Pyramid or Not?

I’ve kept up with this whole thread and here’s my take.

I used straight sets before with success BUT am now pyramiding (since around winter break). I’ve done the straight set method for an estimated two years maybe (out of my 4 year bodybuilding career).

By straight sets I DO NOT mean 4x10 but rather this assuming a goal rep range of 8-10 reps:

1st set: 10 reps
2nd set: 9-10 reps
3rd set: 8-9 reps
4th set: 6-8 reps

Why I think this worked for me:

  • schedule of a student (have as much rest and food as I want with perfect timing)
  • young (now 22 with no history of injuries/medical problems)
  • took pretty much every set to failure (usually the last two sets of exercise done to failure)
  • INTENSITY WAS NOT IGNORED

I guess my joints/tendons took a hit and I don’t think it would have worked so well if I didn’t have the benefits listed above. But I did have to make sure to get all the recovery 100% so I’d be able to hit it as intensely for 5 days a week. I’m also a volume guy so I definitely hit alot of stuff as well. I also will say that I don’t have an extremely difficult time putting weight on. I feel that it only will work for so long and there will be a ceiling. Once I felt that my progress has stalled not because of effort/intensity/etc, but rather because of my method, I SWITCHED! I took the leap of faith considering the biggest bodybuilders do pyramiding.

At a heavier bodyweight and working with heavier plates, I’ve switched over to pyramiding and the weights have obviously increased and I feel this is where I will be for now on.

I do not take back any of my experiences on MY VERSION of straight sets since that helped me get to where I am now. But, pyramiding is where I will stay.

For what it’s worth, I used straight sets between body weights of 200-240 (I’m somewhere in the 240’s now). I honestly forget what got me to 155-200 lbs but it was definitely a 5-day split.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
pumped340 wrote:
You make a good point Sentoguy. Still seems a bit odd for him to purposely do that but you made it clearer with your post.

Professor X wrote:

If you can get three full sets out of it at 10 reps each, I would say, Hell fuck no.

my point is just that if you could only do 10 reps on the last set, that 10th rep would sure be challenging. I get what your saying, all I’m saying is that last set would obviously be very challenging since you couldn’t do another rep

It can’t be “very challenging”. My idea of “very challenging” involves me NOT being able to get 10 full reps out of it.

You are doing a weight you can EASILY get 10 reps with for four whole sets. How do I know it’s easy? because you did the damn thing for 10 reps four times in a row.

The big guys do not make their number of reps and sets the primary concern. That is why no one gives a shit whether you use “5x5” or any other number combination you might come up with. This shit isn’t magic. If you aren’t going heavy, you are not training with high intensity no matter how “challenging” you might think that last rep is.[/quote]

see the words are just different, I totally agree one all out set of 10 is more “intense” in a sense, what I’m saying is 3 or 4x10 the last set is still very challenging. If you pick a weight where you could get exactly 4x10 and on that 4th set you no way in hell could get an 11th rep than thats not “easily” getting it, if it was easy why couldn’t you get an 11th rep?

I’m not its a better way at all (I like this ramping method being brought up more), I just don’t see how you could say its not challenging. “Intense” used as how heavy it is for 1 set then yes.

I only got up to the 3rd part of the video’s with Dennis Wolf but he seems to use the same dumbbells for all of his DB bench sets (the 60’s). Not like it makes that big of a difference, just saying.

[quote]David1991 wrote:
I only got up to the 3rd part of the video’s with Dennis Wolf but he seems to use the same dumbbells for all of his DB bench sets (the 60’s). Not like it makes that big of a difference, just saying. [/quote]

Definitely the exception when it comes to the pro’s though.
What’s even less normal is how light he goes!? 60’s? Even for 3 straight sets, I mean, come on…

Maybe he just does those db presses and flyes as pump exercises? He sure uses very little weight on them and his reps are like 12-13 or so.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
David1991 wrote:
I only got up to the 3rd part of the video’s with Dennis Wolf but he seems to use the same dumbbells for all of his DB bench sets (the 60’s). Not like it makes that big of a difference, just saying.

Definitely the exception when it comes to the pro’s though.
What’s even less normal is how light he goes!? 60’s? Even for 3 straight sets, I mean, come on…

Maybe he just does those db presses and flyes as pump exercises? He sure uses very little weight on them and his reps are like 12-13 or so.

[/quote]

You don’t know how close he is to a contest either. Ronnie is the exception. Most bodybuilders are not trying to break any personal records in the weight used when dieting down. You can risk injury that way making the goal more maintenance than pushing the limits.

He seems to be going up in weight for those lat pull downs…

If I am on my last exercise and I have already killed that particular muscle group, I may keep the same weight as well. Without asking the man what he is working on at that point in time, all you can do is observe.

Beyond all of that, if 90% of the people who got big trained a certain way, why look for the one or two exceptions to prove a rule? He obviously does go up in weight on some movements. I am sure his stage of training dictates how he trains, not some written in stone concept like many here.

I thought of something which seems to make sense to me, hopefully it will to others

when I do 4x10 straight sets, the first 3 are not all out, otherwise I would never finish off the next set of 10.

So effectively, the first 2 sets at least are not all out, only the last one is where I really push, so its not all that disimilar to having 1 working set.

So all I am effectively doing is exhausting the muscle more by doing the same weight for 4 sets, whereas if I did less weight for the first 3, I could do more weight for the last one, therefore theoretically stimulating the muscle more.

Of course this is just me making a theory to try and fit an observed trend so there are probably equaly logical counter arguments, but Im convinced enough to give ramping a try.

[quote]Anonymas wrote:
I thought of something which seems to make sense to me, hopefully it will to others

when I do 4x10 straight sets, the first 3 are not all out, otherwise I would never finish off the next set of 10.

So effectively, the first 2 sets at least are not all out, only the last one is where I really push, so its not all that disimilar to having 1 working set.

So all I am effectively doing is exhausting the muscle more by doing the same weight for 4 sets, whereas if I did less weight for the first 3, I could do more weight for the last one, therefore theoretically stimulating the muscle more.

Of course this is just me making a theory to try and fit an observed trend so there are probably equaly logical counter arguments, but Im convinced enough to give ramping a try.[/quote]

what you explained is just the typical way to do straight sets though, although some people end up getting less reps on later sets especially as they start increasing the weight from where they started with that exercise

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
David1991 wrote:
I only got up to the 3rd part of the video’s with Dennis Wolf but he seems to use the same dumbbells for all of his DB bench sets (the 60’s). Not like it makes that big of a difference, just saying.

Definitely the exception when it comes to the pro’s though.
What’s even less normal is how light he goes!? 60’s? Even for 3 straight sets, I mean, come on…

Maybe he just does those db presses and flyes as pump exercises? He sure uses very little weight on them and his reps are like 12-13 or so.

[/quote]

I was thinking the same thing (just didn’t feel like making another comment about the videos lol), I can do that with 60’s and he makes it look so hard. I’ve noticed that with a lot of bodybuilding video’s, even on the light sets they make these faces and grunts as if it’s so hard for them (which is why I figured it wasn’t just for a pump)…not sure why.

I can’t believe this thread is so long…

[quote]That One Guy wrote:
I can’t believe this thread is so long…[/quote]

True…but you gotta love the info CC and X are putting out in this thread,

Here’s another benefit to ramping, i’ll use myself as an example.

For the past 3 weeks, I’d been stuck on 140kg squat at 5 reps.

If I went in today thinking ‘yeah ill do some straight sets today, for about 8 reps’, I would of probably used around 100-120kg.

However, I ramped up in weight, 5-6 reps each pop, then i hit 130kg and it felt like air.

So I put on 170kg and just smoked 5 reps. I would of never made such a big jump in progress if I was doing straight sets.

I then took my past 5RM and banged out 15 reps with it, just to make sure it was my bitch.

Thats also why I don’t do wendlers 5/3/1 anymore, planning out your progress is stupid, considering there are times where you make huge jumps.

I think ramping just prepares your body for those times where you are going to be hitting PR’s.

P.S - I’m fucking happy as shit today, i’ve been stuck at a 3 plate squat for 3 weeks, and went up to almost 4 plates the next session.

170kg = 167.5kg rounded up <=)

[quote]Goodfellow wrote:
Here’s another benefit to ramping, i’ll use myself as an example.

For the past 3 weeks, I’d been stuck on 140kg squat at 5 reps.

If I went in today thinking ‘yeah ill do some straight sets today, for about 8 reps’, I would of probably used around 100-120kg.

However, I ramped up in weight, 5-6 reps each pop, then i hit 130kg and it felt like air.

So I put on 170kg and just smoked 5 reps. I would of never made such a big jump in progress if I was doing straight sets.

I then took my past 5RM and banged out 15 reps with it, just to make sure it was my bitch.

Thats also why I don’t do wendlers 5/3/1 anymore, planning out your progress is stupid, considering there are times where you make huge jumps. [/quote] Hmm, you don’t actually plan your progress out stiffly there… As long as you reach your rep goals for that particular day, you are free to rep out to failure or close to it on the last set of your 5/3/1 exericse.
The extra reps you get are great for bb purposes, but not necessary if you don’t feel good that day.

I usually get around…

Wave 1 (35)
7-9 reps on my last set
wave 2 (3
3)
5-6 reps on last set
wave 3 (5/3/1)
4-6 reps on last set

Coupled with the larger weight jump version of the loading parameters, this feels a lot like standard bb ramping (I basically do 2 ramped warm-ups or so before my also ramped 5/3/1 sets.

Anyway, I like using 5/3/1 one some of the more stubborn main lifts and do the rest as I normally would…
It’s really not so different from regular bb training/ramping, but you’re cycling intensity and all that…

[quote]

I think ramping just prepares your body for those times where you are going to be hitting PR’s.
[/quote] You’re supposed to pretty much always have a PR in the gym when training standard bb :wink:
Unless you go with very big weight increases whenever you hit your target reps on your work set… Then it’ll obviously take a while to work your way up from your 1 or 2RM or so to the point where you can do it for 8-10 or even 12 reps and you won’t always manage to get extra reps.

Keep training that way and keep the PR’s coming rather than getting stuck all the time man :wink:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
mertdawg wrote:

BB hacksquats are useless

i personally hate pullups.

if youre the same guy im thinking of, i dont think someone who just got told they lack intensity should be trying to do RP techniques. if youve never trained to failure before you arent going to be able to RP

No, not me. I have trained more like a (weak) powerlifter for the last 7-8 years. The main difference for me will be in doing sets in the 7-15 rep range while most of my stuff has been 2-6. Also switching to stricter movements.

I have power squatted 445 (not great) and benched 357.5, and front squatted 305. Most of my training has been something like 5 x 3, 4 x 6.

But the strict BB type exercises really cut my weight.

I bench 330 x 2 about a month ago and in one workout in Sept. did 342.5 for 10 singles in 15 minutes, but when I did strict BB type bench presses I could only do 155 x 12! so I at least have a lot of improvement I can make.

I have squatted 445, but again, strict, no-lockout close stance squats did just 215 x 8!

BB hack squats do seem to work for me much like a leg exension. I’ve seen Ronnie Coleman do them in videos and the way he does them seems to work. My other option would be lunges, or split squats or front squats.

You know, If you want to try out ramping, then I’d really just do a regular bb split. Those two things kind of go together.

If you don’t want to split stuff up so much, consider this:
(also, I would stay away from rest-pause for now. Do regular sets for a month, then add in RP… Imo rest-pause works better with an exercise rotation, and is dangerous to do on lifts which involve the low-back etc.
If you have questions about RP and how to incorporate it, consider visiting the DC threads on here)

3-way, yates-inspired

Day 1 - Chest, Biceps, Triceps (yes, in that order to give tris a rest after chest)
Day 2 - Legs
Day 3 - Off
Day 4 - Delts, Back (in that order)
Day 5 - off
Day 6 - either restart the cycle or another off-day… You can do this routine over 3 days a week or repeat it after every 5th day… Your call.

(warmups in this case I’d do something like 8, 5-6, 3-4, work-set or so.

(for each “-”, pick one exercise that fits the category)

Chest
-Low incline exercise (bb, db, machine), ramp up over 4 sets with relatively even weight jumps. I’d use 6-10 or so as your rep-range. (move up in weight in small increments once you can do 8, 9 or 10 reps… Make sure you “own” the weight before moving up)
-flat or decline exercise (bb, db, machine) ramp over 3-4 sets. 6-10 on final set.

Bis
-alt. db curls, EZ curls, low cable-curls… Whatever. 3-4 sets (could go 8 reps, 4-6 reps, work set), ramped, 6-10.
-incline offset grip curls, preachers, machine curls… 2-3 sets ramped
6-10 or 8-12 on the last set.

Tris
-CGP (elbows tucked, grip as wide as necessary so that you can stay fully tucked…), In-Human Press, S-wide-RGB (DC grip), HS dips…
3-4 sets ramped, 6-10 on the last.
-PJR’s, Larry Scott Extensions, Rolling DB extensions on the floor, Lying EZ extensions (bar comes down behind head), … 3 sets or 4 sets ramped.


Legs

-Squats, Front squats, Leg Press, Hack Machine squats, Power squats, whatever. 4-5 sets ramped, 4-6 reps on top set (could do two sets here), then rest, reduce the weight some and do a 20 rep widowmaker… (which basically means that after 8-10 reps or so you hold the weight and catch your breath, then grind out a few more reps, repeat until you get 16-20 or so… If you do front-squats as your main exercise, do the widowmaker on the leg-press or hack machine. No warm-ups needed, though you could do one)

-Ham exercise (can be done before quads in case that the widowmaker just leaves you dead on the floor) like rev hypers, lying leg curls, sumo leg presses, SLDL’s… 3-4 sets, 6-10 on the last

-Calves (do the DC protocol for these if you think you can stomach it :wink:

-pulldown abs or whatever


delts

-Overhead press of any kind (DB, BB, smith high inclines ala Rühl would probably be a good idea, we’ve talked about them a lot in the forums recently) 4 sets, ramped up, 6-10

-Laterals, better machine laterals if you have a good lateral machine… 2-3 sets ramped… 8-15 or 6-10

-Backwidth (or thickness first, depending on which is weaker in your case): Pulldowns (don’t cheat too much), Rack Chins (if you know how to do them right), pullups (weighted), that kind of thing. 4 sets ramped, 6-12 or so. (I would suggest rack chins or pulldowns or HS machines over pullups here, seriously)… And keep your biceps out of the movement.

-Backthickness
Yates Rows, Rack Pulls (only if you didn’t do free-weight back squats and/or sldl’s on leg day. This split shouldn’t have low-back involvement on two days, if you want to do both deads or rack deads and back squats/sldls, rotate them each week/cycle!), Kroc Rows (if you can get the technique down), HS row machines… You get the idea.
Rack pulls are done with a back-shrug at the top, i.e. you pull your delts back, chest out and tense your upper back…

4-5 sets (less for rows, more for heavy pulls), 6-10 or 8-12 at the end if it’s a row (kroc rows are 12-25, and done sort of like a widowmaker squat with the pauses etc)… And one heavy 6-8 followed by one lighter 8-12 (or the other way around) if it’s a rack dead/deadlift.

-rear delts: pinch-grip rows (Grab the plates with their lips pointing out, instead of the bar. 10-15 or so as a rep range then, go light at first! that’s obviously not a regular bo row, weight-wise…), face pulls, rev. pec deck… 2-3 sets, ramped, 8-12

Ok, still with me?

2 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight, and no arguing.
You’ll stay weak forever if you don’t eat.

So.
I’d really suggest that you try such a format out (or a regular 4-way or even 5-way).

[/quote]

Thanks for your ideas.

BTW do you think its better to do a compound movement like CG Bench before extensions, or after, or mix it up?

Also, I came up with pinch grip rear delt raises for myself about 14 years ago. I posted them on this site about 5 years ago. (I’m not saying I invented them) but I have found 2 things: 1) they are one exercise that I have always RPed on. I could do a 45 for 10 reps, but I could do 75 pounds for 3-4, and only needed about 20 seconds rest to do 2-3 more. 2) I have a version now where you put the weight on a long bar like for T-bar rows. That way you can pull backwards as well.

What is the difference between “ramping” and just warm up sets?? Are they essentially the same thing?
Also, why would u need to ramp up after the first exercise for a given bodypart, after that the muscle should already be warmed up. Forgive me if im missing something here

I would be interested in trying out a program like the one C_C outlined on the last page, but I train in a tiny gym with very little equipment, so for some bodyparts (eg. chest) I only have one exercise that I can do. In C_C’s outline he recommends 2 different exercises per bodypart, so what would the solution be to this problem? 2 working sets on the 1 exercise instead of 1 working set on 2 exercises?

if ur gym has dumbels, and a bench, can u not do presses and flies?

[quote]Jesse wrote:
What is the difference between “ramping” and just warm up sets?? Are they essentially the same thing?
Also, why would u need to ramp up after the first exercise for a given bodypart, after that the muscle should already be warmed up. Forgive me if im missing something here[/quote]

You can warm up your legs on 5 minutes of a stationary bike too.

Does that mean you are going to do that then go squat 405lbs straight after?

You need to prepare your body and nervous system for that particular movement before you go all out on it.

Unless, like Prof X said, you’ve done it earlier in the workout (such as lat pulldowns) and you’re doing it again just to give extra work to that muscle.

Dumbells only go up to 10 kg.
I guess if someone wants to try to be creative here’s what my gym has:
Flat bench (can’t be turned into an incline by putting plates on one end, already tried)
1 olympic (long) Barbell, 1 curl (short) bar, 1 EZ curl bar
Chest press machine (already maxed out can only add max 10-20 kg weight which would only take me a few weeks to reach)
Pulldown machine
Leg extension machine
Leg Curl machine
Squat rack (only reaches up to my sternum so I have to start squats in bottom position)
Some cardio machines including a stepping machine type thing that I can set up to do dips on.
Would using dips as a second chest exercise work?
Btw, if anyone is wondering why I still go to this gym, it’s because it’s my school gym and it’s free. Membership fee to a gym + cost of a train ride (can’t drive and biking up a hill home after leg day just isn’t happening) is too much for me.

[quote]Scorzerci wrote:
Dumbells only go up to 10 kg.
I guess if someone wants to try to be creative here’s what my gym has:
Flat bench (can’t be turned into an incline by putting plates on one end, already tried)
1 olympic (long) Barbell, 1 curl (short) bar, 1 EZ curl bar
Chest press machine (already maxed out can only add max 10-20 kg weight which would only take me a few weeks to reach)
Pulldown machine
Leg extension machine
Leg Curl machine
Squat rack (only reaches up to my sternum so I have to start squats in bottom position)
Some cardio machines including a stepping machine type thing that I can set up to do dips on.
Would using dips as a second chest exercise work?
Btw, if anyone is wondering why I still go to this gym, it’s because it’s my school gym and it’s free. Membership fee to a gym + cost of a train ride (can’t drive and biking up a hill home after leg day just isn’t happening) is too much for me.[/quote]

Wow, I know you said you don’t want to pay to go to a real gym, but in all seriousness, you are probably going to outgrow this gym real fast if you continue to train and eat with a purpose.

While not ideal, some ideas might be:
-chest- flat BB bench, BB floor press, partner resisted push-ups (with feet up on bench if you want to hit the upper pecs more), push-up flies, Giordona dips

-back- Deadlift, bent over row, shrug, power clean, pronated lat pull-down, supinated lat pull-down

-quads- BB back squats, BB front squats, BB split squats, BB box/bench squat, walking lunges, forward lunges, backward lunges, BB hack squat, leg extensions

-shoulders- standing BB shoulder press, seated BB shoulder press, behind the head BB shoulder press, BB push press, wide grip upright row, handstand push-ups (feet against wall)

-triceps- close grip BB bench, close grip floor press, “rolling BB extensions”, overhead triceps extensions, dips (trying to keep body as upright as possible), pushdowns (depending on how your pull-down machine is set up), partner resisted “diamond push-ups”

-biceps- standing BB/ez bar curls, seated BB/ez bar curls, BB/ez bar drag curls, high cable curls (depending on how your lat pull-down machine is set up)

-calves- one legged calf raise, standing BB calf raise, seated BB calf raise (place loaded bar across your thighs and do seated calf raises), donkey calf raise (if by chance the girls soccer/futbol happens to workout when you do, have one, or a few, of them sit on your back), Farmer’s walk (place loaded BB on your back and just walk around the gym), incline walking on a treadmill

-hamstrings- Romanian deadlift, Sumo deadlift, natural glute/ham raise, BB step-ups, leg curls (many of the quad exercises as well as deadlifts from the floor will also tax the hamstrings)

Again, your situation is far from ideal, but as you can see, there are still a fair number of options available to you.

[quote]Scorzerci wrote:
Dumbells only go up to 10 kg.
I guess if someone wants to try to be creative here’s what my gym has:
Flat bench (can’t be turned into an incline by putting plates on one end, already tried)
1 olympic (long) Barbell, 1 curl (short) bar, 1 EZ curl bar
Chest press machine (already maxed out can only add max 10-20 kg weight which would only take me a few weeks to reach)
Pulldown machine
Leg extension machine
Leg Curl machine
Squat rack (only reaches up to my sternum so I have to start squats in bottom position)
Some cardio machines including a stepping machine type thing that I can set up to do dips on.
Would using dips as a second chest exercise work?
Btw, if anyone is wondering why I still go to this gym, it’s because it’s my school gym and it’s free. Membership fee to a gym + cost of a train ride (can’t drive and biking up a hill home after leg day just isn’t happening) is too much for me.[/quote]

What kind of chest press machine only lets you add 20 kg of weight (which is like 45 pounds)? I think I started stronger than that.

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

What kind of chest press machine only lets you add 20 kg of weight (which is like 45 pounds)? I think I started stronger than that.[/quote]

He probably means he can add 10-20kg to what he is currently using, before the machine will be maxed out. Or perhaps it is selectorized, but he can add 10-20kg to it with free weights.

Lol, 20 kg chest press machine would be a hit at my gym though. The metrosexuals would love it.