Pre exhaust for the Hamstrings?

I believe you have a mistaken notion of mechanical tension. It relates to the force-velocity relationship. Basically, when you’re exerting max effort to keep the weight moving as you’re approaching failure, the bar is involuntarily slowing down until it eventually stops when you hit failure. This mechanical tension, or involuntary slowing, is indicative of maximum muscle fiber recruitment. This can’t be achieved without high intensity of effort. That’s why I was saying they were heavily intertwined with each other.

Also Dumbbell Leg curls rock!

NO i fully understand what it is. MY point being that a deadlift and a squat will illicit more intensity than say a good morning or a row. DESPITE achieving maximum muscular contraction on the latter. So no i did not misunderstand mechanical intention and no you’re not going to get away with trying to write up a whole mess like this thinking it will sway the public. The fact is the deadlift adds the most intensity of effort and it also gives you the most muscle hypertrophy.

A New Technique For Shoulders
by Robert Kennedy (1968)

I am going to introduce you to a new technique in bodybuilding. It’s for your shoulders. Do you want broader shoulders? Man . . . you want broader shoulders . . . we all do! Those delts can never be overdeveloped; arms can occasionally be overdeveloped, as can thighs and pecs, but at the time of this writing I don’t recall any weight man who has overdeveloped his delts. But we’re going to have a darn good try. My shoulders have always been under par, so I developed this principle, tried it out, and lo! It works!!! My shoulders are beginning to balloon out and after three weeks of constant progress they haven’t stopped yet. Pleased? I’m ecstatic.

Pressing After Lateral Raise

I want you to try my deltoid enlarging principle. I want you to give it a few weeks, or more if you can continue progress for a longer period.

I also want you to write in and let me know how you got on with this program.

From my experience in the past I have found that most bodybuilders have to give their shoulders a lot of time-consuming deltoid work. I say MOST bodybuilders because I do know one or two guys who have virtually reached maximum size on just three sets of eight presses, but they are certainly in the minority. I myself have always started my workouts with at least an hour’s pressing with barbells and dumbbells and enjoyed only moderate success as a result. I have used lateral raises also, but not in the same way as I am going to recommend you do in this new-found technique.

Before I explain it to you in detail I want to stress the importance of a protein supplement in the nutritional program of the modern bodybuilder. Whether you choose to buy special protein powder or just like to mix a few eggs with milk or milk powder, there is a definite place for added protein (usually to be taken between normal meals) in the bodybuilder’s diet.

Now, we’ve always been told that pressing is THE exercise for the shoulders, and one only has to look at a few competent Olympic lifters to realize that pressing does build thickness into the deltoids, but at the same time few bodybuilders can spend the hours at heavy pressing and other overhead movements that the lifter can. He has many other muscle areas to do justice to.

The trouble with the press as a shoulder builder is that a lot of the stress is thrown onto the triceps. The taking of a wider grip alleviates this to a certain extent but nevertheless it is not a pure deltoid exercise. The lateral raise is, though, and most progressive bodybuilders will include a portion of pressing, either in front or behind the neck, followed by a few sets of lateral raises. This sequence usually works well at first but progress comes to a standstill sooner or later. Thus it was through by endeavor to find an exercise combination to isolate the shoulder muscles that I stumbled on this new permutation.

Like most principles the actual exercises don’t vary, but the method of performance does.

The idea is merely to tire the deltoid cap by performing four or five sets of medium-heavy lateral raises. You will find that this will tend to pump up the shoulder muscles exclusively, but somehow most bodybuilders find that leverage movements alone are not conducive to substantial progress.

Now, instead of preceding the lighter lateral raise with some form of pressing as is the normal case, and usually brings good results, I am suggesting that some form of pressing FOLLOWS the laterals! The deltoids are already tired, and consequently when you start pressing you will find that the triceps can perform their part with ease, but those delts – they already have a pump, they’re dead beat from the laterals, so now they are virtually screaming with pain to keep up with the triceps. Fellas, I can’t explain the effect. Just try it. After you’ve used this program you’ll probably realize for the first time just what it’s like to have a giant pump in those delts. They’ll ache right through to the bone.

To recap, perform four or five sets of lateral raises with dumbbells. Tire your shoulders with this preliminary exercise. Then, without much of a rest perform four or five sets of pressing or pressing behind the neck. Yes, I know it’s simple, but then successful bodybuilding techniques usually are. Give it a try, and balloon out those delts.

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i hate what lateral raises do to my traps by growing them. I got really good at keeping the traps out of it via weight selection and angle strategy but still don’t want to risk growing the traps. Completely eliminating the medial delt training, and only hitting the front delts and the rear delts has actually given me solid shoulders. Not roid-tier capped side delts, but during a workout it shows.

So take this for what you may- anything you do that hits the chest is also hitting the front delts, so no front delt work may be even necessary if you’re pressing heavy enough. Also anything that hits the rear delts- also works the medial deltoids, so as long as the rear delts are sufficiently trained in a compound lift then you should be good.

Behind the neck press is a great exercise though, probably the only one worth doing for deltoids

So, we all have the same weak points in the resistance path? That is an absolutely ridiculous assumption. With Strive a person could vary the resistance curve.

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are you seriously asking if the tension curve for an exercise is different for everyone… this is seriously being asked.

here’s examples of tension curves.

the squat. you are strongest at the top and weakest in the middle and strong again at the bottom.

Now tell me if it is reasonable to say “oh no i know someone who is stronger in the middle at parallel and below parralell he is stronger than he is at the top”

this is called playing universal relativity games to beat around the bush and avoid being wrong. You want to play those games or you want to face the music! im telling you what you already know. it doesn’t matter how different this person is or that person is, the tension curves of an exercise are the same, and that is considering people’s differential leverages and sizes and strengths and weaknesses. Like a short person would have an easier time squatting the same weight that a tall person would have a difficult doing. But that is not the tension curves of the squat being different for them but their leverages being different to the tension curve.

I could be completely wrong, but I built a competitive physique regardless of how wrong I was.

I disagree. But that is just opinion.

I don’t know of any copyrights Jones had on his equipment, specifically the cam. Has anyone taken the task of building Nautilus machine now? Most copyrights are only good for 20 years, so, most likely, everyone could be putting cams in all their machines. Is there a manufacturer doing so now? I don’t know. I just haven’t seen a Nautilus machine in the last two decades.

Cybex made a pullover machine that looked like a Nautilus pullover machine, but the torque arm was constant (no a cam). Now I haven’t seen a pullover machine by any manufacturer. Does anyone make one today? I like the greater range of “pullover” motion that the Nautilus Pullover Machine provided.

What science supports that tension curves of exercises are the same for all persons? And why would you believe that Arthur Jones hit the correct tension curve for the machines he built?

You ramble on about your vast knowledge of the science of building muscle. I would like to see how your knowledge has translated to what your physique looks like. Have you competed in a bodybuilding contest? Did you get pictures? If not compete, do you keep pics that capture the progress you have made over the years?

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If everyone had the same tension curves, everyone would have the same weak spots. They don’t.

You can pump up exercises without going to failure, such as the 100 rep warmup. A bit of puffery written sixty years ago by someone unsure how it worked is pretty convincing though. That’ll be useful if a bully kicks sand into your face, you weigh 98 pounds, or if you require X-Ray specs or Sea Monkeys with smiling teeth.

But if pre-exhaustion is worth trying, it is in smaller muscles. For heavy exercises like deadlifts, if you have to use less weight because a major mover is exhausted, the benefit is reduced. And if recovery now takes longer, did you gain much? Again, whatever works for you. My delts blew up with overhead carries, Smith holds and presses.

I just want to clarify, the definition of intensity here is relativity to muscular failure-not % of 1RM. An exercise to failure is an exercise to failure. A squat or a deadlift is tougher systemically because it loads multiple muscle groups and taxes the central nervous system. But you’re not achieving more mechanical tension or somehow “more intensity” within a muscle. Is a deadlift or squat to failure “harder” than a back extension or leg extension? Sure, but they’re also more dangerous to take to complete failure, so most people don’t, so those exercises could even be considered less “intense” Since most won’t reach failure. The way I see it, maximum intensity and mechanical tension are heavily intertwined and I’m not even sure what you’re trying argue because mechanical tension is NOT possible without effort.

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CT on post fatigue. At 3:45 he starts talking about the differences in doing the isolation move before or after the big move.

He says iso first teaches you to recruit the muscle better, and use more of the isolated muscle in the compound move.

And iso second is better to really blast and fatigue the target muscle. But it doesn’t work as well to learn integrate the target muscle into the compound move.

He says it might he useful to use Pre Fatigue for a month first, to learn to recruit a lagging muscle better. Then Post Fatigue during the second month to really work the muscle hard with better activation.

That seems neat.

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CT is usually right. But also wise enough to emphasize these special techniques should be used sparingly.

My greatest concern with these internet exchanges of “best weight training strategies”, is that it is extremely different than those discussions face-to-face in the 1970’s, '80’s, and '90’s. If the person hadn’t made any progress in the gym, I wouldn’t waste a moment of my training time hearing him out. You want to get my attention, show me some impressive muscle or strength gains.

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Pre-exhaust is just another tool in the tool box

Results of pre exhaust.
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There are definitely some anonymous posters that would not even open their mouth in an in-person discussion because they might get laughed out of the building trying to make an argument with no physique to speak of. Some people here and on other boards just play the role of jacked, muscle-building guru on the internet.

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so you would take arnold’s advice on exercise? or you would take his buddy franco’s advice on how steroids didn’t do anything for his physique?

Obviously you would take steroid use into consideration and even genetics, but you don’t show up to the lifting convention and listen to the small dude. That’s like taking financial advice from a hobo.

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so you don’t think the message is correct if it comes from a small dude or a hobo, so you would take advice from our current president on how to be a good president because he is president?

If I deemed whoever the current President is to be a good President, then yes. That’s my point, you would seek advice from someone you deem successful and want to emulate or at very least, get an insight and understanding to what they did, so that you may try to implement some of those strategies and replicate that success. I don’t know what about this argument doesn’t make sense to you. My original comment above wasn’t necessarily about you, as I don’t know what you look like, but your response to it certainly gives me an idea.