Pyramid or Not?

Training Bodybuilding
61

[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
mertdawg wrote:

BB hacksquats are useless

i personally hate pullups.

if youre the same guy im thinking of, i dont think someone who just got told they lack intensity should be trying to do RP techniques. if youve never trained to failure before you arent going to be able to RP

No, not me. I have trained more like a (weak) powerlifter for the last 7-8 years. The main difference for me will be in doing sets in the 7-15 rep range while most of my stuff has been 2-6. Also switching to stricter movements.

I have power squatted 445 (not great) and benched 357.5, and front squatted 305. Most of my training has been something like 5 x 3, 4 x 6.

But the strict BB type exercises really cut my weight.

I bench 330 x 2 about a month ago and in one workout in Sept. did 342.5 for 10 singles in 15 minutes, but when I did strict BB type bench presses I could only do 155 x 12! so I at least have a lot of improvement I can make.

I have squatted 445, but again, strict, no-lockout close stance squats did just 215 x 8!

BB hack squats do seem to work for me much like a leg exension. I’ve seen Ronnie Coleman do them in videos and the way he does them seems to work. My other option would be lunges, or split squats or front squats.

thats my whole point and you just reaffirmed it.

youve been doing low rep strength work

it is absolutely different from rest pausing or training to failure.

you can go for it anyway, i know youre going to but dont be suprised when youre benching 225 for 12 RP’d.

[/quote]

I meant I wasn’t the guy in the intensity discussion. And to clarify, I have benched 225 x 17 with a powerlifter set-up, and tucked elbows etc, but I have basically trained myself to get the bar down as fast as possible and pop it back up so when I moved to a controlled rep and trying to use the pecs to lift the weight, I had the big drop-off.

The good news seems to be that i have a whole different avenue to pursue improvement in.

And I am not set on jumping into rest pause reps. I did the 20 rep squat routine a long time ago, but there is no way I could do it right now with any weight.

In the first couple workouts, I probably will either do
a) a couple of forced reps on my work set
b) a drop set after my work set
c) 2 work sets one in the 10-15 range and one in the 5-8 range with more weight (but still strict)

Anyway, when I think of RP I think of doing 10 reps, resting 45-90 secnonds and getting 3-4 more. That’s probably more like multiple sets. I have heard others say that rest pause means resting between just 10-15 seconds.

ALSO, I have used RP on lats, traps hams and calves which I train differently. Triceps too some times, and delts.

But since I have less strength endurance, wouldn’t breaking a set down into a rest pause set help me for a while?

Here’s another wierd example. I have benched 100 pound dumbells for 12 reps, and 135s for 1, with a power style, but I barely did 35s for 30 reps the other day with a stricter style. Benched 225 x 17, but only got 135 for 27.

And lastly, I have used higher intensity training back more than 6-8 years ago. I tried to train heavy duty before.

How is the system of ramping that most of these guys are using different from heavy duty (which gets dissed a lot around here)? I have a copy of blood and guts, but it’s been a long time.

I know that Mentzer only liked 1 exercise to target each muscle, and he preferred 1 rep range, and less extensive warmups.

I know that Yates used several exercises per muscle, seemed to put more into his warmups, and cycled his rep ranges.

62

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

go have a look at ironaddicts.com

CC I really like reading all your saying but isn’t IronAddict and most mod’s on that site in favor of straight sets? I’ve talked to most of them and seen most of the routines written out and it’s almost always straight sets
[/quote] What I actually meant was look at the volume vs frequency used in most of IA’s routines (especially the popular ones) vs. the volume many coaches who use straight sets on this site use. [quote]
(by the way are you a member there? If you are is it the same name?)
[/quote] No, I just browse IA occasionally. [quote]
-also feel free to just PM me this if you don’t want to throw it in the thread but you plan on competing sometime right? 5’9 at 280+lb. is HUGE and with a reasonable body fat too [/quote] Reasonable bodyfat? Hmmm :wink:
I’m busy easing myself into PL training via 5/3/1… So I’m more likely to do a pl meet before I ever do a bb show. You know, the getting big and strong part is where the fun lies for me. Not the “wear only a speedo in front of a lot of… Men…”-part.[quote], I would think your probably the biggest member on this forum.
[/quote] That I’m definitely not. [quote]
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

If you want, pm me your training stats and I’ll introduce you to a few different routines/approaches and we’ll see how you respond to them…

I think I might have said this before but honestly man you’ve got to be one of the most helpful members I’ve seen on any forum, willing to go out of your way to personally help other members with different approaches…for free lol[/quote] Thanks. Just proves that I’m an idiot :wink:

As for training methods… As I’ve mentioned… Go high volume if you can actually progress fast enough on that kind of stuff (and have very resilient joints/tendons, unlike me). But you’d have to be a Bauer or Waylander or so…

63

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
another:

edit: I posted at like 1min, but it looks like he actually ramps up but then does 4 straight sets at 150kg

Is this just for the interview you think? Dennis Wolf Training - YouTube

I was almost sure Dennis Wolf did ramping sets but it seems he did straight sets on everything there except on machine pull down he did 2 plates one set then 3 plates the next. Honestly didn’t look like he was pushing very hard on any of those sets.[/quote]

I’ve seen most of the German pro’s in the gym before… Wolf trains like everyone else (ramping).

Interviews and commercials aren’t the best source of training info…

There:

Keeps adding plates, does no straight sets.

That’s what I saw him do in the gym, too.

64

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

BB hacksquats are useless

i personally hate pullups.

if youre the same guy im thinking of, i dont think someone who just got told they lack intensity should be trying to do RP techniques. if youve never trained to failure before you arent going to be able to RP

No, not me. I have trained more like a (weak) powerlifter for the last 7-8 years. The main difference for me will be in doing sets in the 7-15 rep range while most of my stuff has been 2-6. Also switching to stricter movements.

I have power squatted 445 (not great) and benched 357.5, and front squatted 305. Most of my training has been something like 5 x 3, 4 x 6.

But the strict BB type exercises really cut my weight.

I bench 330 x 2 about a month ago and in one workout in Sept. did 342.5 for 10 singles in 15 minutes, but when I did strict BB type bench presses I could only do 155 x 12! so I at least have a lot of improvement I can make.

I have squatted 445, but again, strict, no-lockout close stance squats did just 215 x 8!

BB hack squats do seem to work for me much like a leg exension. I’ve seen Ronnie Coleman do them in videos and the way he does them seems to work. My other option would be lunges, or split squats or front squats.[/quote]

You know, If you want to try out ramping, then I’d really just do a regular bb split. Those two things kind of go together.

If you don’t want to split stuff up so much, consider this:
(also, I would stay away from rest-pause for now. Do regular sets for a month, then add in RP… Imo rest-pause works better with an exercise rotation, and is dangerous to do on lifts which involve the low-back etc.
If you have questions about RP and how to incorporate it, consider visiting the DC threads on here)

3-way, yates-inspired

Day 1 - Chest, Biceps, Triceps (yes, in that order to give tris a rest after chest)
Day 2 - Legs
Day 3 - Off
Day 4 - Delts, Back (in that order)
Day 5 - off
Day 6 - either restart the cycle or another off-day… You can do this routine over 3 days a week or repeat it after every 5th day… Your call.

(warmups in this case I’d do something like 8, 5-6, 3-4, work-set or so.

(for each “-”, pick one exercise that fits the category)

Chest
-Low incline exercise (bb, db, machine), ramp up over 4 sets with relatively even weight jumps. I’d use 6-10 or so as your rep-range. (move up in weight in small increments once you can do 8, 9 or 10 reps… Make sure you “own” the weight before moving up)
-flat or decline exercise (bb, db, machine) ramp over 3-4 sets. 6-10 on final set.

Bis
-alt. db curls, EZ curls, low cable-curls… Whatever. 3-4 sets (could go 8 reps, 4-6 reps, work set), ramped, 6-10.
-incline offset grip curls, preachers, machine curls… 2-3 sets ramped
6-10 or 8-12 on the last set.

Tris
-CGP (elbows tucked, grip as wide as necessary so that you can stay fully tucked…), In-Human Press, S-wide-RGB (DC grip), HS dips…
3-4 sets ramped, 6-10 on the last.
-PJR’s, Larry Scott Extensions, Rolling DB extensions on the floor, Lying EZ extensions (bar comes down behind head), … 3 sets or 4 sets ramped.

Legs

-Squats, Front squats, Leg Press, Hack Machine squats, Power squats, whatever. 4-5 sets ramped, 4-6 reps on top set (could do two sets here), then rest, reduce the weight some and do a 20 rep widowmaker… (which basically means that after 8-10 reps or so you hold the weight and catch your breath, then grind out a few more reps, repeat until you get 16-20 or so… If you do front-squats as your main exercise, do the widowmaker on the leg-press or hack machine. No warm-ups needed, though you could do one)

-Ham exercise (can be done before quads in case that the widowmaker just leaves you dead on the floor) like rev hypers, lying leg curls, sumo leg presses, SLDL’s… 3-4 sets, 6-10 on the last

-Calves (do the DC protocol for these if you think you can stomach it :wink:

-pulldown abs or whatever

delts

-Overhead press of any kind (DB, BB, smith high inclines ala Rühl would probably be a good idea, we’ve talked about them a lot in the forums recently) 4 sets, ramped up, 6-10

-Laterals, better machine laterals if you have a good lateral machine… 2-3 sets ramped… 8-15 or 6-10

-Backwidth (or thickness first, depending on which is weaker in your case): Pulldowns (don’t cheat too much), Rack Chins (if you know how to do them right), pullups (weighted), that kind of thing. 4 sets ramped, 6-12 or so. (I would suggest rack chins or pulldowns or HS machines over pullups here, seriously)… And keep your biceps out of the movement.

-Backthickness
Yates Rows, Rack Pulls (only if you didn’t do free-weight back squats and/or sldl’s on leg day. This split shouldn’t have low-back involvement on two days, if you want to do both deads or rack deads and back squats/sldls, rotate them each week/cycle!), Kroc Rows (if you can get the technique down), HS row machines… You get the idea.
Rack pulls are done with a back-shrug at the top, i.e. you pull your delts back, chest out and tense your upper back…

4-5 sets (less for rows, more for heavy pulls), 6-10 or 8-12 at the end if it’s a row (kroc rows are 12-25, and done sort of like a widowmaker squat with the pauses etc)… And one heavy 6-8 followed by one lighter 8-12 (or the other way around) if it’s a rack dead/deadlift.

-rear delts: pinch-grip rows (Grab the plates with their lips pointing out, instead of the bar. 10-15 or so as a rep range then, go light at first! that’s obviously not a regular bo row, weight-wise…), face pulls, rev. pec deck… 2-3 sets, ramped, 8-12

Ok, still with me?

2 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight, and no arguing.
You’ll stay weak forever if you don’t eat.

So.
I’d really suggest that you try such a format out (or a regular 4-way or even 5-way).

65

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
pumped340 wrote:
Professor X wrote:

It doesn’t even make sense to use the same weight on all sets. There have been many days I go into the gym and have a little trouble with a certain weight only to come back to it after two other exercises to find that it is much easier to rep with.

The more sets you do, the greater the chance that muscle fibers not initially fired can be affected by the movement. This also means if you are easily able to get 10 reps with THE SAME DAMN WEIGHT for 4 sets, then there is no doubt in my mind that the weight you are using isn’t challenging enough for you to see much growth.

It seems like the bolded part is actually an argument for straight sets. Maybe I’m looking at it wrong?

If a weight is getting easier to put up because more fibers are being activated, how the hell does it make sense to stay with the same weight as it gets easier for following sets? That is how you think muscles are stressed into growing?

The way I looked at it was that since you said more sets would affect fibers not initially stimulated it would make more sense to do more sets to stimulate those fibers. I guess thats not what your saying thats just how it came across to me. Misunderstanding I guess

Professor X wrote:

Along with that, if you can honestly put up the same weight for 10 full reps over three sets, why do you think that is enough to force growth? It can’t possibly be that much of a challenge if you got three sets out of it for the same number of reps.

Maybe your idea of intensity when training is drastically different than mine. I would never do that because common sense tells me if I can get that many reps out of it for that many sets then the weight isn’t heavy enough and I need to go up.

But wouldn’t it be a challenge by the 3rd set? Sure the first set wouldn’t be as hard but if your near failing on the 3rd set then thats obviously very intense for it to be hard enough for you to fail with that weight right? I understand that the point of the 1-2 work sets is that you will progress faster, I’m just wondering about your point that 3 sets with the same weight would somehow be easier when your still near failure on the last set you do.

(by the way I’m basically coming at this from a neutral point,I actually like the way you and CC are explaining, I’m just trying to figure out the reasoning behind what your saying)[/quote]

It is like you are more concerned with how many sets you are doing than whether the weight is going up.

Why the hell is that?

You all are caught up on “4 sets of this” and “10 reps of that”. That has to be the LEAST important aspect of getting stronger.

Is the weight challenging?

If you can get three full sets out of it at 10 reps each, I would say, Hell fuck no.

66

[quote]Professor X wrote:

It is like you are more concerned with how many sets you are doing than whether the weight is going up.

Why the hell is that?

You all are caught up on “4 sets of this” and “10 reps of that”. That has to be the LEAST important aspect of getting stronger. [/quote] Spot on… People here really seem to care only about whether they’re doing a certain amount of reps/tut/whatever with a certain percentage of their 1RM and that as long as they’re doing that and they’re eating a slight surplus, they’ll grow just fine.

As I mentioned before… What good is doing 4 sets of 12 with the same light weight on everything… Doesn’t matter if that were the ideal method to grow, because the body doesn’t grow big amounts of muscle without the weight on the bar increasing significantly.

4*12, straight sets… If you can get stronger fast that way, do it. But how many can?
It’s simply impractical. (add to that stress on joints/tendons from doing so much volume under working weight, how many here have tendonitis here, blown shoulder/rotator cuff there, knee pain, whatever… All the while not even benching 3 plates per side on their work set(s) or still being stuck in the 300 range on squats)

[quote]
Is the weight challenging?

If you can get three full sets out of it at 10 reps each, I would say, Hell fuck no.[/quote]

67

CC convinced me to cut some volume (I thought my body needed it) My joints feel better and all my lifts went up. I actually had the energy in the tank to pile some more weight on go figure.

You guys should always do what works for you. Also though I would urge some of you to try a lowere volume heavier weight approach. Just my 2cents.

68

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:

I like CT and of all the coaches on this site, he’s really the only one who’s articles I read anymore regularly. And from the pics of guys who he’s trained (the he posted) I’m certainly not going to argue that he gets results.

But, if you look at things from a big picture perspective, then what C_C and X have been saying about the fact that the majority of huge, strong BB’ers don’t train with tons of straight sets, but instead ramp up to a top set (maybe 2) per exercise still holds true.

You want to defy convention and go a different route than the one that most people effectively use to reach their goals, then no one is stopping you. Good luck to you in getting there (sincerely). Just don’t go telling people that the other way isn’t the right way to get there or that your way is in fact the most commonly used method. That’s what causes a lot of the confusion in the industry IMO.

We’re both on the same page here, I was just explaining to GoodFellow CT’s stance on the subject.

I agree with what your saying but nevertheless it is still confusing that such a top coach who trains so many people would write to do straight sets almost exclusively in the articles he writes for the average person reading the article if it wasn’t the best approach (again I’m not giving my opinion here, just pointing this stuff out)[/quote]

Emphasis mine.

Have you ever seen the “average person” train? Most people that I see working out in the gym barely break a sweat, and look pretty much exactly the same as they did this time last year (heck most look the same as they did when I first started going to this particular gym 4 years ago).

Also, how many “average people” have the goal of becoming monstrously muscular? Not many. Most men would be happy looking like Ryan Reynolds, or Brad Pitt in Fight Club.

Having trained lots of people, I’m sure that CT knows this all too well. As a result, he’s not going to write programs which require balls to the wall intensity and a hunger for building muscle that most people lack.

Now, if you watch some of those videos or pros training (Ronnie and Platz are great examples of this) and look at the intensity with which they are training, it’ll be like night and day. You must train with that kind of intensity if you wish to make “ramping” really work for you.

If all you’ve got is that one “work” set of that exercise to force the muscle to grow, then you’ve got to give it everything you’ve got. If you are going to half ass that set, then you aren’t going to get much out of it.

With straight sets, you don’t have to train as balls out, in fact, in many cases programs using straight sets actually tell you NOT to go all out on the earlier sets (some even tell you not to go all out on the later sets). Here, they use volume or accumulated fatigue to make sure that you fatigue your muscles.

Now, in most cases, as C_C and X keep harping on, straight sets mean that you are working well below what you are actually capable of using in terms of weight, or if you are actually lifting anywhere hear your potential will destroy you from a recovery/progression perspective (unless you’re a freak like Bauer or Waylander), and will cause much more wear and tear on your joints over the long run (btw, I’m not talking about low rep powerlifting type training, ME work, that’s a slightly different animal).

So, which makes more sense to have the “average person” do,
-a program which is going to ask something of them that they aren’t willing to give (blood vessel bursting intensity);

or

-a program that takes into consideration their lack of desire to go balls out and instead taxes their muscles through accumulated fatigue?

69

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
3-way, yates-inspired

Day 1 - Chest, Biceps, Triceps (yes, in that order to give tris a rest after chest)
Day 2 - Legs
Day 3 - Off
Day 4 - Delts, Back (in that order)
Day 5 - off
Day 6 - either restart the cycle or another off-day… You can do this routine over 3 days a week or repeat it after every 5th day… Your call.

(warmups in this case I’d do something like 8, 5-6, 3-4, work-set or so.

(for each “-”, pick one exercise that fits the category)

Chest
-Low incline exercise (bb, db, machine), ramp up over 4 sets with relatively even weight jumps. I’d use 6-10 or so as your rep-range. (move up in weight in small increments once you can do 8, 9 or 10 reps… Make sure you “own” the weight before moving up)
-flat or decline exercise (bb, db, machine) ramp over 3-4 sets. 6-10 on final set.

Bis
-alt. db curls, EZ curls, low cable-curls… Whatever. 3-4 sets (could go 8 reps, 4-6 reps, work set), ramped, 6-10.
-incline offset grip curls, preachers, machine curls… 2-3 sets ramped
6-10 or 8-12 on the last set.

Tris
-CGP (elbows tucked, grip as wide as necessary so that you can stay fully tucked…), In-Human Press, S-wide-RGB (DC grip), HS dips…
3-4 sets ramped, 6-10 on the last.
-PJR’s, Larry Scott Extensions, Rolling DB extensions on the floor, Lying EZ extensions (bar comes down behind head), … 3 sets or 4 sets ramped.

Legs

-Squats, Front squats, Leg Press, Hack Machine squats, Power squats, whatever. 4-5 sets ramped, 4-6 reps on top set (could do two sets here), then rest, reduce the weight some and do a 20 rep widowmaker… (which basically means that after 8-10 reps or so you hold the weight and catch your breath, then grind out a few more reps, repeat until you get 16-20 or so… If you do front-squats as your main exercise, do the widowmaker on the leg-press or hack machine. No warm-ups needed, though you could do one)

-Ham exercise (can be done before quads in case that the widowmaker just leaves you dead on the floor) like rev hypers, lying leg curls, sumo leg presses, SLDL’s… 3-4 sets, 6-10 on the last

-Calves (do the DC protocol for these if you think you can stomach it :wink:

-pulldown abs or whatever

delts

-Overhead press of any kind (DB, BB, smith high inclines ala Rühl would probably be a good idea, we’ve talked about them a lot in the forums recently) 4 sets, ramped up, 6-10

-Laterals, better machine laterals if you have a good lateral machine… 2-3 sets ramped… 8-15 or 6-10

-Backwidth (or thickness first, depending on which is weaker in your case): Pulldowns (don’t cheat too much), Rack Chins (if you know how to do them right), pullups (weighted), that kind of thing. 4 sets ramped, 6-12 or so. (I would suggest rack chins or pulldowns or HS machines over pullups here, seriously)… And keep your biceps out of the movement.

-Backthickness
Yates Rows, Rack Pulls (only if you didn’t do free-weight back squats and/or sldl’s on leg day. This split shouldn’t have low-back involvement on two days, if you want to do both deads or rack deads and back squats/sldls, rotate them each week/cycle!), Kroc Rows (if you can get the technique down), HS row machines… You get the idea.
Rack pulls are done with a back-shrug at the top, i.e. you pull your delts back, chest out and tense your upper back…

4-5 sets (less for rows, more for heavy pulls), 6-10 or 8-12 at the end if it’s a row (kroc rows are 12-25, and done sort of like a widowmaker squat with the pauses etc)… And one heavy 6-8 followed by one lighter 8-12 (or the other way around) if it’s a rack dead/deadlift.

-rear delts: pinch-grip rows (Grab the plates with their lips pointing out, instead of the bar. 10-15 or so as a rep range then, go light at first! that’s obviously not a regular bo row, weight-wise…), face pulls, rev. pec deck… 2-3 sets, ramped, 8-12

Ok, still with me?

2 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight, and no arguing.
You’ll stay weak forever if you don’t eat.[/quote]

Wow that has got to be one of the most useful and informative posts on bodybuilding ever.

[quote]So.
I’d really suggest that you try such a format out (or a regular 4-way or even 5-way).

[/quote]

Can you outline how you would set up a 4 or 5 way split using a similar method? Would there be more exercises per bodypart or just shorter workouts?

70

[quote]SquatDeep385 wrote:

Can you outline how you would set up a 4 or 5 way split using a similar method? Would there be more exercises per bodypart or just shorter workouts?[/quote]

Ha!

Many, when attempting to split up their body more, fall into the trap of thinking “well, I train 6 days a week, one muscle-group per day now… So I can easily triple my volume per bodypart and recover from that, right?”

You can indeed use more exercises, but overdoing it is going to cause you to pretty much stagnate, especially as a natty who doesn’t get to use huge amounts of test for extra strength gain…

If you’ve previously done a 2-way with 1 exercise per bodypart, then obviously you’d do 2-3 (4 maybe for back/delts/legs) now on a 6-way… Provided we’re talking ramping up to one top set or one rest-pause set or maybe a heavy and a less heavy set per exercise (or at least on some).

But if you’ve been doing a 4-way thus far… Then chances are that you just need to seperate the muscle-groups you formerly trained together (like chest+tris or whatever you did) and leave it at that as you’re likely already doing 2-3 exercises per muscle-group. [quote]

With 3-5 straights sets and 3-6 exercises per bodypart on a 6-way, well, even most pro’s wouldn’t do well on that kind of routine…
As I said, high volume genetics are required for that :slight_smile:
Everyone else just ends up stalling all the time.

I’ll go into detail on how I like to set up 4-ways and 5-ways in the thread I’m going to start in the t-cell. Give me some time to get that stuff prepared.

Read “professor X: a request” again, he describes his old 4-way and also how he trains now with a 5-way (though the split isn’t set in stone so he’ll train whatever feels ready that day, I believe).

71

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
mertdawg wrote:

BB hacksquats are useless

i personally hate pullups.

if youre the same guy im thinking of, i dont think someone who just got told they lack intensity should be trying to do RP techniques. if youve never trained to failure before you arent going to be able to RP

No, not me. I have trained more like a (weak) powerlifter for the last 7-8 years. The main difference for me will be in doing sets in the 7-15 rep range while most of my stuff has been 2-6. Also switching to stricter movements.

I have power squatted 445 (not great) and benched 357.5, and front squatted 305. Most of my training has been something like 5 x 3, 4 x 6.

But the strict BB type exercises really cut my weight.

I bench 330 x 2 about a month ago and in one workout in Sept. did 342.5 for 10 singles in 15 minutes, but when I did strict BB type bench presses I could only do 155 x 12! so I at least have a lot of improvement I can make.

I have squatted 445, but again, strict, no-lockout close stance squats did just 215 x 8!

BB hack squats do seem to work for me much like a leg exension. I’ve seen Ronnie Coleman do them in videos and the way he does them seems to work. My other option would be lunges, or split squats or front squats.

You know, If you want to try out ramping, then I’d really just do a regular bb split. Those two things kind of go together.

If you don’t want to split stuff up so much, consider this:
(also, I would stay away from rest-pause for now. Do regular sets for a month, then add in RP… Imo rest-pause works better with an exercise rotation, and is dangerous to do on lifts which involve the low-back etc.
If you have questions about RP and how to incorporate it, consider visiting the DC threads on here)

3-way, yates-inspired

Day 1 - Chest, Biceps, Triceps (yes, in that order to give tris a rest after chest)
Day 2 - Legs
Day 3 - Off
Day 4 - Delts, Back (in that order)
Day 5 - off
Day 6 - either restart the cycle or another off-day… You can do this routine over 3 days a week or repeat it after every 5th day… Your call.

(warmups in this case I’d do something like 8, 5-6, 3-4, work-set or so.

(for each “-”, pick one exercise that fits the category)

Chest
-Low incline exercise (bb, db, machine), ramp up over 4 sets with relatively even weight jumps. I’d use 6-10 or so as your rep-range. (move up in weight in small increments once you can do 8, 9 or 10 reps… Make sure you “own” the weight before moving up)
-flat or decline exercise (bb, db, machine) ramp over 3-4 sets. 6-10 on final set.

Bis
-alt. db curls, EZ curls, low cable-curls… Whatever. 3-4 sets (could go 8 reps, 4-6 reps, work set), ramped, 6-10.
-incline offset grip curls, preachers, machine curls… 2-3 sets ramped
6-10 or 8-12 on the last set.

Tris
-CGP (elbows tucked, grip as wide as necessary so that you can stay fully tucked…), In-Human Press, S-wide-RGB (DC grip), HS dips…
3-4 sets ramped, 6-10 on the last.
-PJR’s, Larry Scott Extensions, Rolling DB extensions on the floor, Lying EZ extensions (bar comes down behind head), … 3 sets or 4 sets ramped.

Legs

-Squats, Front squats, Leg Press, Hack Machine squats, Power squats, whatever. 4-5 sets ramped, 4-6 reps on top set (could do two sets here), then rest, reduce the weight some and do a 20 rep widowmaker… (which basically means that after 8-10 reps or so you hold the weight and catch your breath, then grind out a few more reps, repeat until you get 16-20 or so… If you do front-squats as your main exercise, do the widowmaker on the leg-press or hack machine. No warm-ups needed, though you could do one)

-Ham exercise (can be done before quads in case that the widowmaker just leaves you dead on the floor) like rev hypers, lying leg curls, sumo leg presses, SLDL’s… 3-4 sets, 6-10 on the last

-Calves (do the DC protocol for these if you think you can stomach it :wink:

-pulldown abs or whatever

delts

-Overhead press of any kind (DB, BB, smith high inclines ala Rühl would probably be a good idea, we’ve talked about them a lot in the forums recently) 4 sets, ramped up, 6-10

-Laterals, better machine laterals if you have a good lateral machine… 2-3 sets ramped… 8-15 or 6-10

-Backwidth (or thickness first, depending on which is weaker in your case): Pulldowns (don’t cheat too much), Rack Chins (if you know how to do them right), pullups (weighted), that kind of thing. 4 sets ramped, 6-12 or so. (I would suggest rack chins or pulldowns or HS machines over pullups here, seriously)… And keep your biceps out of the movement.

-Backthickness
Yates Rows, Rack Pulls (only if you didn’t do free-weight back squats and/or sldl’s on leg day. This split shouldn’t have low-back involvement on two days, if you want to do both deads or rack deads and back squats/sldls, rotate them each week/cycle!), Kroc Rows (if you can get the technique down), HS row machines… You get the idea.
Rack pulls are done with a back-shrug at the top, i.e. you pull your delts back, chest out and tense your upper back…

4-5 sets (less for rows, more for heavy pulls), 6-10 or 8-12 at the end if it’s a row (kroc rows are 12-25, and done sort of like a widowmaker squat with the pauses etc)… And one heavy 6-8 followed by one lighter 8-12 (or the other way around) if it’s a rack dead/deadlift.

-rear delts: pinch-grip rows (Grab the plates with their lips pointing out, instead of the bar. 10-15 or so as a rep range then, go light at first! that’s obviously not a regular bo row, weight-wise…), face pulls, rev. pec deck… 2-3 sets, ramped, 8-12

Ok, still with me?

2 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight, and no arguing.
You’ll stay weak forever if you don’t eat.

So.
I’d really suggest that you try such a format out (or a regular 4-way or even 5-way).
[/quote]

Great post C_C, some awesome information right there!

72

You make a good point Sentoguy. Still seems a bit odd for him to purposely do that but you made it clearer with your post.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

If you can get three full sets out of it at 10 reps each, I would say, Hell fuck no.[/quote]

my point is just that if you could only do 10 reps on the last set, that 10th rep would sure be challenging. I get what your saying, all I’m saying is that last set would obviously be very challenging since you couldn’t do another rep

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[quote]pumped340 wrote:
You make a good point Sentoguy. Still seems a bit odd for him to purposely do that but you made it clearer with your post.

Professor X wrote:

If you can get three full sets out of it at 10 reps each, I would say, Hell fuck no.

my point is just that if you could only do 10 reps on the last set, that 10th rep would sure be challenging. I get what your saying, all I’m saying is that last set would obviously be very challenging since you couldn’t do another rep[/quote]

It can’t be “very challenging”. My idea of “very challenging” involves me NOT being able to get 10 full reps out of it.

You are doing a weight you can EASILY get 10 reps with for four whole sets. How do I know it’s easy? because you did the damn thing for 10 reps four times in a row.

The big guys do not make their number of reps and sets the primary concern. That is why no one gives a shit whether you use “5x5” or any other number combination you might come up with. This shit isn’t magic. If you aren’t going heavy, you are not training with high intensity no matter how “challenging” you might think that last rep is.

74

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
SquatDeep385 wrote:

Can you outline how you would set up a 4 or 5 way split using a similar method? Would there be more exercises per bodypart or just shorter workouts?

Ha!

Many, when attempting to split up their body more, fall into the trap of thinking “well, I train 6 days a week, one muscle-group per day now… So I can easily triple my volume per bodypart and recover from that, right?”

You can indeed use more exercises, but overdoing it is going to cause you to pretty much stagnate, especially as a natty who doesn’t get to use huge amounts of test for extra strength gain…

If you’ve previously done a 2-way with 1 exercise per bodypart, then obviously you’d do 2-3 (4 maybe for back/delts/legs) now on a 6-way… Provided we’re talking ramping up to one top set or one rest-pause set or maybe a heavy and a less heavy set per exercise (or at least on some).

With 3-5 straights sets and 3-6 exercises per bodypart on a 6-way, well, even most pro’s wouldn’t do well on that kind of routine…
As I said, high volume genetics are required for that :slight_smile:
Everyone else just ends up stalling all the time.

I’ll go into detail on how I like to set up 4-ways and 5-ways in the thread I’m going to start in the t-cell. Give me some time to get that stuff prepared.

Read “professor X: a request” again, he describes his old 4-way and also how he trains now with a 5-way (though the split isn’t set in stone so he’ll train whatever feels ready that day, I believe).

[/quote]

Even after increasing my volume, I am still out of the gym most days in about 45min.

There was a thread a while back where people were doing damn near 40 sets for shoulders alone. I have no doubt that someone like that isn’t lifting very heavy (or very focused). You wouldn’t be able to do all of that if you were, especially for one single muscle group.

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[quote]Professor X wrote:

Even after increasing my volume, I am still out of the gym most days in about 45min.

There was a thread a while back where people were doing damn near 40 sets for shoulders alone. I have no doubt that someone like that isn’t lifting very heavy (or very focused). You wouldn’t be able to do all of that if you were, especially for one single muscle group.[/quote]

You know, he might even be lifting heavy/focused to the best of his ability… But I’m simply not seeing many people succeed with that much workload. Especially drug-free.
They seem to forget that just because you don’t have a heart-attack after a workout and are “recovering”, doesn’t mean you’re also going to be able to get consistently stronger!

Most on here who try out “split training” end up doing a ton of straight sets and a ton of exercises per bodypart… No wonder they hate splits. They seem to think that splits and ultra-high volume go together.

You always hear people talking about how pro’s use insane volume and whatnot (thinking that they’re doing straight sets, no doubt), and then those very people will try out routines from articles… Which have infinitely more volume than any pro could get strong on.

And that leads to constant stalling/very slow progress (if any) and constant switching of routines.

That and not focusing on progression and food intake.

The whole issue is just plain messed up.

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[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

The whole issue is just plain messed up.

[/quote]

Because all of what they know was gained on the internet and not by actually watching some really big lifters train.

I never knew anyone who was much over 200lbs growing up who didn’t “ramp up” or whatever you want to call it. We called that pyramiding up in weight. It didn’t get much more complicated than that. The EXACT number of reps isn’t even that relevant unless someone is doing something extremely low rep or extremely high rep.

In the end, what does it matter if you did 6 reps on your last set instead of 10? The thing that matters is that the last 6 rep set was done with a weight so heavy that you truly stopped BECAUSE YOU COULDN’T GET MORE FULL REPS EVEN IF YOU TRIED TO.

They want technical bullshit to take the place of hard work. I mean, look at this thread! Something this simple is being turned into some kind of college level science project when NONE of that is necessary.

That doesn’t mean being big means being stupid either. It just means you need to be smart enough to focus on what really matters.

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[quote]Professor X wrote:

It just means you need to be smart enough to focus on what really matters.[/quote]

Quoted for emphasis. That’s exactly where most here mess up badly.

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Hey guys, Ive been reading this site for a while, and I have to say this is one of the best threads I have read.

I just want to clarify one thing with someone who uses ramping,

say I want to ramp up to a bench of 200lbs for 10 reps

so I could go
80x10
120x10
160x10
200x10 (or failure)

do I try and make those first 3 sets as intense as possible, so doing very slow controlled reps, or do I just do them as normal warm up sets and go all out on the last set?

Apologies if I have misunderstood the whole thing

thx

79

[quote]Anonymas wrote:
Hey guys, Ive been reading this site for a while, and I have to say this is one of the best threads I have read.

I just want to clarify one thing with someone who uses ramping,

say I want to ramp up to a bench of 200lbs for 10 reps

so I could go
80x10
120x10
160x10
200x10 (or failure) [/quote] You could even start lighter and go up in slightly bigger weight-increments.
Doesn’t matter that much at that strength level, though.

Could also just do 3 sets, because you’re not using a lot of weight yet.:
9010
145-1555-6
200*AMAP

Then add a warm-up set once you’re stronger. Doesn’t matter all that much, though.[quote]
do I try and make those first 3 sets as intense as possible, so doing very slow controlled reps, or do I just do them as normal warm up sets and go all out on the last set? [/quote] One generally uses an explosive positive and controlled negative in bbing, I’d just make sure that your warm-ups are all “good” reps.
You go all out on the last set. The other sets are for preparing you etc, if you waste too much energy on them, how are you going to get stronger on the last set?[quote]

Apologies if I have misunderstood the whole thing

thx[/quote]

80

cheers, thats as I thought. I think ill start doing this instead of straight sets as I do feel as if im doing too much volume atm