Thats what the entire discussions been my friend. I don’t think expense is a deterant as most of the lifters here have access to a gym with both.
I don’t think theres any question that pull-ups with 200 vs pull-downs would be more admirable its more discussion of whether or not theres an increased benefit to doing one over the other.
Is there anything to back up pull ups being better then pull downs?
And if so does that apply to the pros, because when i watching ronnies body building movies and even the old school ones like pumping iron (which i has the best quotes of all time)they are all doing pull downs.
“personally I would be slightly embarrased to squat 800 and only do a few chin-ups”
I’d happliy not be able to do any bw exercises if I could squat 800lbs!!! Where do i sign up.
As an athlete you can build muscle, as well as testing your relative body strength.
If you can keep improving your chin-ups, you will be improving your strength for body weight (relative strength).And also improving your sprint speed.
Pulldowns are good for building lats, an athlete should do these as well. But improving his chin-up record’s more important for him/her.
[quote]tomrowe wrote:
If you can keep improving your chin-ups, you will be improving your strength for body weight (relative strength).And also improving your sprint speed.
[/quote]
Are you seriously saying chin-ups improve sprint speed?
I’d bet that strong, heavy guys do pull-downs instead of weighted pull-ups because the latter can cause some serious arm pain.
It doesn’t make sense when average lifters justify not doing certain lifts because their favorite powerlifters don’t do them. If you weigh 185 and don’t do pull-ups because Andy Bolton doesn’t do them, you might want to re-think your logic.
[quote]Hanley wrote:
tomrowe wrote:
If you can keep improving your chin-ups, you will be improving your strength for body weight (relative strength).And also improving your sprint speed.
Are you seriously saying chin-ups improve sprint speed?[/quote]
Actually, quite a few top sprint coaches claim that chins and pulldowns can help to improve speed.
Ben Johnson was very strong on lat pulldowns. Most elite 100m runners have very strong upper bodies.
I think that upper body strength work for sprinters is comparable to direct ab work for powerlifters and o-lifters. It’s not completely necessary, but it can be of some benefit.
[quote]Power GnP wrote:
Thats what the entire discussions been my friend. I don’t think expense is a deterant as most of the lifters here have access to a gym with both.
I don’t think theres any question that pull-ups with 200 vs pull-downs would be more admirable its more discussion of whether or not theres an increased benefit to doing one over the other.[/quote]
i still don’t see why one is more “admirable” than the other, or even harder than the other…i mean who cares what the number is ? if 200 is easier on the pulldown it doesn’t take a genius to realize you just add more weight when you do them. wouldn’t not adding enough resistance to a given exercise = “mental weakness” more than the exercise itself ?
if i were in gym doing a set of 20 pullups right next to dave tate or ronnie hauling 400 on a pulldown i’m pretty sure nobody would be looking @ me.
I’ve never seen a fat guy dong lots of Pull ups, but they’re always on the Cable Pulldown.
[quote]Mr. Strong wrote:
I’ve never seen a fat guy dong lots of Pull ups, but they’re always on the Cable Pulldown.
[/quote]
So pulldowns must make you fat!!
Pulldowns are functional, On Predator Arnie and his pals did a group pull-down on a tree to make a snare to catch the predator, it didnt work because he cut his way out but this still makes it functional. I couldnt find a picture, so sorry.
And then on Soldier with Kurt Russel, he did a one arm pulldown on an old propeller blade or something to cut out the bad guys stomach at the end. Even more functional. Their is two examples of how pull-downs are functional with real world fictional events.
The Predator did a ton of pull-ups climbing the trees and such, Arnie did the pull-downs, now the Predator is dead, and Arnie is not. Im not saying pull-downs will save your life, but why risk it.
[quote]tomrowe wrote:
If you can keep improving your chin-ups, you will be improving your strength for body weight (relative strength).And also improving your sprint speed.
[/quote]
It has been written - I believe in several places - that while chin-ups/pullups are a good PREDICTOR of an athletes sprint speed, working to improve them will not have an effect on sprint speed. It’s just a general test of relative strength IN GENERAL, improving relative strength in this SPECIFIC exercise wont have an effect on your sprint.
Also, I just wanted to let everyone know that in honor of this thread, instead of doing pullups tonight, as I had planned, I instead did hammer strength iso behind-the-neck pulldowns (and no, I’m not making the name up, thats what it said on the equipment. I worked up to 3x5@115 per hand (comdined thats about 10-15 lbs less than bw, but hey, who cares, I’m mentally weak because i did them anyway) although I’m a strength athlete I did enjoy the squeeze I was able to get in my back each rep. Just wanted to share that with yall
[quote]FightingScott wrote:
Pull-ups are better than Pull-downs because there is a greater neuro-muscular training effect felt with closed-chain exercises where the lifter moves their body around the bar instead of moving their bar around their body.
Because of this, pull-ups will teach your muscle and central nervous system to be stronger. Pull-downs do not do as good of a job at this. Greater strength gains and greater muscle activation = bigger muscle. [/quote]
missed this when it was first posted…
interesting. so would you contend that with greater cns stimulation comes great cns fatigue? im just asking since pullups are so frequently done every day when treated as calisthenics (by the marines, etc) that it seems unlikely that it could be a cns intensive exercise.
[quote]Lat Pulldowns also allow you to cheat much more than Pull-ups do. [/quote] well, is that such a bad thing tho 
THAT is a whole other thread
[quote]Hanley wrote:
Mr. Strong wrote:
I’ve never seen a fat guy dong lots of Pull ups, but they’re always on the Cable Pulldown.
So pulldowns must make you fat!![/quote]
I’ve been getting a chuckle out of some of your posts recently 
I do have to say, being a big guy weighing in around 280, that while I can do a couple pull ups, 3 or 4 a set, I develop shoulder joint pain. I dont get shoulder pain from pull downs. This could be cause by the shear fatness hanging down but I know that when I do pull ups a few weeks in arow my shoulders will start hurting.
[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
Hanley wrote:
tomrowe wrote:
If you can keep improving your chin-ups, you will be improving your strength for body weight (relative strength). And also improving your sprint speed.
Are you seriously saying chin-ups improve sprint speed?
Actually, quite a few top sprint coaches claim that chins and pulldowns can help to improve speed.
Ben Johnson was very strong on lat pulldowns. Most elite 100m runners have very strong upper bodies.
I think that upper body strength work for sprinters is comparable to direct ab work for powerlifters and o-lifters. It’s not completely necessary, but it can be of some benefit.
[/quote]
Correlation does not equal causation.
Also, I’d like to throw out that there is no way to REDUCE the training load below bodyweight with a chin-up. If you want to do super-high reps, or drop-sets to exhaustion, it is impossible to do this with chin-ups unless you’re already a monster at it.
If you use one of those assisted chin stations or graviton machines, you are effectively making the motion the same as the pull-down, only with slightly less freedom of motion since your feet are now immobilized. You are now basically imitating a machine movement in one pattern. A cable might be superior if this is what you are doing.
There’s a time and place for everything.
I use both.
Also, it is worth noting that I can FEEL the movement more with pull-downs. This makes them valuable from a mind-muscle link standpoint.
Do what you want, but understand why you do it. I have a torn right labrum, so I avoid any lat work that gets more of the internal rotation component and stick to scapular retraction work.
As for chins, since I powerlift, pulldowns give me a little more of what I want. I have more variety and aren’t restricted to 200 pounds of weight. I can do a wider variety of reps ranges and weight ranges with various pulldown bars and handles.
What’s the big deal here? Boyle expressed his point well and if you take it as gospel then you are the dude who should probably be doing more chins and pull ups. Opinions change as do audiences. Several people here act like membership on this free website actually makes them a (personally) successful builder / lifter but it unfortunately does not so his article is not misplaced.
My two cents? You will start your back workout with some deads, chins and pull-ups and you will be doing lower weight good form pulldowns (with various grip widths) at the end to completely define and shred you back in certain spots and places.
[quote]FightingScott wrote:
Sometimes he does pull-ups but most of the time
he does Pulldowns. He does cable pulldowns
with around 350 pounds and machine pulldowns
with around 500 pounds.
[/quote]
What exactly is the difference between a cable and a machine lat pulldown?