[quote]ZEB wrote:
I know what you mean, but the seeming control freaks over there at crossfit are quite a bit different than the sort who lead this site. You would have to agree with me on that one. No?
[/quote]
RE: the leadership of the sites, yes. I agree. Individual posters is really what I was referring to, but I’m sure you knew what I meant.
Matt
Muscle ups are bad-ass. I’ve been working hard for the past couple weeks on rings, trying to get one.
elars21 (or anybody else who has done one), could you give me some idea of what your pull-up and dip strength and bodyweight is? One recommendation is to start training the MU when you have 15 pull-ups and 15 ring dips, but I’ve been there (or close to there) and wasn’t very close to getting the muscle-up.
Regarding Xfit:
It’s been said before and I guess it has to be said again: The WorkOut of the Day is CrossFit (adjective), but CrossFit (noun) is not the WOD. The WOD is an EXAMPLE of a CrossFit program geared. It places a heavier emphasis on strength-endurance and aerobic capacity than I am interested in, but there are other ways to do CrossFit that place a heavier emphasis on anaerobic capacity and power. Those who want to see an example of this should skim the workouts posted to ‘Comments’ on the Xfit front page for the Workouts of Josh Everett, a competitive Oly Lifter and strength coach who also runs blazing hot sprints and can knock off cals and high-rep barbell and kettlebell exercises easily.
Incidentally, ZEB, you wouldn’t have posted on CrossFit’s message board as one ‘Ben Gimball,’ would you?
Hey Ross seems we had this conversation a few months back. You always seem to get the hairs on the back of your neck a little ruffled when someone mentions crossfit in less than glowing terms.
I have stated countless times that CF does emphasize strength endurance and I think that’s a fine thing. We agree on this. The problem is they pretty much try to pass themselves off as the “holy grail” of fitness training, and that’s a bad thing!
Not trying to tick you off pal, but crossfit is exactly what I stated it to be. Now, there is nothing wrong with that, as long as people realize going in exactly what they have when they sign up for crossfit. It is a limited endurance strength program promoted on a mom and pop type site, which demands strict adherence to various crossfit dogma. Again, nothing wrong with that if you like that sort of thing.
As far as crossfit not being the wod, I think you are technically correct. However, when you have a web site and you promote one specific (always strength endurance from what I saw)workout each day at that web site, the affiliation is sort of strong don’t you think?
What would be your first thought if TC posted one sort of training regimen, wihch adheres to only one methodology, daily? No other system is welcome! No dissenters need apply! I know what I would think.
Finally, to answer your question, I have never posted on the crossfit site. However, if I decide to do so I will let you know first so that you can warn everyone…lol. Kidding relax…
ZEB:
What I find interesting is that you often bring forth several points. You’ve said:
A.) Crossfit isn’t the optimal way to build muscle. OK, agreed.
B.) Crossfit won’t build any muscle or will make you lose muscle. This is pure and utter baloney and you simply cannot substantiate this.
You’ll never add 100% doing kipping pull-ups. That’s ludicrous. Give it a try.
What you don’t understand is that Crossfit is about FITNESS. You can talk about it not building maximum muscle mass till you’re blue in the face (which I suspect you will do ;)). That also explains why they’re not a fan of most bodybuilding moves (it goes counter to their goals!).
About the whole free speech thing… free speech is good. This is irrelevant to whether or not crossfit works. You get more stiffled discussion but also higher quality (and you also get more conformity, which isn’t necessarily a good thing IMO–I agree with you).
I really don’t think it’s difficult to acknowledge that Crossfit works well and T-Mag works great as well.
ZEB,
I’m curious what your thoughts are on creating a better fitness template than one which includes randomized functional movements performed at high intensity? It’s pretty common sense to me.
Zulu:
Well, you agree with me on some of my points, so at least we have some common ground.
Let’s begin with “(B)”. If the typical Ectomorph were to do the typical crossfit daily routine they would not build muscle! Can I prove this? No, however it stands to reason that anyone with a thin build who is forced to run 800 meter sprints with various reps of one or two exercises in between is probably not going to build muscle.
How many times have we heard from those who call themselves “hard gainers” on this very site? They are doing a three day per week routine, which actually makes sense for building muscle, and they still can’t gain! Do you think running around a track everyday will help these people? More importantly has crossfit ever proven that their regime builds muscle for anyone, much less Ectomorphs? Shouldn’t the onus of proof be upon those who are attempting to promote a certain model of training?
I know here at T-Nation Coaches are always pushed as to whom they have trained. How long certain things take to actually work etc. At crossfit there seems to be a suspension of reality. “Just swallow the pill and you will be fine trust us.” It seems that they are the ones lacking in the proof department.
By the way if you agree with me on (A) “It is not the optimal way to build muscle” then why do you think that crossfit has a good program for those who have a difficult time building muscle? Why wouldn’t this percentage of the population need “optimal methodologies?”
With that said I think that sort of routine would possibly work for someone who is considered an Endomorph. Again, I have no proof, but neither do they!
As far as “kipping” Pull-ups, you will do a great deal more using this method than if you did dead hang Pull-ups. Is it 100% more? Not sure, but I bet it’s close. I know that when I do Pull-ups if I am even allowed a little knee jerk I can get an additional 10 over and above what I can usually do. I can imagine with a full kip I could do quite a few more beyond that.
You really want to argue percentages? My original point was to classify what they consider a Pull-up in order to dispute a claim by a previous poster who stated that some women at crossfit could do 20 Pull-ups. 20 kipping Pull-ups are not 20 dead hang Pull-ups by any stretch of the imagination.
Let’s continue: I understand full well that crossfit is about “FITNESS.” Two points, first if they are about fitness then why does their “Coach” claim that people can build as much or more muscle than on a bodybuilding program? (Don’t make me get the quote) Secondly, what is the point of putting down bodybuilders? If your system is good then people will naturally gravitate to it. Why put down other forms of training? There are two ways to make yourself look good. The first is actually being better than your competition. The second is by trying to push your competition down so that you look better.
By the way, there are many, many great bodybuilding movements which get people in great shape, Squats, Chin-ups, Overhead Pressing, etc. It’s not just about working in isolation, is it? Therefore, why attack the entire genre? Seems narrow minded and quite small to me.
You stated: “About the whole free speech thing… free speech is good. This is irrelevant to whether or not crossfit works.” Actually, my original critique was more all encompassing of crossfit. Therefore, I included my opinion of their web site, which as I tried to point out is sub-par.
You stated: “You get more stiffled discussion but also higher quality (and you also get more conformity, which isn’t necessarily a good thing IMO–I agree with you).” Well, glad you agree. I don’t think “stifled discussion” is ever really a good thing, especially when it extends to those who disagree with their main theme. In other words we are not talking about stifling only trolls.
Furthermore, I think there is a higher quality of discussion on T-Nation (if we had to compare). Yes, there is also a lower level of discussion here as well. You have both ends of the spectrum, because of the freedom. But because it is a “free” environment you get more thought provoking discussion because people are not afraid to speak their mind and offer various alternatives to the subject matter.
I disagree with part of your final statement. I don’t think crossfit works “well.” I think for most people to actually get it to work “well” they would have to be the right body type and also change the pure day in and day out drudgery of the daily wod routine. Come on, we both know that most people are not going to keep that up every day through out the year without making drastic modifications.
It’s not “common sense” to encourage anyone to go full bore six days per week. There are many reasons for this, injury, mental burn out, lack of progress. It’s just not a good idea is it?
Functional movements are a fine idea. However, we are way past that with crossfit. Here is a quote from their “coach” he is bragging about how difficult their daily training is:
"For you research types the condition is “Rabdomyolysis”. It was first identified in the victims of crush injury during the WWII bombing raids of London. Now CrossFit.
That’s been our line all along. The workouts are tougher than men."
Yea, sure coach, I think it has been stated far more eloquently than I could by the many quality coaches on this site. It’s not how hard you are working, but the results that you obtain from doing what you do. Some would say working hard without working smart can be foolish!
I can design a workout that will leave you in a sweating heap zulu. Does that make me a good coach? Does it mean that it’s a good routine? I suppose it would depend on your goals, but either way it?s not difficult to design a gut wrenching routine. I think they are very, very confused!
Are you a member at crossfit? If so what would you do to improve the site? You don’t seem the type to have swallowed their pill.
ZEB,
I posted at Crossfit, and I left after discussing some points that were not well recieved.
Firstly, I did crossfit for 3 months and made the best gains of my life (I’m a newbie…but I had actually plateaued before that). Now I’m doing my own thing (with a lot of crossfit influence) and doing even better. I gained a fair bit of muscle. That’s just a personal anecdote.
I’ll just outline a few points:
You will build muscle on crossfit. You’re lifting weights for god’s sake!
Crossfit has a lot of proof behind it. Just check the WOD times posted. Some of these guys can run 10k in 38 minutes and deadlift 400lbs and do 30 pull-ups.
I personally think Coach glassman should drop the whole point about gaining muscle mass so I won’t defend him there.
And yes, you need to adapt the WOD to your own needs and add and subtract stuff.
I don’t really disagree with your points all that much now that I think about it… some are a bit extreme.
I think Crossfit has MANY MANY strong points. I also think some of your criticisms are valid.
That is why I take what I learned from crossfit and from here and I combine them.
I’m surprised… this turned out to be an interesting discussion.
If you have any thoughts on how to attain maximum fitness (along with muscle mass) I’d love to hear it. I’ve thought about it myself and have been doing pretty well.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Zulu:
Well, you agree with me on some of my points, so at least we have some common ground.
Let’s begin with “(B)”. If the typical Ectomorph were to do the typical crossfit daily routine they would not build muscle! Can I prove this? No, however it stands to reason that anyone with a thin build who is forced to run 800 meter sprints with various reps of one or two exercises in between is probably not going to build muscle.
How many times have we heard from those who call themselves “hard gainers” on this very site? They are doing a three day per week routine, which actually makes sense for building muscle, and they still can’t gain! Do you think running around a track everyday will help these people? More importantly has crossfit ever proven that their regime builds muscle for anyone, much less Ectomorphs? Shouldn’t the onus of proof be upon those who are attempting to promote a certain model of training?
I know here at T-Nation Coaches are always pushed as to whom they have trained. How long certain things take to actually work etc. At crossfit there seems to be a suspension of reality. “Just swallow the pill and you will be fine trust us.” It seems that they are the ones lacking in the proof department.
By the way if you agree with me on (A) “It is not the optimal way to build muscle” then why do you think that crossfit has a good program for those who have a difficult time building muscle? Why wouldn’t this percentage of the population need “optimal methodologies?”
With that said I think that sort of routine would possibly work for someone who is considered an Endomorph. Again, I have no proof, but neither do they!
As far as “kipping” Pull-ups, you will do a great deal more using this method than if you did dead hang Pull-ups. Is it 100% more? Not sure, but I bet it’s close. I know that when I do Pull-ups if I am even allowed a little knee jerk I can get an additional 10 over and above what I can usually do. I can imagine with a full kip I could do quite a few more beyond that.
You really want to argue percentages? My original point was to classify what they consider a Pull-up in order to dispute a claim by a previous poster who stated that some women at crossfit could do 20 Pull-ups. 20 kipping Pull-ups are not 20 dead hang Pull-ups by any stretch of the imagination.
Let’s continue: I understand full well that crossfit is about “FITNESS.” Two points, first if they are about fitness then why does their “Coach” claim that people can build as much or more muscle than on a bodybuilding program? (Don’t make me get the quote) Secondly, what is the point of putting down bodybuilders? If your system is good then people will naturally gravitate to it. Why put down other forms of training? There are two ways to make yourself look good. The first is actually being better than your competition. The second is by trying to push your competition down so that you look better.
By the way, there are many, many great bodybuilding movements which get people in great shape, Squats, Chin-ups, Overhead Pressing, etc. It’s not just about working in isolation, is it? Therefore, why attack the entire genre? Seems narrow minded and quite small to me.
You stated: “About the whole free speech thing… free speech is good. This is irrelevant to whether or not crossfit works.” Actually, my original critique was more all encompassing of crossfit. Therefore, I included my opinion of their web site, which as I tried to point out is sub-par.
You stated: “You get more stiffled discussion but also higher quality (and you also get more conformity, which isn’t necessarily a good thing IMO–I agree with you).” Well, glad you agree. I don’t think “stifled discussion” is ever really a good thing, especially when it extends to those who disagree with their main theme. In other words we are not talking about stifling only trolls.
Furthermore, I think there is a higher quality of discussion on T-Nation (if we had to compare). Yes, there is also a lower level of discussion here as well. You have both ends of the spectrum, because of the freedom. But because it is a “free” environment you get more thought provoking discussion because people are not afraid to speak their mind and offer various alternatives to the subject matter.
I disagree with part of your final statement. I don’t think crossfit works “well.” I think for most people to actually get it to work “well” they would have to be the right body type and also change the pure day in and day out drudgery of the daily wod routine. Come on, we both know that most people are not going to keep that up every day through out the year without making drastic modifications.
It’s not “common sense” to encourage anyone to go full bore six days per week. There are many reasons for this, injury, mental burn out, lack of progress. It’s just not a good idea is it?
Functional movements are a fine idea. However, we are way past that with crossfit. Here is a quote from their “coach” he is bragging about how difficult their daily training is:
"For you research types the condition is “Rabdomyolysis”. It was first identified in the victims of crush injury during the WWII bombing raids of London. Now CrossFit.
That’s been our line all along. The workouts are tougher than men."
Yea, sure coach, I think it has been stated far more eloquently than I could by the many quality coaches on this site. It’s not how hard you are working, but the results that you obtain from doing what you do. Some would say working hard without working smart can be foolish!
I can design a workout that will leave you in a sweating heap zulu. Does that make me a good coach? Does it mean that it’s a good routine? I suppose it would depend on your goals, but either way it?s not difficult to design a gut wrenching routine. I think they are very, very confused!
Are you a member at crossfit? If so what would you do to improve the site? You don’t seem the type to have swallowed their pill.[/quote]
Zeb,
As to your remarks regarding the lack of athletes that coach Glassman has trained or who have used the crossfit methodolgy with success, his list is rather impressive. Bj Penn, UFC middleweight champion springs to mind. Eva Twardokens, olympic silver medalist (downhill skiing i believe), and in my opinion, most importantly crossfit is substantiated by the vast following it enjoys among the military and law enforcement community.
So if what you are saying is that Crossfit is not the best way to prepare for a bodybuilding show, then point taken and I completely agree. However, when it comes to a cross-range of fitness, or “not being great at one thing but being good at everything” Crossfit is one of the best programs around. Crossfit sacrifices a level of vanity for appreciable gains in performance, across many gamuts. And while your hypothetical hard gainer may not gain as much muscle doing 800m sprints, the converse of that is your standard bodybuilder who might collapse after a few trips around the track.
zulu:
So, you felt the sting of rejection when you put forth an alternative idea or two huh?
The fact that you are a “newbie” as you stated had a lot to do with making gains on crossfit.
You stated:
“Crossfit has a lot of proof behind it. Just check the WOD times posted. Some of these guys can run 10k in 38 minutes and deadlift 400lbs and do 30 pull-ups.”
zulu that is not “proof.” Yes, they use the few who are very able to push their point that all can do this. In fact, the few who are able to do what you claim are natural mesomorphics! They would gain under almost any plan. There is a group that the coach over there loves to tout as being super athletes, and alludes to the fact that his system created them. Hogwash!
For every guy who can deadlift 400lbs. perform 30 kipping pull-ups and run a 10-k in 30 minutes there are hundreds who have burned out, quit or they modify the plan so that they are able to stay with it-And when you modify it, you have changed it!
As you have stated: “And yes, you need to adapt the WOD to your own needs and add and subtract stuff.”
Why didn’t you simply do the workout of the day, day in and day out? I will tell you why: you are too smart for that! You recognized it for what it is and moved on. Good job!
There are plenty of great ideas on how to attain good cardio and also build muscle. I have found some of the best ideas right here on T-Nation!
Give me your stats if you don’t mind: Age, Ht. Wt. Diet, how long you have been training.
Good to talk to you,
Zeb
[quote]pgnCF wrote:
Zeb,
As to your remarks regarding the lack of athletes that coach Glassman has trained or who have used the crossfit methodolgy with success, his list is rather impressive. Bj Penn, UFC middleweight champion springs to mind. Eva Twardokens, olympic silver medalist (downhill skiing i believe), and in my opinion, most importantly crossfit is substantiated by the vast following it enjoys among the military and law enforcement community.
So if what you are saying is that Crossfit is not the best way to prepare for a bodybuilding show, then point taken and I completely agree. However, when it comes to a cross-range of fitness, or “not being great at one thing but being good at everything” Crossfit is one of the best programs around. Crossfit sacrifices a level of vanity for appreciable gains in performance, across many gamuts. And while your hypothetical hard gainer may not gain as much muscle doing 800m sprints, the converse of that is your standard bodybuilder who might collapse after a few trips around the track.[/quote]
You have actually proven my point! Not one of the people on this “impressive list” does crossfits wod of the day on a regular basis, I bet. However, each has taken what seems to work for them and indoctrinated it into their own training. We both know that BJ Penn does not follow the wod everyday right? You are not trying to claim that, I’m sure.
As for the Bodybuilder example, I agree with you completly. It was never my intention to defend Bodybuilding. My point was to inquire as to why crossfit felt it necessary to slam Bodybuilders and Bodybuilding at every opportunity. Isn’t it enough that they have such a superior system? 
They also have to tell us that their system can build as much (almost as much don’t remember the exact wording) muscle as any bodybuilding routine, which is a flat out fabrication!
The only way that “Crossfit is one of the best programs around” is if you take certain things out of it and modify it to fit your specific needs. Then it really isn’t crossfit anymore, but some hybrid that you create. Now what would we all say about a coach on T-Nation who put out a program that needed that sort of overhaul in order to help us perform at our peak?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I have stated countless times that CF does emphasize strength endurance and I think that’s a fine thing. We agree on this. The problem is they pretty much try to pass themselves off as the “holy grail” of fitness training, and that’s a bad thing!
As far as crossfit not being the wod, I think you are technically correct. However, when you have a web site and you promote one specific (always strength endurance from what I saw)workout each day at that web site, the affiliation is sort of strong don’t you think?
[/quote]
ZEB,
I hold CrossFit in regard because of these attributes of their program:
Attention to overall fitness (GPP rather than SPP).
Emphasis on the creatine phosphate and glycolytic pathways over the aerobic (e.g., heavy lifts and sprints); insistent emphasis on polystructural rather than monostructural cardio (e.g., circuits rather than jogging).
Use of compound, complex, technically demanding, functional whole-body movements.
Randomness of training stimulus.
Besides, there is pretty much no one else in the fitness world besides CrossFit who seems to believe that there is such a thing as ‘Physical fitness as such,’ and pursues it in an intelligent and effective manner. This sort of a notion is precisely what the modern world (and America in particular) is lacking - the idea that every human being (and not just bodybuilders and elite athletes) ought to pursue fitness.
As for the suggestion that CrossFit is overly sheltered… Good discussions can’t take place in the middle of a crowded street. T-Nation is ‘the locker room,’ and it’s the best one. CrossFit is a place for more professional and calmer discourse.
[quote]Ross Hunt wrote:
ZEB wrote:
I have stated countless times that CF does emphasize strength endurance and I think that’s a fine thing. We agree on this. The problem is they pretty much try to pass themselves off as the “holy grail” of fitness training, and that’s a bad thing!
As far as crossfit not being the wod, I think you are technically correct. However, when you have a web site and you promote one specific (always strength endurance from what I saw)workout each day at that web site, the affiliation is sort of strong don’t you think?
ZEB,
I hold CrossFit in regard because of these attributes of their program:
Attention to overall fitness (GPP rather than SPP).
Emphasis on the creatine phosphate and glycolytic pathways over the aerobic (e.g., heavy lifts and sprints); insistent emphasis on polystructural rather than monostructural cardio (e.g., circuits rather than jogging).
Use of compound, complex, technically demanding, functional whole-body movements.
Randomness of training stimulus.
Besides, there is pretty much no one else in the fitness world besides CrossFit who seems to believe that there is such a thing as ‘Physical fitness as such,’ and pursues it in an intelligent and effective manner. This sort of a notion is precisely what the modern world (and America in particular) is lacking - the idea that every human being (and not just bodybuilders and elite athletes) ought to pursue fitness.
As for the suggestion that CrossFit is overly sheltered… Good discussions can’t take place in the middle of a crowded street. T-Nation is ‘the locker room,’ and it’s the best one. CrossFit is a place for more professional and calmer discourse.[/quote]
Ross, You speak of “random training methods” as if crossfit created them. GPP, I think everyone is pretty much onto this as well (and has been for quite a while). Whole body movements, nothing new there. Lol okay, go do three quarter mile sprints and in between do deadlifts, (Yawn) yea great training info, very in depth You have offered up nothing new. I am not going to repeat myself, reread my other posts.
If you think “good discussions” are taking place over there…well then we simply disagree. The board monitors and the “coach” pretty much wipe out any dissent. Check this out right off the site:
"Welcome To The CrossFit Message Board
This board is moderated by an appointed council (the “appointed council” come on tell me your not smiling. Those in power act it and it gets obnoxious from what I hear) in order to maintain the high quality of conversation (controlled conversation as posts are removed all the time) that is the hallmark of the CrossFit community (the hallmark is CONTROL). We are not interested in forcing conformity or squelching disagreement (Actually, that is exactly what they do!). Polite behavior, however, is a requirement. Gratuitous bickering, personal attacks, slanderous statements, or incessant whining, will result in removal from the discussion (It’s good that they remove trolls but disagreement with a board member or the coach will get you booted as well from what I have heard). The individuals of the council (they mean the “MIGHTY COUNCIL”) will each act in the best interests of the Crossfit community, but this is not a democratic process (well this is the first line that we can agree on).
Upon further perusal I saw several threads that were wiped out or blacked out. Other threads ending with “THIS THREAD IS CLOSED” or “I WARNED YOU THAT’S IT NO MORE DISCUSSION.” As far as I’m concerned it’s bizzaro land over there.
But hey, like I said before, if you like it over there good for you! Peronally, I don’t think I’d like big brother peering over my shoulder with every post, especially when they think that they have created the “holy grail” for fitness.
Perhaps it just comes down to tastes. I think T-Nation is far superior. You referred to it as a “locker room”, I have to disagree. What locker room on earth has such information? What locker room on earth has the best strength coaches in the business? What locker room on earth has search engines that you can use? And all of this for free!
(By the way are you “Ross Hunt” on the crossfit message board? I was just over there reading there sanitized threads and saw a “Ross Hunt” naturally I assumed it was you. If it is you tell the folks at crossfit Zeb said hello but I’m not drinking the koolaide! Have a good one Ross")
back to the issue…
yes i’ve done these, i like it… kinda hard on the wrists though.
Zeb,
The specifics of Bj penn’s training routine are obviously outside of both of our knowledge. However, given that he endorses crossfit, as “his only training system” (taken from his website, and crossfit’s) I dont see how you conclude that he doesnt use the crossfit methodology as proscribed (which isnt necessarily the wod) It seems far more reasonable, given his endorsement, to conclude that I am correct in saying his conditioning is a result of that system, as oppossed to you arguing, without any proof, that he has somehow modified something or other.
Crossfit’s anti-bodybuilding stance is really not far devoid from your own. Zeb how many tricep kick-backs, hammer curls and leg extentions are in your workout? I take it from your commitment to chins (which btw are perhaps the staple exercise of crossfit) that its none too many. Crossfit disparages the very same bodybuilding exercises commonly attacked on this site. In fact, the basic compound movements (perhaps not including bench press—also one of your beliefs yes?) are staples of the crossfit routine. Moreover just b/c something is modified does not undermine its original utility. If i replace one of the exercises in TBT or substitute something in one of Waterbury’s program’s does that kill off the programs original purpose?
[quote]pgnCF wrote:
Zeb,
Crossfit's anti-bodybuilding stance is really not far devoid from your own. Zeb how many tricep kick-backs, hammer curls and leg extentions are in your workout? I take it from your commitment to chins (which btw are perhaps the staple exercise of crossfit) that its none too many. Crossfit disparages the very same bodybuilding exercises commonly attacked on this site. In fact, the basic compound movements (perhaps not including bench press---also one of your beliefs yes?) are staples of the crossfit routine. Moreover just b/c something is modified does not undermine its original utility. If i replace one of the exercises in TBT or substitute something in one of Waterbury's program's does that kill off the programs original purpose?[/quote]
Doing Lat Pulldowns instead of pullups because you’re not strong enough isn’t modifying the program the way most people have to modify a crossfit routine.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Chubs:
It’s working for you primarily because you have modified it. Good for you, for realizing how the wod as they put it out will lead to overtraining in most people.
Now…if you can only find a way to actually make their message board less of a place for crossfit worship…hmm [/quote]
The system was made to be modified. The guidelines are broad and adaptable to different people that may choose to try it out. But like supplements, visitors shouldn’t ignore all the reading before taking part in it because it promises “this” or “that”. Without reading more into it, then I believe injury and/or overtraining can occur.
I usually ignore the worship, to tell you the truth. When you live in a country, I think it’s called america, where worship is common. You can ignore it and find the marrow of whatever you are looking for. So what about us wolves who run with the T-Nation pack? Well we’re still running. I would just look for what is important over in their message boards and “learn” it. I’ll “kiss ass” once and a while to get some info out of them. I did get “busted” for changing my real name to a different name. It didn’t bother me that much to have my real name posted, but sometimes privacy is gold in this time and age.
Xen,
But what about doing barbell hack squats instead of dl’ing. Or cleans instead of snatch. Substitution is not necessarily picking a “lesser” exercise. And how is it exactly that most people modify a crossfit routine? Perhaps some people modify the wod. However, take a look at “what is crossfit” it says nothing about the wod being the culmination of crossfitery…yea thats not a word, i know. Crossfit, is simply the randomized pairing of metabolic (sprints, burpees etc), anaerobic (oly’s, big compound lifts) and gymnastics. How you make your own particular combos is your own business. For instance, the wod’s at crossfit hq are rarely the same ones posted on the web. Just my .02
just a question. those guys are fit and well conditioned all rounders. I am sure, to become that conditioned the aim is just that. not sport (you wouldn’t have time to train properly)
[quote]chubs108 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Chubs:
It’s working for you primarily because you have modified it. Good for you, for realizing how the wod as they put it out will lead to overtraining in most people.
Now…if you can only find a way to actually make their message board less of a place for crossfit worship…hmm
The system was made to be modified. The guidelines are broad and adaptable to different people that may choose to try it out. But like supplements, visitors shouldn’t ignore all the reading before taking part in it because it promises “this” or “that”. Without reading more into it, then I believe injury and/or overtraining can occur.
I usually ignore the worship, to tell you the truth. When you live in a country, I think it’s called america, where worship is common. You can ignore it and find the marrow of whatever you are looking for. So what about us wolves who run with the T-Nation pack? Well we’re still running. I would just look for what is important over in their message boards and “learn” it. I’ll “kiss ass” once and a while to get some info out of them. I did get “busted” for changing my real name to a different name. It didn’t bother me that much to have my real name posted, but sometimes privacy is gold in this time and age.[/quote]
Okay, then I’m making a system right now! My system is do multi-joint movements along with strong man events and body weight exercises. You can change anything you want about it! There that’s it!
No, wait I think you need something more behind it than that. And I think that’s where CF falls down. Some of what they do is fine, as I have stated. I just don’t get the idea of having a system, but not really a system. Here is the wod, but please modify it as we know it won’t work day in and day out for most people. Then why post it? Let’s say their “premise” is good, but their execution is horrific!
Ha ha Chubbs you got busted at crossfit! That’s funny stuff…I think they are adding a prerequisite: you have to kneel at your keyboard before you enter the site…lol
pgnCF:
(Hey does the “CF” in your name stand for anything in particular?
No one is claiming that substituting one movement for another denigrates the system. An occasional substitution might be needed with any system. I am claiming that if the typical trainee tried to do the wod of the day everyday as suggested (And why post it if it is not an important part of the system?) he would either lose muscle, burnout, get injured/sick etc.
I am claiming that any idiot can post a physically demanding routine. Crossfit does nothing unusual relative to sports science. I can set up a series of movements that will leave you in a sweating heap on the floor, and then brag about it as their coach does. Does that make me a leader in the field of sports physiology?
I am also claiming that they have made outlandish statements relative to the effectiveness of their system in building muscle (as effective, or more so than a bodybuilder?s routine for building muscle). Some on this very thread who frequent crossfit have agreed with me on this issue. They attempt to portray their system as being all things to all people. How many times have we spotted this technique before?
In addition to that I am also claiming that their site borders on the “cultish” (is that a word?). How many quality web sites demand that their “system” not be questioned? In reality that is exactly what they do! We are currently having a discussion on a T-Nation thread. Ross Hunt claimed that T-Nation was the “locker room” of sites, while crossfit was for “professional discourse.”
Try going on the crossfit site and claiming that any other site is better than that one! Your post will be removed faster than you can say “fight gone bad” (or any other of their creative phrases). They are not about open discourse, which is simply another troubling aspect of what they are about.
As to their “system” I’m not entirely sure they have one, at least not one you can nail down. Take any routine that has been introduced by the quality coaches at T-Nation, you know what the routine is for: It is a fat reducer, a muscle builder, a strength builder etc. It stands for something, perhaps one or two things. However, they make no claim that their routine can do everything for everyone, like CS does. Furthermore, the members on this site will push the Coach to be very specific relative to it?s effectiveness with in the confines of what it is developed for. It’s nice that you can question a coach…helps with good discussion.
You also have many philosophies regarding training on this site. This is needed as we know that everything works for a while, but nothing works for ever. That means that running around a track and lifting weights in between sprints is a great thing (depending on your goals)…for a while…
The “purists” those who think that their system is the only way, always seem to be wrong in the end, Mike Mentzer is a good example of that. Mentzer’s system might be okay for a change of pace. Would you want to do it day in and day out? Do you think you would progress with that? The wod is the same thing relative to it’s effectiveness. I’m sure it will work for a while (depending on who you are and your goals), but who in their right mind is going to keep that up every day? If you tell me that the wod is not crossfit then you are telling me that what they stand for and post each day is relatively useless. Mike Mentzer was not ?Heavy Duty? but he sure as heck promoted it and stood by it.
They have a rigid formula that they have introduced. Yes, you can claim that it’s varied because it mixes a few different elements. However, in reality it is just as rigid as the Mike Mentzer formula, or any other zealot?s teachings. It is based upon mixing short distance running (up to 800 meters from what I have seen) with full body movements. Why do you think there is something magical about that?
They have a few elements that they push, at the exclusion of others, for example, what if I decided to work exclusively with dumbbells on movements that they don’t seem to like.
If I did Incline Dumbbell Presses, and other dumbbell work which they might not promote, along with running one mile (as fast as possible) would I not get a great workout? According to crossfit these things do not advance fitness. Nutty!
Hey, this is actually more fun than I expected it to be! Debating the merits of crossfit has made me look even further into why I really don?t like that place. Perhaps with others it has made them want to try it out. It?s all good! It?s called free expression and it?s a wonderful thing. Just make sure that you don?t try it over at crossfit, you won?t last long enough to visit pukie?lol.