Asuming that I did this split:
Day 1 - Chest, Bi’s, Tri’s
Day 2 - Legs
Day 3 - Off
Day 4 - Delts, Back
Day 5 - Off
Day 6 repeat
Would I have any reason for concern as regards doing squats/DL’s every 6 days though? I found that they take up a lot of my recovery ability and slow down the upper body progress?
[quote]cueball wrote:
So the farther away from your BW your DL gets, the weaker you are? Or that he should be lifting weight CLOSER to his BW for more reps? Could you explain?
I know this was offered to the OP, but, I would be interested in seeing these standards and the requirements for them. And if you don’t mind, post them in the thread. I’m sure others will find them interesting as well.
[/quote]
Yes closer to BW with more reps. The fewer sets the better to him. 1 x 35 double BW would be the ‘lofty ideal’, but not the ‘practical reality.’ Now you may see the ‘trick’ to his ‘Physical Standards.’ The bar might be set too high, but if one gets half way there they should look ‘good.’
You see he saw total reps as the goal, not sets. Sets were another progression, and or something you added to your work days. He said sets are there to help a trainee hit their total rep goals. He called it ‘splitting up reps.’ ‘Weird shit’, I know…
Oh and he didn’t care how one hit the milestone of ABOUT 35 total reps, for 2x BW DL. He didn’t care which variation you used ( even Hack Squat, which he thought was a DL Variation ) either. You do 10 x 3, or 6 x 5, and it would be cool ( 30 total reps, close enough ). Or 7 x 5? 35 total reps on the money. 6 x 6? 36 total reps, that is fine ( really that was better to him ) too. 4 x 8, that is 32 total…you get the point…
However for DL, anything under 30 was failure, and the closer to 35 total reps, or even above that the better. He liked 10 x 5, for allot of shit.
But that was just the ‘Standard’. One was to move up and on from there. ( See 10 x5 ).
I realize his system may not be the most advanced ( he started training before the Bench was invented ), but I think if it is taken with a grain or two of salt it is very interesting.
Still he knew the stronger a person became the bigger they would get and his BW system has problems for some trainees whom he would not say are ‘weak,’ though they may not be able to perform 100 dead hang, touch the clavicle Pull Ups, or whatever. After all he himself at his heaviest was just over 500#s. He couldn’t do a 4x BW DL. I think that is another discussion though.
I will post these ‘Physical Standards’, for all to see soon. I need to find his training logs, and ‘Physical Theory’ note books.
I wanna make a shout out to CC and that 3-way he recommends for so many. I’m convinced if I had done that since the beginning, about 7-8 years ago, i’d be hyuuuge lol. Really fun, easy to progress on, and really versatile as far as # of workouts a week.
Anyway, carry on.
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
Asuming that I did this split:
Day 1 - Chest, Bi’s, Tri’s
Day 2 - Legs
Day 3 - Off
Day 4 - Delts, Back
Day 5 - Off
Day 6 repeat
Would I have any reason for concern as regards doing squats/DL’s every 6 days though? I found that they take up a lot of my recovery ability and slow down the upper body progress?[/quote]
First off, the frequency above is the “original” recommended frequency, but you can really go whenever you have time and feel like it.
That can look like:
Week 1 - feel great all around, found time to go 6 days a week
Day 1 - Chest, Bis, Tris
Day 2 - Legs
Day 3 - Delts, Back
Day 4 - off (no time today or want to recuperate a bit)
Day 5 - Chest, Bis, Tris
Day 6 - Legs
Day 7 - Delts, Back
Week 2 (little time this week, only 3 days)
Day 1 - off
Day 2 - Chest, Bis, Tris
Day 3 - off
Day 4 - Legs
Day 5 - off
Day 6 - Delts, Back
Day 7 - off
Week 3 (bit more time, 4 days this week)
Day 1 - Chest, Bis, Tris
Day 2 - Legs
Day 3 - off
Day 4 - off
Day 5 - Delts, Back
Day 6 - Chest, Bis, Tris
Day 7 - off
…
You just get in sessions whenever you can.
Ok?
As for Squats and DL, you have several options…
And when it comes to overlap:
You only do 1 overhead pressing exercise for delts, and that one is ramped, so if you were to do chest and tris the day after, it shouldn’t interfere much.
If doing DL on leg day, then don’t pick heavy BO rows for back day, but instead seated cable, Hammerstrength or Kroc rows…
Etc.
It’s a lot less complicated than it sounds.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
(trusty yates-split that many of my trainees and guys I’m helping out have fallen in love with)
-Chest, Bis, Tris
-Legs, Abs
-Delts, Back
[/quote]
To the OP:
I took myself from about 180 to 275 with a split like this. 2-3 exercises per body part, working up to max sets of 3, 6 or 8. Sure, I tried some other stuff along the way, but I always came back to old faithful.
I haven’t lifted a weight in about 3 years, I’m weighing about 225 with more stomach than I would like, and guess what? I’m using that exact split again. Results have been good for the whole 6 weeks that I have been back training.
Despite the fact that this thread could have easily turned into a giant clusterfuck, you have all the info that you need here. All you need to do is to apply it with controlled violence in the gym.
Good luck.
The more and more I’m looking at that 3 way split, the more I’m realising how brilliant it is!
At one point I was considering just training body parts as and when they recovered (e.g. arms recovered every other day, chest and upper back every 4-5days, legs every 5-6 days, lower back every 6-8 days etc)…but that was really complicated, but this 3 way split seems just right for that kind of frequency 
The great thing, like Cephalic_Carnage said is that you can work around it with off days etc (another thing I was converned about since my work shift is crappy and I train with my brother who also has a crappy work shift).
How many exercises per muscle group and sets/exercise would you recommend?
E.g.
Chest:
Bench press (6 sets ramping…my new favourite word now lol)
Incline Bench press "
Barbell curl "
Close grip Bench Press "
The amount of sets on the ramps depends on your daily strength levels etc… At least on the CT-style ramps.
On regular ramps, it depends on how many warm-ups you need and how you warm up.
For an example of the yates 3-way exercise selection, MeinHerzBrennt could perhaps post his…
The routine is very flexible, you could use a double rotation (esp. with regular ramping) or just do the same exercises every time (esp. with CT style ramps)…
What numbers are you putting up at the moment?
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
You just get in sessions whenever you can.
Ok?
As for Squats and DL, you have several options…
And when it comes to overlap:
You only do 1 overhead pressing exercise for delts, and that one is ramped, so if you were to do chest and tris the day after, it shouldn’t interfere much.
If doing DL on leg day, then don’t pick heavy BO rows for back day, but instead seated cable, Hammerstrength or Kroc rows…
Etc.
It’s a lot less complicated than it sounds. [/quote]
Listen to this shit OP. Split ‘DL’, and ‘Squat’ up in two Leg Work days as I have said, or spread the work even further apart by ‘cycling’, the two movements.
Yes even consider, leaving one or the other behind for some time! There are many whom have not done a Full Back Squat ( that is what you meant by ‘squat’? ) in a few years and they are looking good. Same goes for DL.
I think however, if you have extra energy on a given week, you might consider, doing some more Leg Work instead of, repeating ‘chest/tri/bi.’ day.
I still must stress that you should have Leg Work as the first, thing on the first Work Day.
But I digress, many advance with the rampant mid-week leg day…
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
… the idea of the sets preceding the final set is NOT to have that last set be done in a much weakened state, but to be in good shape for that set and do strong work on it.
So for example, let’s say you want to do somewhere around 25 total reps and you happen to like this number 7 that you’ve mentioned for reps.
Don’t do it as, for example, 10 (all that you can get with the weight), 7, and then oh no, I can’t get 7 again so I’m done for the day. Or for example 10, 9, 7.
Instead, figure “Well, either 21 or 28 is close to 25: I’ll go with 28” and then aim for 4 sets of 7. And if you can get more than 7 on the 4th set, all the better. But that is the one you are going all-out on. The others should not be death-efforts to complete.
You could also make those sets start out lighter and work up but that subject has been beaten to death and so I won’t touch it here
But the point is, you shouldn’t be going into the final set unnecessarily weakened because of having done maximal reps in the leading-in sets.[/quote]
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
If you’re looking for strength as a higher priority than development, look at reps and volumes such as – assuming you’re ramping and starting at 55% 1RM and going up 5% RM each set:
5 reps ramping up to 70%
4 reps ramping up to 75%
Triples ramping up to 80% OR do doubles and on reaching 80%, do up to 6 sets
Doubles ramping up to 85% and on reaching that, do up to 4 sets
You can cycle up through these percentages rather than sticking with the same percentage for a long period of time.
Don’t worry that you could have gotten more reps with these percentages. This is still properly challenging work if you drive every rep as hard as you can rather than simply lift them.
Or the old standby of 5x5 with as much weight as you can still do POWERFULLY on the last set. On increasing weight, drop to 4 reps for the first 4 sets, then aim for 5 on the last, then fill in towards the front. (For example, the next time would be 4,4,4,5,5; the time after that 4,4,5,5,5; etc though if you are sure you can “fill in” faster while still completing the final set forcefully then do so.[/quote]
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
Here’s an example of how it could go:
7, 6, 5, 5, 4. (all sets about 85% 1RM)
Here’s the same example including “warm ups”
8 @ 50%, 6 @ 50%, 6 @ 65%, 6 @ 75%. 4 @ 75%, work sets (7, 6, 5, 5, 4 @85%)[/quote]
Its_just_me, what would you say is the fundamental difference between what I wrote and what you describe?
This is the way i’ve been doing the Yates 3-way as far as exercise selection and sets, including warm ups.
Chest:
inc. smith:
135 x 12-15
135 10 (I usually repeat the 135 just to get one more light warm up in, plus make sure I have the bench in the right place)
185 x (no more than 5)
225 x 3ish
275 x 1
305 x AMAP
My last warm up is always a single to get used to a heavy weight.
Flat DB:
50 x 8 or so
110 x 10+ or however many I get
Not as many warmups here because my chest, tris, and shoulders are already warmed up.
Cable cross overs: 1, maybe 2 sets at around 15 reps to get a pump and flush some blood in there.
CGBP:
135 x 8 or so
225 x 3-5
workset: AMAP
You’ll see that my reps for my warmups are not set in stone. It’s all based on how I feel and how many I need that day. But there’s a clear trend of higher reps with the lightest weight working up to a single for the final warmup.
Pushdowns:
usually one warmup at 100lb or so then work set at about 160 x 20+
That’s it for my chest/tri. I stopped doing biceps with chest and tris and instead moved it to leg day.
Leg day looks something like this:
Alt. DB Curls: about 3 warm ups, ramping up starting at the 20’s perhaps. Then my working weight for as many as possible
DB Preachers: I usually just go into my working weight here, no warmups. If I was using the 75’s i’d probably warm up though lol
Pinwheels: one warmup with the 50’s then 75 x 10 or so
V-squats:
1pps x 8ish
2pps x 5ish
3pps x 3-4
4pps x 1
5pps + 25 x AMAP
Then i’d strip it down to 3plates + 25 or so and do a widow. I usually feel like blacking out around 15.
Leg press:
3pps x 5
5pps x 5
7pps x 2-3
9pps x 10
Very straightforward. At least 2 exercises per muscle, maybe 4 for something like back which i’m trying to bring up. Generally I look at it like 2 main exercises then 1 “finisher” like cable cross overs or leg extensions, cable laterals, etc. These are higher rep and used to flush as much blood in the muscle as possible.
Progression on these isn’t of the utmost importance like it is with the main movements, but obviously you should try to progress on them at some pace as the months go by.
[quote]MeinHerzBrennt wrote:
This is the way i’ve been doing the Yates 3-way as far as exercise selection and sets, including warm ups.
Chest:
inc. smith:
135 x 12-15
135 10 (I usually repeat the 135 just to get one more light warm up in, plus make sure I have the bench in the right place)
185 x (no more than 5)
225 x 3ish
275 x 1
305 x AMAP
My last warm up is always a single to get used to a heavy weight.
Flat DB:
50 x 8 or so
110 x 10+ or however many I get
Not as many warmups here because my chest, tris, and shoulders are already warmed up.
Cable cross overs: 1, maybe 2 sets at around 15 reps to get a pump and flush some blood in there.
CGBP:
135 x 8 or so
225 x 3-5
workset: AMAP
You’ll see that my reps for my warmups are not set in stone. It’s all based on how I feel and how many I need that day. But there’s a clear trend of higher reps with the lightest weight working up to a single for the final warmup.
Pushdowns:
usually one warmup at 100lb or so then work set at about 160 x 20+
That’s it for my chest/tri. I stopped doing biceps with chest and tris and instead moved it to leg day. [/quote] That’s actually a pretty good idea. [quote]
Leg day looks something like this:
Alt. DB Curls: about 3 warm ups, ramping up starting at the 20’s perhaps. Then my working weight for as many as possible
DB Preachers: I usually just go into my working weight here, no warmups. If I was using the 75’s i’d probably warm up though lol [/quote] You can strain your brachioradialis easily on these, I’d do a warm-up or two just to be on the safe side… [quote]
Pinwheels: one warmup with the 50’s then 75 x 10 or so
V-squats:
1pps x 8ish
2pps x 5ish
3pps x 3-4
4pps x 1
5pps + 25 x AMAP
Then i’d strip it down to 3plates + 25 or so and do a widow. I usually feel like blacking out around 15.
Leg press:
3pps x 5
5pps x 5
7pps x 2-3
9pps x 10
Very straightforward. At least 2 exercises per muscle, maybe 4 for something like back [/quote] How’s your delt/back day set up? Do you do hams there? Seeing as how you have 2 quad exercises on leg day (or is the leg press a sumo press?)[quote]which i’m trying to bring up. Generally I look at it like 2 main exercises then 1 “finisher” like cable cross overs or leg extensions, cable laterals, etc. These are higher rep and used to flush as much blood in the muscle as possible.
Progression on these isn’t of the utmost importance like it is with the main movements, but obviously you should try to progress on them at some pace as the months go by. [/quote]
Yeah, base program was 2 exercises per muscle-group, but only 3 total for legs (due to the widowmaker), though that can be modified to suit the individual lifter… That’s why I wanted you to post your selection here, almost everyone does a slightly modified version of the original template I gave them.
Oh, by the way MHB… You already decided to move biceps onto another day, well, I had similar thoughts and came up with (exercise selection is due to very little equipment and some stubborn wrists etc due to which I can’t do certain exercises…):
Chest, Tris, Quads
-Incline Bench (CT ramp in fives, but I stop once I feel delts and tris taking over… Then I drop the weight to 80 or so percent of the max working weight of that day and rep out, after a little rest)
-Flat DB (hey, they go up to 220 a piece… Nice… And no, I can’t do the 220’s lol) - CT ramp in eights
-EZ PJR’s, narrow grip, lying on the seat pad of the low pulley station, CT ramp in eights
-One-Arm Kickbacks (yes, well, my triceps are my best bodypart already… No smith machine etc available currently, and no spotters for board cgp’s, no power rack for Pin CGP… Plus chest needs to be brought up… Hence no tricep press, a first in many, many years for me) - CT ramp in eights…
Note: These are sort of a sword downward slashing motion, not some “keep elbow pinned to the side” isolation crap. I can generally use about 80 or so percent of my Alt. Curl weight on them, and they actually give me a rear delt workout lol
-One-Leg At A Time Leg Presses or Front Squats (back squats after chest would be a bad idea imo… Shoulder strain…
In fact, Back Squats seem to be responsible for my recent bout of posterior shoulder pain, but that’s gone now that I stopped doing them) - CT ramp in fives (though with the leg press I go in eights)
-Leg Extensions (yeah, we have no smith, not even a power rack, but a fucking leg ext. machine… The fuck?)
Ramp in tens…
Back, Low Back, Hams
-BO Rows… I hate them, but what can you do. Lack of equipment… Plus I’ve stalled on Krocs. I skip them if I don’t feel too good on a day… CT ramp in fives (but stop when emphasis shifts to arms)
-Mid-Grip Pulldowns… They work surprisingly well. Hmm. No rack for rack chins available, and wide-grip pulldowns don’t seem to hit my lats at all… CT ramp in eights
-Seated Cable Rows with a wide hammer handle… Too bad one can’t use that grip on regular BB rows… Much easier to maintain grip and feels better on the wrists/arms 2-3 ramped sets of 8-12…
-SLDL’s… Not feeling GM’s at the moment, and I prefer to do them in a rack… And I need to give my hips a break from sumo dl’s before I tear something CT ramp in eights
-Lying Leg Curls… Every gym has a lying leg curl machine, it seems. 2-3 ramped sets of 8-12
-EZ Bar Ab Rollouts - whatever
Delts, Traps, Bis
-Seated High Incline Shoulder Press (well, most would just call it a seated military or whatever, but I’m an honest German BB, sometimes DB (nicer groove… Head gets in the way on the BB variant lol… BB done from nose or chin or so to near lockout and pulling the bar apart and whatnot… CT ramp in fives
-Skip Laterals to lower chest height CT ramp in eights, might try fives but on the heavy set that seems awkward…
-DB Shrugs (I want those professor X traps) 3-4 sets ramped in 8-12 or so… Bit random, to be honest. Might switch to BB…
-Alt Curls… Regular grip these days instead of offset grip as I can’t break past a certain weight with the offset grip it seems CT ramp in fives, rest, 80 or so percent of today’s top set and then rep out (only If I feel good that day)
-One-Arm DB Preachers or Pinwheels depending on how I feel… CT ramp in eights
So anyway, there’s another example of how one could go about a 3-way, but of course the selections aren’t exactly perfect…
I used to do a different kind of ramping previously, just trying the CT variant out at the moment. Liking it so far, though I think anything lower than fives only works well with exercises you’ve mastered in terms of technique and setup and mind-muscle connection, as well as where you don’t stretch a muscle too much (i.e. PJR’s are not a good candidate for that)… Just my opinion though.
CC, my delt/back day looks something like this:
2 sets standing military, one 6-8 the other 10-12
1 set of SHIPS, around 6-8 or so
1 set of DB laterals
Back starts with either rack pulls or t-bar rows. Either way, two sets.
If I do the t-bars I might do yates rows after; if I do rack pulls on that day then I won’t do yates, as my low back isn’t the greatest (I need to see a chiro soon)
Then I might do pulldowns, one set for AMAP, and then finish with bent-over rope pulls like the justin harris vid.
CC, what are the CT ramps? Or rather, where can I learn more about them?
[quote]bugeishaAD wrote:
CC, what are the CT ramps? Or rather, where can I learn more about them?[/quote]
Was curious about that to. Yet I’m sure on every warm up set you’re using a set rep target? Then also aiming for that on your last working set? lol dunno. just guessing
I’m guessing what he means by CT ramps is where you don’t count sets, you do that certain rep-range (5, 8, whatever) starting with ~50% and ramping up from there until you can’t get 5 good reps.
[quote]bugeishaAD wrote:
CC, what are the CT ramps? Or rather, where can I learn more about them?[/quote]
Glad I’m not the only one who didn’t know what they were lol
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Its_just_me, what would you say is the fundamental difference between what I wrote and what you describe?[/quote]
Not much except with the work sets (plural) being max’s @85%…whereas the ramping that I’ve been told about on here only involves one (sometimes two - depending on exercise) max set. Am I right?
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
What was wrong with the “don’t be a pussy, use more volume” advice in that context? (Other than being incomplete, as it turns out that avoiding excessively draining reps proved to be also necessary advice.)
[/quote]
Nothing, except it was said in the wrong context (at the start). I don’t have a problem with increasing volume (except if the volume/intensity doesn’t allow recovery for me). The key point is what you mentioned (as agreed upon), i.e. that with higher intensity comes reduced volume, and with higher volume comes reduced intensity (something I will be doing via just one/two max sets/exercise). The key point being context of the advice.
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Its_just_me, what would you say is the fundamental difference between what I wrote and what you describe?
Not much except with the work sets (plural) being max’s @85%…whereas the ramping that I’ve been told about on here only involves one (sometimes two - depending on exercise) max set. Am I right?[/quote]
The (I suppose there are others, but the thing that strikes me as most important) fundamental difference is that in your above description, you are going into your final work set more exhausted due to doing more reps in the preceding sets at the same weight than is expected to be possible for the final set.
In your example you had:
8 @ 50%, 6 @ 50%, 6 @ 65%, 6 @ 75%. 4 @ 75%, work sets (7, 6, 5, 5, 4 @85%)
Now for the moment let’s not consider the sete below 85% (even though we should factor them in) and only look at the work at “85%.”
Let’s say you are going from experience and expect the above result.
So you are expecting to be able to get 4 reps and no more at the end, yet you’re doing 7 reps in the first set, 6 in the second, and so on.
This is leaving you in less-good shape than you should be for your final set.
In this instance, you expect you can perform 27 total reps at this weight over 5 sets.
The fundamental difference in approaches is that in what I was describing, and the more general approach from those who are more successful in gaining mass or strength, you would not push those early sets to the edge.
The number 27 wouldn’t generally be used because of it working out oddly. So I will change it to 25. Of course, a touch more weight could be used to equal out the difficulty.
The more general approach of those who have been quite successful in gaining mass or strength would be to budget out 25 reps as 5 sets of 5, not as starting out at 7 and then ending at 4 or something like that.
You only need one of the sets, the last one, to be max effort. The others are not supposed to be, or at least not via being for a greater number of reps at same weight. (In for example a 10x3 protocol, many of the latter sets might be max effort in the sense of a 4th rep having been impossible, but still those prior-to-the-last sets are not made harder via having more reps than expected for the last.)