This is really interesting. Doesn’t Siff cite a study to the effect that mimicking sporting motions–specifically, boxing–with weight is a bad idea? Wasn’t this supposed to be true even of light weights?
Also, why the submaximal eccentrics? Does this interfere less with speed than doing concentrics?
I’m not knocking the regimen; I just don’t understand the purpose of these aspects of it.[/quote]
This method (using slightly lighter and heavier than competition weights), was employed by Bondarchuck, arguably the greatest/most successfull throws coach ever.
Considering a striking athlete wears gloves, if you practiced with db’s that weighted as much of your gloves that would be sport specific, then you could use no gloves (kinda like overspeed training), and weights that are slightly heavier than the gloves (maybe 1-2#'s at most)
The key is that the wiehgts are not too heavy (so they dont disrupt sport form)
This is really interesting. Doesn’t Siff cite a study to the effect that mimicking sporting motions–specifically, boxing–with weight is a bad idea? Wasn’t this supposed to be true even of light weights?
Also, why the submaximal eccentrics? Does this interfere less with speed than doing concentrics?
I’m not knocking the regimen; I just don’t understand the purpose of these aspects of it.
This method (using slightly lighter and heavier than competition weights), was employed by Bondarchuck, arguably the greatest/most successfull throws coach ever.
Considering a striking athlete wears gloves, if you practiced with db’s that weighted as much of your gloves that would be sport specific, then you could use no gloves (kinda like overspeed training), and weights that are slightly heavier than the gloves (maybe 1-2#'s at most)
The key is that the wiehgts are not too heavy (so they dont disrupt sport form)[/quote]
This is interesting, and I’ve read some about it. Basically, for example that throwing an implement between 50% and 200% of the competition implement, and running grades of only +/- 6% maximum works, but when you go outside these ranges, you get a negative effect on sport carryover because contact time changes too much.
Sorry, been busy for a few days. No, I didn’t use the POSE technique, but it looks very similar to what I did with her…hmmm… looks like another book and DVD I will have to buy…crap.
She was a heel striker due to her overstriding on the frontside, but when we got her to initiate contact with the ground under her Center of Gravity, her calves were not used to the new stress. Therefore her heel would hit quite hard frankly, and she was fairly sore in her PF region… so we did a bunch of exercises, shortened her runs, but really got her to perfect this new stride, and kept up her capacity with pool runs.
With a little work, we got her to utilize quite a bit of reactivity, and her body position eventually became engrained and she claimed to be running faster, easier…
Who knows. I was just trying to get her away from the huge heel strike. I can hinestly say that I know very little about aerobically based sports… but, her stride looked painful, and as a former sprinter, I tended her slightly towards us…
The study that siff sites and throwing are two different things.
In training a shot put with different weights, you are training you body to accellerate an implement of different masses. However, throwing an implement will always be a resistance based activity. Boxing is not. Besides the fact that your thinking is off in that the resistance is applied in the total wrong direction, it is a REACTION sport, not a resistance sport, and training with weighted gloves will screw up the feedback loop between hands and nervous system. Basicly your brain will think your hands should be one place, your body will disagree.
This is only one example. Besides, citing one coach that had success while/in spite of certain methods does not show that something is correct. We have all seen examples of this.
Thanks for the replies re. the weighted boxing training.
I’d be a total fool to deny that this kind of training works for throwing, since throwers from the international to the high school level seem to use it with success.
But I do wonder about how it works for boxing. Boxing’s similarity to speed-strength (remarked on earlier) suggests to me that just as running with weight messes up stride, so punching with weight would mess up rhythym. But at this point I’m not speaking from any experience. Punching with bands seems like it make more sense…
[quote]lorddunsmore wrote:
tom63 wrote:
Most young athletes just need to get stronger. Thy’re just palin to weak. i wouldn’t worry about explosiveness much, just getting bigger and stronger.
But there would be nothing wrong with including cleans.
Think of it this way, how many high school football players could squat 315? Or deadlift the same when they started? They need to get bigger and stronger and not worry about box squats on de day with 135 pounds. Plain old sets and reps will work.
And there’s nothing wrong with an exercise that hits the back as hard as cleans.
I tend to agree with tom63 that while power cleans are a great upper body builder, doing the basics to develop strength will develop explosiveness in your sport, if you practice your basic skill sets. I played HS football and did throwing events in HS and college. I lifted using Olympic lifts, squats and deadlifts. In hindsight, I should have used more volume and more pressing and less O lifts. O lifts are great for developing the back or O competition, but to get big, strong and explosive you need to do basic compound exercises and practice your skill sets.
[/quote]
Of course, I’m talking aboput beginners in the grade 9-10 range. most of these kids couldn’t nbench 200, and if they could they couldn’t desadlift or squat 200. Then you need to get stronger. Once you have enough basic strength, then other components of spedd/strength and so on can be trained.
I’ll use myself as an example. I’m 42 and my hands have gotten quicker over the years. My explosiveness has gotten better. Most of the increases have come after reaching a certain strength level and training more dynamically.
Debating about using O-lifts vs. powerlifts, or even just cleans it kind of a moot point. Successful programs have been developed and used successfully with kids to elite athletes centered around many different philosophies.
I think that one of the prime reasons that a particular method is successful is not because of the exercises employed, per se, but that the coach knows his own program, can teach his own exercises well, and knows how they integrate into his program. If a coach can teach the olympic lifts, he should use them. If he can’t, he shouldn’t. The same goes for any training method. The bottom line is: the more tools you have in your box, the cooler stuff you can build.
[quote]Ross Hunt wrote:
Thanks for the replies re. the weighted boxing training.
I’d be a total fool to deny that this kind of training works for throwing, since throwers from the international to the high school level seem to use it with success.
But I do wonder about how it works for boxing. Boxing’s similarity to speed-strength (remarked on earlier) suggests to me that just as running with weight messes up stride, so punching with weight would mess up rhythym. But at this point I’m not speaking from any experience. Punching with bands seems like it make more sense…[/quote]
not citing any science or research, but just from experience, weighted gloves are usefull, but not for developing punching speed or power.
our team uses competition wieght gloves for most of our training, but about half of our sparring is done using 16 oz gloves.
the main benefit being fatigue. the arm tires alot faster, when we actually compete weve built up the strength and stamina not to falter or lose work rate at the end of rounds.
perhaps theres some negative effects, but its a low enough percentage of our training (10-15% of time punching) that i imagine they would be minimal.
not citing any science or research, but just from experience, weighted gloves are usefull, but not for developing punching speed or power.
our team uses competition wieght gloves for most of our training, but about half of our sparring is done using 16 oz gloves.
the main benefit being fatigue. the arm tires alot faster, when we actually compete weve built up the strength and stamina not to falter or lose work rate at the end of rounds.
perhaps theres some negative effects, but its a low enough percentage of our training (10-15% of time punching) that i imagine they would be minimal. [/quote]
Understandable, but I feel your time would be better spent building stamina other ways.
I would decrease the amount of time spent training this way as competition neared. This is becuase at this point, you need to focus less on physical development and more on fine tuning technique.
You may not notice the effects, or it may add up. The purpose of my post was to demonstrate that you can not compare a means of training for a heavy throwing athlete with that of a boxer. The rate of force development is FAR to dissimilar.
This difference is even apparent in the training of high level shotputters and javelin throwers. Elite level shotputters will spend much more time in the weight room than javelin throwers because the heavier implement has a high correlation between maximal strength and implement velocity at release, while the correlation is significantly less with a lighter implement (javelin, boxing gloves).
“People are starting to recognize that running (jogging, sprinting) on hard surfaces creates aggravated knees, hips, and lower backs because of impact forces. Power Cleans even when done properly have much higher impact forces than sprinting and jogging. The forces are imparted on the muscles, ligaments, tendons, and bones.”
Take a closer look at the power clean. Done properly, the olympic lifts have MUCH less forces impacting the body.
Look at the end stage of the power clean. The barbell has halted its upward movement, and at that moment, the barbell is racked on the shoulders. The force on the body is minimal, little much more than the actual weight of the barbell.
As for sprinting and jogging… the forces the athlete experiences are several times their bodyweight. Same thing for jumping, and gymnastic floor routines. It is difficult to argue that olympic style lifts are any more dangerous than the aforementioned activities. Note the low rate of injuries amongst olympic weightlifters.
Hope this makes sense.
“But I do wonder about how it works for boxing. Boxing’s similarity to speed-strength (remarked on earlier) suggests to me that just as running with weight messes up stride, so punching with weight would mess up rhythym. But at this point I’m not speaking from any experience. Punching with bands seems like it make more sense…”
The problem with heavy gloves is that it exerts a downward force vector whereas you should be punching horizontally. As well, you are not releasing the load, therefore you are spending too much time decelerating… instead of accelerating, which should be your emphasis.