Now, I know everyone says lift heavy, do this that and the other, but quite contrary to T-Nation’s beliefs I have seen some pretty big guys who do things completely differently to what T-Nation says to.
I have a friend who is 260 or so, and basically switches between doing 12-15 sets of 12-21reps for each body part in a 6 day split, to 12-15 sets of 6 reps.
21 rep sets? That that is apparently more of a conditioning and endurance rep range, but Mr. Volume junky does 21 rep excercises all the time and is pretty huge. T-Nation published an article saying ‘Can’t Prove it’, then continued to say that it just works doing certain thing.
Although T-Nation has ‘proved’ that 15-21+ rep range is less useful for building muscle than 8-12, I disagree.
What the authors on T-Nation publish is what will work for most people. There are always genetic freaks that can never lift a weight, and just do sets of pushups and have 18" guns.
If your one of those genetic freaks then you likely wont need to be reading articles on T-Nation for help. That is why T-Nation writes articles based on what will work for the average person.
Anyone that knows anything about physiology will tell you that using only 15+ reps for hypertrophy is FAR FAR less than optimal. Thats not to say that everyone should stay in the 8-12 range, all the time, but much of the time. Your friend that got big that way, would only be that much bigger and stronger if he were including all rep ranges.
I do 21s for arms and hammies. Its nuttin special. In fact for legs I do higher reps (12-20 reps). I feel I stimulate more compared to using heavier weight and just moving the weight.
Whatever works for your friend man. You need to stimulate the muscle for it to grow. This isnt powerlifitn its bodybuilding, so whatever works man.
But generally speaking, the average person 8-12 reps its best for hypertrophy. If you do more than that you arent using heavy enough weight to stimulate the muscle and tear it down properly. There are always exceptions to the rule, just like in English. There are no LAWS OF BODYBUILDING
[quote]forevernade wrote:
Now, I know everyone says lift heavy, do this that and the other, but quite contrary to T-Nation’s beliefs I have seen some pretty big guys who do things completely differently to what T-Nation says to.
I have a friend who is 260 or so, and basically switches between doing 12-15 sets of 12-21reps for each body part in a 6 day split, to 12-15 sets of 6 reps.[/quote]
Is that how Mr 260 got to be Mr 260 or is he being more careful now, possibly joint problems.
The way a big BBer trains today isn’t necessarily the way he got to be big in the first place.
Also, you mentioned he does “12-15 sets of 6 reps” in some training cycles too. Well then, there ya go!
[quote]gswork wrote:
forevernade wrote:
Now, I know everyone says lift heavy, do this that and the other, but quite contrary to T-Nation’s beliefs I have seen some pretty big guys who do things completely differently to what T-Nation says to.
I have a friend who is 260 or so, and basically switches between doing 12-15 sets of 12-21reps for each body part in a 6 day split, to 12-15 sets of 6 reps.
Is that how Mr 260 got to be Mr 260 or is he being more careful now, possibly joint problems.
The way a big BBer trains today isn’t necessarily the way he got to be big in the first place.
Also, you mentioned he does “12-15 sets of 6 reps” in some training cycles too. Well then, there ya go!
[/quote]
I remember speaking to my mate’s cousin who is now in his 40’s massive and ripped to shreads life time natural body builder, he said he used too lift real heavy like a powerlifter now does higher reps (said he did 10-12x4 sets) because of his joints…
I get the eat and sleep parts. but by lifting heavy, do you mean more along the lines of using a total body workout? cuz they allow for the most amount of muscle worked per workout with also the most amount of compound work.
Most bodybuilders got big by lifting heavy weights to failure in the 6-12 rep range, following a 2, 3, or 4 way split… splitting up the bodyparts more and more as they get more advanced.
2-4 exercises per muscle group, 3-5 sets per exercise, usually starting out with straight sets (eg:3x10) and moving onto pyramidding as they progress (eg: 5x(12,10,8,6,4-8*) *working weight).
As a sidenote they also ate hearty wholesome foods like steak, fried chicken, pasta, and potatoes to gain weight at a regular pace for years and not being overly concerned about definition or waist measurement.
As was mentioned above, bodybuilders train differently for personal preference and/or safety reasons once they are advanced enough.
My old training partner was quite a successful natural bodybuilder who used similar rep schemes and consistently put on lean muscle mass each year (he claimed 12kg per year, but taking into account his bulk and cut weights I would say it was more like 7-8kg per year).
He did 3 sets of everything, and used a lot of different exercises. I remember arms used to take us 90 minutes (all those 21s variations on the preacher bench!)
He also trained up to 11 times per week, repeating his morning workout in the same evening.
He was also poor and ate a lot of rice and barely enough protein (as much as he could afford or was given).
He was short and African, superb genetics for hypertrophy.
I got newbie gains training with him and some good GPP, but I started powerlifting after about a year. I’m not sure if those gains would have continued or not.
[quote]mr popular wrote:
Most bodybuilders got big by lifting heavy weights to failure in the 6-12 rep range, following a 2, 3, or 4 way split… splitting up the bodyparts more and more as they get more advanced.
2-4 exercises per muscle group, 3-5 sets per exercise, usually starting out with straight sets (eg:3x10) and moving onto pyramidding as they progress (eg: 5x(12,10,8,6,4-8*) *working weight).
As a sidenote they also ate hearty wholesome foods like steak, fried chicken, pasta, and potatoes to gain weight at a regular pace for years and not being overly concerned about definition or waist measurement.
As was mentioned above, bodybuilders train differently for personal preference and/or safety reasons once they are advanced enough.[/quote]
so they only used ONE working set (in regards to the pyramiding)?
and when you say trained to failure, do you mean concentric failure only, or absolute failure (concentric, isometric and eccentric).?
What difference does it make if you use high rep or low rep beside the fact that high rep would take longer? The point of lifting weights is to damage the muscle tissue and then let it repair with time.
high reps have their place in that they, for one thing, create capilaries which in turn will enable more blood/nutrients/O2 to be delivered to the muscle and that’s not a bad thing.
[quote]forbes wrote:
so they only used ONE working set (in regards to the pyramiding)?
and when you say trained to failure, do you mean concentric failure only, or absolute failure (concentric, isometric and eccentric).?[/quote]
For example, pyramiding 5 sets of a bench press might look like this.
135lbs x 12
185lbs x 10
225lbs x 8
275lbs x 6
315lbs x 7*
*concentric failure.
The first 4 sets are slowly warming up the muscle and readying it for the heavy weight, and they aren’t meant to go to failure. The fifth set is your “working weight”, the heaviest weight you can handle for a predetermined rep range (eg:4-8). You find a good top-limit amount of reps for yourself, usually this is anywhere from 6 to 12 reps depending on the exercise and the person… and you work with that working weight each week until you can get, for instance, 8 solid reps with it. Then the next workout you move on to a heavier working weight (heavy enough that maybe you can only get 3-5 reps with it, and you work with that each week until you’re knocking it out for 8).
Some guys will use beyond-failure techniques like drop sets and triple-rest-pause but its entirely dependant on their own recovery abilities and preferences. Most of the natural guys I know of will just do the normal pyramid sets for 2-3 exercises for a big muscle group and then finish with a pumping exercise (eg: pec deck) not really worrying about sets or reps just doing as many sets as it takes to finish of the muscle and pump as much blood into it as possible.
But like I said… it’s usually a progression and it’s entirely individual anyway. Some guys use straight sets forever and it works for them, however I will say that most of the really big, REALLY strong bodybuilders you see will go for one top set to failure and give it their utmost intensity.
I suppose then if one is to go to absolute failure for one set, then a spotter is necessary to help get those weights up. either that or use machine based exercises.
i have neither, so i cant, but i would love to. that kind of resembles DC training, which has has much success with many trainees. i’ve wantted to do it, but, again, cant cuz of no machines and no spotters.
If you’re worried about something like a flat barbell bench press, then do what I did. Just use dumbells instead. problem solved.
I don’t see how you would need a spotter for any back, leg, shoulder, or arm exercises.
And you could still do something like a barbell incline bench for instance, and not REALLY have to worry about needing a spotter. You simply end the set if you know you can’t complete another rep, and if you do fuck up and there isn’t someone around, you can roll the bar or bail the weights no big deal – it won’t happen very often anyway.
::edit::
This post wasn’t a recommendation to do DC training, I was simply commenting on how you shouldn’t need a spotter in order to go to failure in your training.
Anyone that knows anything about physiology will tell you that using only 15+ reps for hypertrophy is FAR FAR less than optimal. Thats not to say that everyone should stay in the 8-12 range, all the time, but much of the time. Your friend that got big that way, would only be that much bigger and stronger if he were including all rep ranges.[/quote]
Of course, anyone who knows anything right?
Maybe you would mind explaining to me why all of these grueling 20-30 rep sets of squats/hacks/leg press seem to be making my legs grow faster than ever?
T-Nation doesnt have a low rep policy or anythung its just that for putting on muscle 21 reps generally wont work week in week out, although it can have its place in your toolbox.
That being said this big guy who trains like this… does he juice? if he does then its no wonder he grows like 12 year old errection.