them, then following the road that they traveled to get to that point is the most tried and true method of reaching that point.

114

[quote]Goodfellow wrote:
BantamRunner wrote:
As a trainee becomes more advanced they will require more intensity over volume. Someone who’s been lifting for a year may require an upper/lower split, a Poliquinesque 5 day split, 4 sets of 10, 10 sets of 10, whatever to see the most gains. They will get stronger/bigger through repeated action. Some pro who’s been lifting for a decade and has a near maximum amount of strength may need much more intensity.

This is what I was trying to get at.

I’m just not sure of going from an all out set to 3-4, because I don’t want to waste any time in getting stronger/bigger.

[/quote]

3-4 would be a very low rep range to use if trying to build muscle. 4-8 would be as low as I would go, and even then I’d probably go higher (especially for certain muscle groups like quads and biceps).

As far as being worried about wasting time getting stronger/bigger, you really think that trying to do 10 sets with the same weight for 10 reps is going to result in faster strength gains than doing 1 all out set of 10? Really? And you really think that you’re going to be using anywhere near your true 10RM weight if you are trying to repeat that feat 9 more times in a relatively short period of time?

So, you’re going to be able to add weight to the bar much less infrequently, and you’re going to be starting from a much lower point from a strength perspective, and you really think that this is going to result in faster strength gains? Really Goodfellow? Really?

115

“But you still cannot deny that the vast majority of the biggest BB’ers don’t train like you. And, if you are interested in looking like them, then following the road that they traveled to get to that point is the most tried and true method of reaching that point.”

Ah yes…but did they get to that point from day 1? Nope.

A relative beginner or someone who’s never done much volume will benefit much more greatly from 10 sets of 10 in which you’re really working with a 12-15RM (Poliquin’s German Volume Training…also an old Gironda workout) than one set of 10 at a true 10RM.

It’s all a matter of progression. You think Metzer always did his HIT from the day he was 16 years old? Nope. It’s all a matter of progression.

Also, let’s not forget about nonfunctional hypertrophy as well. You can increase the size of your muscle without hitting the highest end fibers. You have slow twitch fibers, connective tissue, capillary beds, mitochondria, etc…a muscle isn’t just muscle. Why do you think some distance runners have huge calves? Increased size of slow switch fibers.

There’s a time for everything.

Alan

116

[quote]BantamRunner wrote:
“But you still cannot deny that the vast majority of the biggest BB’ers don’t train like you. And, if you are interested in looking like them, then following the road that they traveled to get to that point is the most tried and true method of reaching that point.”

Ah yes…but did they get to that point from day 1? Nope.

A relative beginner or someone who’s never done much volume will benefit much more greatly from 10 sets of 10 in which you’re really working with a 12-15RM (Poliquin’s German Volume Training…also an old Gironda workout) than one set of 10 at a true 10RM.

It’s all a matter of progression. You think Metzer always did his HIT from the day he was 16 years old? Nope. It’s all a matter of progression.

Also, let’s not forget about nonfunctional hypertrophy as well. You can increase the size of your muscle without hitting the highest end fibers. You have slow twitch fibers, connective tissue, capillary beds, mitochondria, etc…a muscle isn’t just muscle. Why do you think some distance runners have huge calves? Increased size of slow switch fibers.

There’s a time for everything.

Alan[/quote]

Is this post for real? Mentzer didn’t even use HIT to look the way he did. He gained most of that size training like everyone else. He started pushing that harder when he quit.

Where are you getting this idea that beginners need 10 sets of 10? If you want to know how some bigger guys trained from day one, ASK THEM. I never did that even as a beginner but you are saying I should have?

…and “nonfunctional hypertrophy”? Use of this word alone labels you clueless. You are an article parrot. I want you to point out “nonfunctional hypertrophy” on someone. Find a picture.

117

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:
Scorzerci wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:

-shoulders- standing BB shoulder press, seated BB shoulder press, behind the head BB shoulder press, BB push press, wide grip upright row, handstand push-ups (feet against wall)
Regarding the upright rows, I’ve heard that these can easily mess up your shoulders. Any truth to that? I do them occasionally and don’t feel any pain from them, but to be completely honest I don’t think I’m moving enough weight on it for it to cause any problems.

You heard right. There is a chance of impingement in the shoulder from these. It might be safer on the shoulder to use DBs than a barbell.

Personally, I think there are alternatives that pose much less risk with equal benefit.

Again, it somewhat depends on the form used though. The traditional version (close grip, pulling the elbows very high and the bar to about chin level) does place a good amount of stress on the shoulder joint, and yes impingement is a definite possibility.

Using a wide grip and only pulling the elbows up to shoulder level on the other hand, will place about the same amount of stress on the shoulder joint as “L lateral raises”.

Here is Flex wheeler performing the “wide grip upright rows” that I am talking about (skip to about 4:40):
- YouTube [/quote]

is that Charles Glass with him?

118

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Goodfellow wrote:
BantamRunner wrote:
As a trainee becomes more advanced they will require more intensity over volume. Someone who’s been lifting for a year may require an upper/lower split, a Poliquinesque 5 day split, 4 sets of 10, 10 sets of 10, whatever to see the most gains. They will get stronger/bigger through repeated action. Some pro who’s been lifting for a decade and has a near maximum amount of strength may need much more intensity.

This is what I was trying to get at.

I’m just not sure of going from an all out set to 3-4, because I don’t want to waste any time in getting stronger/bigger.

3-4 would be a very low rep range to use if trying to build muscle. 4-8 would be as low as I would go, and even then I’d probably go higher (especially for certain muscle groups like quads and biceps).

As far as being worried about wasting time getting stronger/bigger, you really think that trying to do 10 sets with the same weight for 10 reps is going to result in faster strength gains than doing 1 all out set of 10? Really? And you really think that you’re going to be using anywhere near your true 10RM weight if you are trying to repeat that feat 9 more times in a relatively short period of time?

So, you’re going to be able to add weight to the bar much less infrequently, and you’re going to be starting from a much lower point from a strength perspective, and you really think that this is going to result in faster strength gains? Really Goodfellow? Really?[/quote]

Uhh thats not what I meant.

“I’m just not sure of going from an all out set to 3-4, because I don’t want to waste any time in getting stronger/bigger.”

That was meant to read like this:

I am doing ‘one all out set’ right now.

I’m not sure if going from one all out set, to 3-4 SETS would be worthwhile.

And I am hesistant to try because I didn’t want to waste time.

119

420×555 70.9 KB

[quote]BantamRunner wrote:
“But you still cannot deny that the vast majority of the biggest BB’ers don’t train like you. And, if you are interested in looking like them, then following the road that they traveled to get to that point is the most tried and true method of reaching that point.”

Ah yes…but did they get to that point from day 1? Nope.

A relative beginner or someone who’s never done much volume will benefit much more greatly from 10 sets of 10 in which you’re really working with a 12-15RM (Poliquin’s German Volume Training…also an old Gironda workout) than one set of 10 at a true 10RM.
[/quote]

Why?

Who said anything about HIT? And it is all a matter of progression, progression in terms of weight lifted for moderate reps and food.

Ah yes, nonfunctional hypertrophy, the unicorn’s bastard cousin. :wink:

Seriously though, show me all of these people with huge muscles who focused on “nonfunctional hypertrophy”.

And as far as distance runners, I’ve personally never seen any with “huge” calves, and any that did would likely just have a genetic predisposition towards big calves. They are the exception to the rules though, not the norm. The above picture is pretty much the norm when it comes to distance runner’s calves, and I wouldn’t even use the word huge in the same sentence as that guy’s legs.

120

I don’t know why people keep mis-interpreting my posts.

Maybe I’m giving off this vibe of being a go happy swiss ball loving guy.

I’m going to have to post some progress photos soon!