Power Clean Discussion

Training Powerlifting
101

Unfortunately it isn’t that simple. Which is why slow guys who run 5.4 forties, but squat 500 will never make gains from HIT or 99% of CSCS designed programs.

Tell you what Keyser, line up 20 guys who you know to be very strong, and have them run. I don’t want you to watch anything except their heals. See who has a huge heal dip when he runs, and who doesn’t.

Now, since they are strong, we know that it isn’t because they have weak calves. It happens because their muscles don’t know how to instantaneously absorb the force, instantaneously lock up. You see, when you lift, you are actually training a recruitment pattern, and a recruitment rate… so slow, heavy eccentrics affect your CNS very differently than do fast explosive movements. A slow eccentric RFD (rate of force development) sucks for an athlete in a strength-speed or speed-strength sport… period.

It isn’t all muscles and bones and tendons and ligaments, you see, some of us have brains and a CNS… do you?

Back to the discussion at hand: All of athleticism has to do with force absorption, stabilization, and then force display… at amazing rates (rfd). The basis for all of this force talk nonsense is absolute strength, and tendon preparedness… But, after that, all of this potential must be moved way down the force curve for it to viable on the field…

This is why a powerlifter does not punch as hard as a boxer. The powerlifter is trained to build tension and display this tension over the duration of the lift…slower recruitment, slower release. The boxer trains his CNS to instantly recruit amazing force, and then just as quickly shut it down… so not only does the peak force created max out higher, but the boxer can also throw 3 punches in the time a powerlifter throws one: on,off,on,off,on,off… big guy is bleeding.

But, what the boxer cannot do is to maintain his tension over the course of a bench press… different recruitment ability. So, the boxer only benches 315, while the powerlifter benches 600. The powerlifter has honed his CNS to his sport, the boxer to his…

Now, think about the legs in the same manner…hmmmm.

The funny thing is, many, probably most guys with the same certification as me certification would cry out: get him stronger!!! But, if the powerlifter benched 700 would he be a better puncher? Where does the ignorance end? The strong guy needs to lessen his explosive strength defecit by doing RFD drills. Hell if he did all explosive drills for a year and lost 100 pounds on his bench, he would probably punch harder…way harder.

This is where exercises that stress RFD, force absorption, stabilization, and force display all come into play. Because some people naturally have no deficit when it comes to displaying newfound strength in the form of power production (rate dominant athletes), but some have huge potentials, but lack the proficiency (strength dominant athletes).

Now, if all you ever meet are rate dominant athletes, then you must be Bobby Bowden, because that is all he recruits. He knows where the current state of S&C lies, and that is: Get them stronger!!! So he recruits the rate dominant kids…good for him.

As for your injuries, you probably have gait issues, as do most people who, when running experience pain. I train an elite level marathoner, who battled sever IT Band issues her whole career. Low and behold she was a heel striker… hmm…can you say absorbing force with your bone structure… yummy. We fixed that with a progression of drills, she gained 3/4" in her calves in 3 months (note that she was a Big Ten track and cross country girl, not some untrained test subject) due to her new foot strike, and the pain subsided… miracle… LOL. Maybe just not ignorance. Maybe just sound coaching. Were you getting that?

Finally Keyser, rude is a term that others label you with, not a term you give to yourself. You were rude, thus you are rude. You cannot exclame afterwards: I am not rude. You must alter your actions to get the label removed…

Thinking that improving athleticism lies in the muscles, and not in the mechanism that controls the muscles (CNS)… silly at best. That type of ‘thinking’ may earn you another label… since even your beloved strength is more of a neural factor than anything else… which is why an elite 105 pound gymanst is stronger than most T-Mag readers…

Good luck to you Keyser. I will be pleased when you realize there is far more than Flex Magazine and HIT tell you there is…

Jumanji
CSCS

102

Keyzer, you repeated your statement that olympic lifting was just throwing and catching a weight. But never answered my question:

Are you skilled in the Oly lifts?

I have another question:

What do you think is responsible for the quick contractions that create the momentum during olympic lifts?

103

[quote]Keyzer Soze1 wrote:
The negative on cleans is not so much whether they actually contribute to explosiveness but what damage they do to the body in the long run. [/quote]

One problem I see with people doing power cleans is that they don’t learn how to do a full clean (aka squat clean). They only learn to catch the weight in a power clean stance and when the weight gets heavier and they are supposed to squat a bit lower to rack the weight, they don’t have the strength in those positions. Also, they have become accustomed to catching cleans and stopping/holding that position instead of riding the weight down. The riding down of heavy cleans greatly reduces stress.

The thing about a properly done power clean is that after racking the bar, you don’t have to grind a front squat up in order to stand up straight. After racking it, the bar will bounce up. If this doesn’t happen, the lifter is probably trying to be credited with a power clean when they actually should have squatted a bit lower under the bar to rack it, then rode it down to a full squat clean.

Check out this video.

http://s45.yousendit.com/d.aspx?
id=08NP2LPP6Z32825QCB3CDBER0G

When he starts doing cleans notice how after the explosive 2nd pull, he quickly racks the bar across his clavicles with no crashing down of the weight on him. He doesn’t try to stop and hold the position after racking the weight. He rides it down to a full squat and then powers up to the standing position. Does this look particularly stressful?

Too many people don’t know what they are doing with cleans and make them out to be dangerous lifts.

104

2005 World Championships Vault Finals - Jivan from Romania

I would like to broaden the range of this discussion beyond the utility of power cleans in general. First, I believe that we are all in agreement that limit strength is a fundamental necessity for athletic excellence.

However, in my experience, increasing limit strength is not, in and of itself, enough to adequetely prepare the body for maximal performance; except perhaps in sports in which a relatively long term duration of effort is of no consequence (i.e. powerlifting). Most athletics however, as well as the world in general, take place within a ballistic environment and, to operate at maximum efficiency within that environment, the body needs to be able to handle rapid accelerations and decelerations of force as well as force impacts and rebounds. Whether this ability is achieved through plyometric gymnastics elements, rebounding track & field exercises, the 'catch" of a power clean, the bottom of a squat snatch or depth jumps etc. is the personal preference of the coach and/or athlete. Nevertheless it is essential that this training component be addressed.

To my mind the most common error with implementing this type of training, regardless of the specific training avenue pursued, is impatience. Care must be taken to allow the joints and connective tissues to gradually acclimate to the new training parameters being placed upon them. This adaptation is of biological necessity measured in months rather than weeks. In a seasonal school sport, there is often simply not enough time for the necessary adaptations to safely occur.

For example, in my judgement this is why the one young man began to experience joint issues when training the olympic lifts as a high school football player. The danger was not that he had been exposed to ballistic element training (in this case Olympic Lifting) but that he, or more likely his coach, had attempted to train these new elements too hard too soon and had exceeded his joints’ ability to sufficiently adapt to the training load being placed upon them. Had the seasonal schedule allowed him to begin and maintain a more gradual training approach with implementing this ballistic training, the end results may well have been dramatically different.

Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=512003

105

Coach~

It was your sport that has helped to guide so much of my training philosophy. I appreciate you chiming in…

When I was in HS, the second most powerful person in our school was a gymnast who few felt was a very good athlete… this was because he didn’t play FB, etc. But, he was 5’8" and could dunk with ease. I also dated a preperatory elite level gymnast when I was younger. She was amazingly powerful (obviously).

Their acts of landing over and over again is what drove me to wonder about rate specific force absorption leading to power display…

I am always amazed at the level of power generated and absorbed by these amazing athletes.

Thanks Coach.

JR

106

[quote]Coach Sommer wrote:
2005 World Championships Vault Finals - Jivan from Romania

I would like to broaden the range of this discussion beyond the utility of power cleans in general. First, I believe that we are all in agreement that limit strength is a fundamental necessity for athletic excellence.

However, in my experience, increasing limit strength is not, in and of itself, enough to adequetely prepare the body for maximal performance; except perhaps in sports in which a relatively long term duration of effort is of no consequence (i.e. powerlifting). Most athletics however, as well as the world in general, take place within a ballistic environment and, to operate at maximum efficiency within that environment, the body needs to be able to handle rapid accelerations and decelerations of force as well as force impacts and rebounds. Whether this ability is achieved through plyometric gymnastics elements, rebounding track & field exercises, the 'catch" of a power clean, the bottom of a squat snatch or depth jumps etc. is the personal preference of the coach and/or athlete. Nevertheless it is essential that this training component be addressed.

To my mind the most common error with implementing this type of training, regardless of the specific training avenue pursued, is impatience. Care must be taken to allow the joints and connective tissues to gradually acclimate to the new training parameters being placed upon them. This adaptation is of biological necessity measured in months rather than weeks. In a seasonal school sport, there is often simply not enough time for the necessary adaptations to safely occur.

For example, in my judgement this is why the one young man began to experience joint issues when training the olympic lifts as a high school football player. The danger was not that he had been exposed to ballistic element training (in this case Olympic Lifting) but that he, or more likely his coach, had attempted to train these new elements too hard too soon and had exceeded his joints’ ability to sufficiently adapt to the training load being placed upon them. Had the seasonal schedule allowed him to begin and maintain a more gradual training approach with implementing this ballistic training, the end results may well have been dramatically different.

Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=512003[/quote]

Well put.

107

[quote]Jumanji wrote:
The funny thing is, many, probably most guys with the same certification as me certification would cry out: get him stronger!!! But, if the powerlifter benched 700 would he be a better puncher? Where does the ignorance end? The strong guy needs to lessen his explosive strength defecit by doing RFD drills. Hell if he did all explosive drills for a year and lost 100 pounds on his bench, he would probably punch harder…way harder. [/quote]

I would think (hope) that at some point s&c coaches do recognize that an “optimal” level of strength has been achieved. I would think that some kind of DE work would be preferred for a slow strong boxer. When you say RFD drills, what would this encompass? Would cleans really get your punch faster? Or are you talking more about dropping into a pushup off boxes and ballistic pushups?

Are you suggesting that the state of s&c drives the recruitment? I really have to disagree. If Bobby Bowden felt that he could do better by recruiting a different type of athlete and getting a new s&c coach, FSU’s current s&c coach would be out on his ass so fast…

cool story about the marathoner.

108

[quote]Jumanji wrote:
Unfortunately it isn’t that simple. Which is why slow guys who run 5.4 forties, but squat 500 will never make gains from HIT or 99% of CSCS designed programs.[/quote]

But they would and do make gains. Maybe not speed gains, or gains in explosiveness, but is the weight room really the best place to train those aspects?[quote]

This is why a powerlifter does not punch as hard as a boxer. The powerlifter is trained to build tension and display this tension over the duration of the lift…slower recruitment, slower release. The boxer trains his CNS to instantly recruit amazing force, and then just as quickly shut it down… so not only does the peak force created max out higher, but the boxer can also throw 3 punches in the time a powerlifter throws one: on,off,on,off,on,off… big guy is bleeding.[/quote]

That’s not the only reason. I agree with your basic premise, but maybe boxing is a bad example. A boxer knows HOW to punch. Mechanics has just as much to do with it. Boxers do train to develop their reaction/response time, but I’m not so sure they train to increase RFD specifically, other than working on technique. Boxing trainers have long been reluctant to deviate from the methods used in the past, so many still don’t incorporate traditional S&C routines in their programs, yet they still hit hard. If you think about it, any punching training a boxer does is with ZERO resistence, until impact is made.[quote]

The funny thing is, many, probably most guys with the same certification as me certification would cry out: get him stronger!!! But, if the powerlifter benched 700 would he be a better puncher? Where does the ignorance end? The strong guy needs to lessen his explosive strength defecit by doing RFD drills. Hell if he did all explosive drills for a year and lost 100 pounds on his bench, he would probably punch harder…way harder.[/quote]

Again, boxing analogy not withstanding, I think you make a great point here. There is entirely too much emphasis on absolute strength in modern S&C. It’s more like STRENGTH & conditioning.[quote]

As for your injuries, you probably have gait issues, as do most people who, when running experience pain. I train an elite level marathoner, who battled sever IT Band issues her whole career. Low and behold she was a heel striker… hmm…can you say absorbing force with your bone structure… yummy. We fixed that with a progression of drills, she gained 3/4" in her calves in 3 months (note that she was a Big Ten track and cross country girl, not some untrained test subject) due to her new foot strike, and the pain subsided… miracle… LOL. Maybe just not ignorance. Maybe just sound coaching. Were you getting that?[/quote]

Interesting. Did you change her gait to more of a POSE style?[quote]

Thinking that improving athleticism lies in the muscles, and not in the mechanism that controls the muscles (CNS)… silly at best. That type of ‘thinking’ may earn you another label… since even your beloved strength is more of a neural factor than anything else… which is why an elite 105 pound gymanst is stronger than most T-Mag readers…[/quote]

That might be a stretch, depending on how you measure strength, but good point. It’s all about RFD and relative strength in the vast majority of athletic pursuits. Even though I personally believe that HIT is a valid approach to strength training in sport, from the stand point of working as efficiently as possible in the weigth room, so that other aspects can be developed as outside the weight room.

Thanks for the post.

Mojo

109

MOJO regarding the boxer

youre right technique is important however, when analyzing the throwing of an unweighted punch we discover that it is a true speed strength activity and by definition is training the CNS rate ability that jumanji is talking about.

To grasp what J is saying you need to look at the scope of training.

Shadow boxing, speed bag, focus mitts, etc all develop specific speed strength and rate ability. heavy bag is a speed strength movement with a magnitude component, as you must develop a TON fo force in a short amount of time.

hope this helps clear up Jumanji’s post about the boxers training and how it falls in line.

110

here is a post by Tom Myslinski from elitefts

The punch is characteristically very similiar to other movements (such as benching, throwing a shot, baseball, fencing prick, etc.), but what make it different is that is an unloaded movement. Thus, tension has to generated by the body, surprisingly, not in a rapid manner, but displayed at brief intervals using intense muscular contractions. These intrinsic properties categorize the punch as a true speed-strength movement, which incidently lies between 0-20% of one maximum.

Since maximal strength (80-100%) and speed-strength are not correlated (different neurological regimes), max strength doesn’t effect initial muscular tension or max force when the external resistance is low. Speed-strength thus correlates highly with starting strength (20-40%). Thus, starting-strength which is displayed isometrically against an external resistance, is displayed dynamically in an unloaded movement, but barely (100-500 ms of conscious initiation).

I recommend:

1- Training for relative body strength, you don’t need hypertrophy. The success of your other regimes depend upon this.

2- Train the appropriate energy systems. Shift that lactate curve to the right (speed-endurance).

3- Train in a relaxed, but heightened state. This will increase your reactionary times as well as your auogenic inhibition (eliminate co-contraction).

4- Train through incorporating different regimes. Use extreme isometrics, SUB-maximal eccentrics, starting strength (20-40%), and maximal speed (0-20%). For example, for starting strength, use suspended chain bench presses with 20-40% of your max for time. For maximal speed, utilize 1-5# DB’s, weighted gloves, or mini-bands, in various positions.

5- Continue your DE day. This is acceleration strength (40-60%). Together maximal speed + starting strength + acceleration strength + relative strength = explosive strength.

And remember, your punching success depends upon your speed of execution. In order to be fast, you must train fast"
Tom Myslinski

111

Thank you squattin. I hope most everyone caught the part about maximum strength and speed-strength being different neuromuscular regimes…

Most of the Flex crowd don’t get this…

Great addition.

J

112

What a great thread. I’m taking notes. Lots of stuff is covered here that I know little about, even after reading Supertraining & Zatsiorsky (maybe I didn’t read carefully enough, LoL).

Question:

(1) Can someone explain “heel drop” that Jumanji mentioned re: running & force absorbtion?

(2) Specifically, how would one go about increasing their ability to absorb force. The squat catch portion of the powerclean has been mentioned as have reactive type squats, etc. Anything else?

(3) What if you’re just an average guy who’s weak in the squat? Better to just keep banging away at heavy sets of 3, or would implementing some kind of reactive type stuff help?

113

[quote]squattin600 wrote:
here is a post by Tom Myslinski from elitefts…

…I recommend:

…4- Train through incorporating different regimes. Use extreme isometrics, SUB-maximal eccentrics, starting strength (20-40%), and maximal speed (0-20%). For example, for starting strength, use suspended chain bench presses with 20-40% of your max for time. For maximal speed, utilize 1-5# DB’s, weighted gloves, or mini-bands, in various positions.

[/quote]

This is really interesting. Doesn’t Siff cite a study to the effect that mimicking sporting motions–specifically, boxing–with weight is a bad idea? Wasn’t this supposed to be true even of light weights?

Also, why the submaximal eccentrics? Does this interfere less with speed than doing concentrics?

I’m not knocking the regimen; I just don’t understand the purpose of these aspects of it.

114

The calves absorb and redirect the ground impact forces when you run. When the heel collapses then energy is lost.

reactive and absorption squats
Altitude drops, etc…

Strength builds a foundation. You don;t need to be a competitive pler though

[quote]Protobuilder wrote:
What a great thread. I’m taking notes. Lots of stuff is covered here that I know little about, even after reading Supertraining & Zatsiorsky (maybe I didn’t read carefully enough, LoL).

Question:

(1) Can someone explain “heel drop” that Jumanji mentioned re: running & force absorbtion?

(2) Specifically, how would one go about increasing their ability to absorb force. The squat catch portion of the powerclean has been mentioned as have reactive type squats, etc. Anything else?

(3) What if you’re just an average guy who’s weak in the squat? Better to just keep banging away at heavy sets of 3, or would implementing some kind of reactive type stuff help?

[/quote]

115

It’s a good point that raising a kids ol’s by improving a kid’s form in the olympic lifts will not improve his skills.

As for full lifts, I can’t think of a situation where a ballplayer ever has his joint angels anywhere close to a full olympic squat position.

Anyway, here’s what I’d say. I have lifted and watched about 200 highschool football players-not a lot, but the best kids always usually come to me eventually for advice.

I have never known a kid at the highschool level who wouldn’t have improved his ability by getting stronger in the parallel squat. I rarely see a parallel squat. When I hear a kid saying “the coach is making us go low in our squats this year” I usually go and look, and low is still bottom of the ass parallel to tops of the knees. That’s what they consider “going low this year.”

Kids get focused on the numbers, squat numbers go up, but squats become more and more shallow. Coaches don’t care because they just figure if the kid is working out, they will be better in the long run.

I have never seen a highschool ballplayer-or kid at all-who could squat 405 deep and couldn’t walk over and clean a decent weight even if they had never done cleans in their lives.

Most of the cleans I see are no good-upper body strength moves.

The kids who do cleans well would build more power by doing squats or pulls with bands included. I would also rather jsut give a kid a 135 pound bar and tell them to throw it backwards over their head-if they could do it safely. The clean confuses most kids on form even with training. Tell them to jump with the bar, and they don’t get confused.

Most kids have supporting muscles of the shoulder girdle and abs that are too weak to let them challenge their hips and legs with cleans anyway.

Full cleans ARE good because they help kids maintain a natural level of dynamic flexibility as they get stronger. Overhead squats may be better though, and I am pretty sure full snatches are better.

In the weight room:

  1. Real, parallel squats including bands.

  2. Mid height clean pulls from about knee level to about 1/2 to 3/4 of standing rack position (with bands). The trainer should change the band tension, and the height from and to each workout to keep the kids from getting fixated on numbers.

  3. Full squat snatches to maintain dynamic flexibility. You can muscle up a clean and have bad posture. You can’t muscle up a snatch or hold the weight with bad posture.

116

[quote]Ross Hunt wrote:
squattin600 wrote:
here is a post by Tom Myslinski from elitefts…

…I recommend:

…4- Train through incorporating different regimes. Use extreme isometrics, SUB-maximal eccentrics, starting strength (20-40%), and maximal speed (0-20%). For example, for starting strength, use suspended chain bench presses with 20-40% of your max for time. For maximal speed, utilize 1-5# DB’s, weighted gloves, or mini-bands, in various positions.

This is really interesting. Doesn’t Siff cite a study to the effect that mimicking sporting motions–specifically, boxing–with weight is a bad idea? Wasn’t this supposed to be true even of light weights?

Also, why the submaximal eccentrics? Does this interfere less with speed than doing concentrics?

I’m not knocking the regimen; I just don’t understand the purpose of these aspects of it.[/quote]

I don’t think there is much of a purpose. Mimicking sports movements with added weight is the last thing that should be done to improve performance. It throws off the muscular coordination required in the actual sport movement. All this speed-strength stuff is wonderful and all, but punching is first and foremost a muscular coordination/technique activity.

Jumanji,

You didn’t answer me regarding your marathoner. Did you introduce the POSE technique to alter her stride? Or, did you use something else? I’m curious because being a heel striker isn’t necessarily related to RFD, how do you correlate the two?

Thanks,

Mojo

117

Power cleans suck, I’d rather curl.

118

[quote]Ryu13 wrote:
Power cleans suck, I’d rather curl.[/quote]

You could always do cheat curls, aka reverse grip cleans.

119

[quote]Ryu13 wrote:
Power cleans suck, I’d rather curl.[/quote]

Admit it. You suck at olympic lifting and you gave up.

120

[quote]tom63 wrote:
Most young athletes just need to get stronger. Thy’re just palin to weak. i wouldn’t worry about explosiveness much, just getting bigger and stronger.

But there would be nothing wrong with including cleans.

Think of it this way, how many high school football players could squat 315? Or deadlift the same when they started? They need to get bigger and stronger and not worry about box squats on de day with 135 pounds. Plain old sets and reps will work.

And there’s nothing wrong with an exercise that hits the back as hard as cleans.[/quote]

I tend to agree with tom63 that while power cleans are a great upper body builder, doing the basics to develop strength will develop explosiveness in your sport, if you practice your basic skill sets. I played HS football and did throwing events in HS and college. I lifted using Olympic lifts, squats and deadlifts. In hindsight, I should have used more volume and more pressing and less O lifts. O lifts are great for developing the back or O competition, but to get big, strong and explosive you need to do basic compound exercises and practice your skill sets.