Cleans for H.S. Football

The other thread on h.s. football training got me wondering what people think of the power clean (or also the squat clean) as an exercise for football players (especially linemen). The guys at elite seem to think it is not that important, somewhat dangerous, hard to teach, and replaceable by other exercises. I had always figured that they were wrong since it had pretty much the highest power output of any exercise and it develops speed, strength, and coordination. On the other hand, the fact that skill position players can do as well as the linemen in this lift, even though I assume the linemen can block the shit out of the skinny guys made me start to wonder if the powerclean might not be that helpful/specific to football players.

I’d like to hear the views of the Westside guys and those who disagree with them.

there are a lot of ways to train to get faster and stronger and more explosive… the debate about cleans is kind of a stupid one. of course cleans are a great exercise… when it comes to teaching and training speed and explosiveness i doubt any other single exercise can beat them. but of course you can get streong and fast without them.

its funny that so many people rant against cleans or powercleans because they are supposedly so damn hard to teach and to do… hell i would have nightmares if i had to try to incorporate a westside training methodology for 50 or 100 kids who all had only about 40 minutes a day to train, which is about what most high school kids have in football or weight training class. just think aobut the coaching, equipment, expertise, etc. that it would take to get that done. but i wont rant against it, becasue im sure somewhere someone is doing a good job of it and getting results.

people have a problem with cleans for one reason… and that is that they dont have any expertise in teaching them or many times dont even know how they are supposed to be done. so, the kids have horrible form, are stuck using light weights, and kids get injured if they have unsafe for in ANY exercise, cleans included. same situation that would happen, and does happen, when some guy who hasnt ever seen a powerlifting meet, doesnt know squat about squatting, but has a bunch of 14 year olds on a high box wiggling around under weights they have no business having on thier backs. doesnt make box squatting bad, doesnt make cleans bad.

the sad situation is that most high school athletes are being coached in the weight room by people who are not qualified to do so, and this applies to those using westside methodologies, cleans and snatches, or even those just doing benches and curls. coaches, especially football coaches, tend to take this kind of assertion personally, as if their integrity is being attacked. but im no more attacking their ability to coach their given sport (or their integrity) than they would be attacking mine to say that i dont know crap about coaching football, which i dont.

I’ve dabbled in Westside…at most. On the other hand I’ve been using Oly lifts quite extensively for years. I have found that the smaller guys can build up their numbers in oly lifts to come somewhat close to the numbers put up by the big boys. One of the things that may figure into that type of occurence is the concept of relative stength. Smaller athletes tend to have a higher relative strength than big guys. Also, alot of the skill position players are in those positions because they are slightly more explosive and that may be why their numbers get to comparable levels. Just food for thought.

jimmy, what your saying is all true, but one other point id like to make is that linemen not dominating skill people on numbers isnt a valid reason why an exercise might not be a good one.

each exercise develops a slightly different physical quality… and those with more of that quality will also be better at that exercise.

squats develope strength. you dont ;have to be fast to have a strong squat. in fact, a big gut will help squat numbers, but certainly will interfere with speed numbers. this doesnt make squatting bad. even recievers will benefit from increased strength. going from a 300lb squat to a 400lb squat for a reciever might improve playing ability as much as going from 500lbs to 600lbs for a lineman.

cleans develope speed-strength and explosive power. you can have a 600lbs squat and 600lb deadlift and still not be able to clean 300lbs if you arent fast and explosive. people who have low clean numbers need to do them just as bad, or even moreso, than those with good clean numbers.

its just a representation of the body types that are needed to excell in a certain position when you see a running back who can squat 400 and clean 300 and a lineman who can squat 500 and clean 250. both players will benefit from improving BOTH lifts. doesnt make either lift good or bad.

I was a starting lineman in Jr. High and High School. I played Center and Nose-guard. In my six years, we only lost four games, and we won the state championship in our division my Jr & Sr year. The keys to our success involved a whole lot more than just any one thing, but something that stood out above most other teams was our weight training program and weight room (our coach would give visiting coaches tours). Deep squat cleans were a core exercise in our routine. I still do cleans, today, at 31.

One of the things that I heard from other players was, “man you guys hit hard!”

I’m not sure, how else, a 165 lbs. skinny bastard (me) was able to take on 300+ pounders (honestly ~ the 300 pounders were easy ~ it was the little nose-guards that were tough to handle). It was a matter of strength, will, and some skill. I hit the hip sled daily and did deep squat cleans three times/week.

That’s a little more than 2 cents worth ~ I vote for doing cleans on a regular basis.

~ jack

I was a starting lineman in Jr. High and High School. I played Center and Nose-guard. In my six years, we only lost four games, and we won the state championship in our division my Jr & Sr year. The keys to our success involved a whole lot more than just any one thing, but something that stood out above most other teams was our weight training program and weight room (our coach would give visiting coaches tours). Deep squat cleans were a core exercise in our routine. I still do cleans, today, at 31.

One of the things that I heard from other players was, “man you guys hit hard!”

I’m not sure, how else, a 165 lbs. skinny bastard (me) was able to take on 300+ pounders (honestly ~ the 300 pounders were easy ~ it was the little nose-guards that were tough to handle). It was a matter of strength, will, and some skill. I hit the hip sled daily and did deep squat cleans three times/week.

That’s a little more than 2 cents worth ~ I vote for doing cleans on a regular basis.

~ jack

Great thread so far… I feel as most of you do that cleans are generally very beneficial. I come from playing HS and college ball, both a decent levels. From what I have seen, good athletes and good hitters will be good almost no matter what they do. For the more mediocre guys to stand out, I do believe cleans will help them. Just as long as the basic power lifts are adequate before hand.

Here is something more sport specific to think about. When a linemen or line-backer fire off and hit someone, what do the coaches tell you to do? It should be head up, chest out, and “roll” the hips up into the target. What does a clean teach an athlete? Two out of those three - head up (power C in the back) and rolling the hips - IF taught correctly. All too often, kids are taught to pull the lift (clean) with the upper body, instead of the legs and hips. And, they tend to recieve the bar way too high and it’s executed too slowly, like a bench or squat. You don’t want to do a full Olympic clean, but you want to recieve the bar in at least a half squat - same position you play ball. And you want to execute the clean at maximum effort/speed, no matter the weight or reps being attempted.

Even more specific though, is that football is not a maximum strength sport - it’s a strength-endurance sport (compared to throwing or sprinting). Therefore, I believe an athlete can over-emphasize the Olympic lifts, because they are designed for maximum power. Where the squat, deadlift, bench, etc, are designed more strength-endurance (when specifically training for football). For instance, it’s no use to be able to do 10 cleans in a row, becuase the clean is not designed to be a strength-endurance lift - usually after 3 reps, the lift will slow. The remaining 7 reps will be sub-par both in technique (injuries) and execution (below maximum effort and speed). Both effort and speed must be at near 100% to substancially increase the effectivness of the clean movmement. I was on a final-four football team, in which they coached us to do sets of 10 cleans! Point being, if we hadn’t done them, I’m sure we would have been just as good! Why - again, because the clean is meant for very heavy weight, very few reps per set, to substancially increase one’s power.

In other words, I hope those of you who are cleaning are not treating the movement like a power lift, like benching or quatting. For football, power lifts are most effective in the 3-10 rep range, typically. For the Olympic lifts (clean, snatch, or clean and jerk) are properly performed ONLY in the 1-3 rep range, 85-100% of your 1RM. If you want to gain power-endurance in the clean, add more sets. Again, any more reps per set than 3, and the lift is mostly void. When working below optimum technique (after 3 reps or so), the ability to get more powerful will decrease, and you will be teaching your body to move slower = not good.

Everyone has had some good points.

Louie Simmons pointed out that if you take someone and improve their squat, their cleans will go up. However, if you improve someones clean, their squat won’t go up.

To a large extent this is true. This is why most oly based programs include heavy squatting. If you view the clean as the dynamic effort method, accelerating submax weight maximally, then essentially most olympic programs use a variation of the WSB conjugate method.

Now, are cleans necessary, obviously no. WSB uses box squats for their DE work.

Tom Myslinski recently told someone, use the WSB method while retaining your form on the olympic lifts by training around 70%, don’t train them hard. After a few weeks test your clean and see if it went up. This is essentially how Tom transitioned to the darkside, as he came from a heavy olympic lifting background.

I used this same method with a JC running back. He started with a 215 clean for 2 reps. In 5 weeks his clean jumped to 255 for 5 reps and hit 285 for a solid single. For the cleans we trained 60-70% (of his original 1rm)and did 8-10 sets of 1 rep never going over 145. After those 5 weeks, his conversion to the darkside was complete. He still trained to retain form on cleans, because his coach tested clean numbers.

Am I saying cleans are evil and to avoid them? No. They can be safely incorporated into a sound strength program. I just feel they are overrated. They are not the end all be all.

Build a solid foundation of strength and hypertrophy before even considering the Olympic lifts which are over used by most high school coaches.

I went to my old high school a week ago to help the coach design effective programs for his athletes. Well I was there I watched a 120-130lb 15 year old kid doing power cleans with 50 lb on the BB. Come on the kid can?t even do a 200lb squat.

Save the advanced methods for when there really needed.

My professor (Vladimir Zatsiorsky) told me in the beginning of class 2 weeks ago that strength and speed are to difffernt animals improving one won?t always improve the other! But improving strength will improve speed and most other motor qualities.

[quote]squattin600 wrote:

Tom Myslinski recently told someone, use the WSB method while retaining your form on the olympic lifts by training around 70%, don’t train them hard. After a few weeks test your clean and see if it went up. This is essentially how Tom transitioned to the darkside, as he came from a heavy olympic lifting background.

I used this same method with a JC running back. He started with a 215 clean for 2 reps. In 5 weeks his clean jumped to 255 for 5 reps and hit 285 for a solid single. For the cleans we trained 60-70% (of his original 1rm)and did 8-10 sets of 1 rep never going over 145. After those 5 weeks, his conversion to the darkside was complete. He still trained to retain form on cleans, because his coach tested clean numbers.
[/quote]

Thank you, I had been wondering about this for a couple of weeks. I think my CNS is just trashed from working w/ 90% weights for 3 straight weeks.

squattin600, this method will probably work most of the time if you are a bad cleaner, with not so good form. it wont work most of the time with a good OLer, or someone who is proficient in the clean. note i said IS proficient, not just THINKS they are proficient. thats why this isnt how the best cleaners in the world train.

Far too many have bad oly lifting forms. That’s why it’s not worth the effort trying to teach large group of kids. It’s too time consuming. We’d be better off doing westside based programs. WE’RE NOT TRAINING THEM TO BE OLY LIFTER! OLY LIFTING IS NOT NECCESSARY!


LT, CSCS

[quote]BOSS wrote:
My professor (Vladimir Zatsiorsky) told me in the beginning of class 2 weeks ago that strength and speed are to difffernt animals improving one won?t always improve the other! But improving strength will improve speed and most other motor qualities.

[/quote]

You should be so lucky to have his as your professor! It’s too bad Penn State S&C isn’t using his methods. We all could learn a lot from him.

[quote]Tungsten wrote:
Far too many have bad oly lifting forms. That’s why it’s not worth the effort trying to teach large group of kids. It’s too time consuming. We’d be better off doing westside based programs. WE’RE NOT TRAINING THEM TO BE OLY LIFTER! OLY LIFTING IS NOT NECCESSARY!


LT, CSCS[/quote]

LT-

Since you are a CSCS I’m sure you have seen lot’s of types of athletes and are educated on training. I don’t want to question your knowledge… you should then know that the clean is known to the best strength coaches as the fastest, most powerful lift in the training world! So, while I agree that teaching the clean to a large group of young athletes, without individual coaching is cumbersome. At the same time unfortunately, these kids “should” get the 1:1 coaching to properly implement the clean as one of the most important movements they can train.

Having said that, I believe an athlete that is weak in the basic back squat, should not attempt any Oly lift. I coach the throws at the HS level - I don’t let the kids go near the lift, until they can at least squat their weight. But, preferrably I want to see them hit 1-1/2 times their BW. Same goes for plyos - if they can’t full squat 1-1/2 their BW, they are certain to get injured doing plyos. Plyos are even more dynamic than Oly lifts which is why I brought them up.

Therefore, after the athlete has a decent base of strength (exceptional GPP and AA), cleans really should be one of their core lifts. With PROPER form, it has one of the highest potentials of increasing explosive ability, over any other movement, besides the sprint.

As far as a big squat helping improve a clean, but not visa-versa, I can see that being true. Because the clean is really a deadlift to start - the athlete must have good static-start strength, which is where the squat (front is better for cleans) and the deadlift will help the clean. And since it’s a dynamic lift, of course a big clean cannot help a heavy and slow back squat, because power lifts are not dynamic. They are essentially using two different muscle energy systems, differenct CNS stimulus/recovery, plus the dynamic movements utilize the stretch-reflex/shortening effect.

Bottom line: yes, many programs are over-emphasizing the clean and teaching it with poor form (not helping the athlete at all). But, it SHOULD be in the training program, but only if taught properly.

[quote]glenn pendlay wrote:
squattin600, this method will probably work most of the time if you are a bad cleaner, with not so good form. it wont work most of the time with a good OLer, or someone who is proficient in the clean. note i said IS proficient, not just THINKS they are proficient. thats why this isnt how the best cleaners in the world train.[/quote]

Yes but,

  1. Athletes are not elite olympic lifters.

  2. Athletes should not train like elite olympic lifters.

  3. Tom Myslinski, the man who I first read about this from, came from a very heavy olympic lifting based background.

  4. Cleans still are overrated. Just like the 40 yard dash.

I never said that cleans are evil, or should never be done.

People just make this exercise out to have these magical properties, when you actually don’t need or have to do cleans. There are other ways to develop power.

squattin600 and tungsten… you both seem to preceed from the premise that cleans are harder to teach than other exercises. this is not the case. I coach about 65 kids, from 8 and 9 years old to college age… all the kids can clean, and clean correctly… I’d estimate that many can clean correctly before they can do a good back squat. just because someone doesnt know how to coach the clean, doesnt mean it cant be coached. cleans are an easy exercise to teach, especially to young kids, most seem to “get it” almost instinctively if coached by a good coach.

Also, while poorly done “football” cleans/reverse curls might not influence the squat… properly done heavy cleans certainly do. its a heavy exercise, done with weights approaching max deadlift weights if a lifter is skilled. for instance, one 16 year old 160lb athlete I coach has a max olympic style raw squat of 407lbs, a max clean of 352lbs, and a max deadlift of 385lbs… cleaning multiple reps with 320 or 330lbs for a guy squatting about 400 certainly is heavy enough for a training effect on the squat!

In short, inability to coach an exercise or even inability to properly do an exercise does not make it a bad exercise!

All that having been said, if you cant do cleans, and dont have anyone to teach you to do them, stick with what you know. but dont fault the exercise.

The reference to Tom Myslinsky is correct. When I started doing Westside type lifting, I used exercises such as the hang clean, hang snatch and varying high pulls with light weights as a warmup to my DE squat. Rarely did I perform the olympic lifts heavy, but when I tested them, they continued to improve. Cleans are not that bad for athletes, but are not the be all and end all of a program. In terms of benefits, I would say that training economy is the best part of it. In terms of football players and cleans, I think it is a waste to teach them to do it with olympic form ie dropping into a full squat position to catch the weight and going from the floor. Rather I think these lifts should be done from the hang thus focusing on pure explosion through the hips with very little dropping to catch the weight. Once I started doing cleans only from the hang, I felt it transfered well into my ability to deliver a blow. However I think that lower body and upper body plyometrics are great for athletes and should be focused on alot more by HS coaches.

If you re-read my posts I don’t think i ever said the clean was tough to teach, or even a bad exercise.

I just feel it’s overrated and not neccessary. it certainly can be incorporated into a program, but it is not essential or mandatory. You don’t NEED to do cleans. There are many other ways to train for power.

BTw there are many westsiders/darksiders who do incorporate olympic lifts into athletic programs. Joe Kenn’s tier system comes to mind.

Personally I feel that the tier method is the best training program for Athletes. Everyone should read Joe’s book. Well worth the money. I do think that olympic lifts have merit. So I am not anti oly lifts by any means. I’m just sick of people getting so hung up on the movement. If you don’t have a qualified teacher, then don’t worry about them. You can use other things for power (speed squats, KEAT training, etc…)

Tungsten I went to Penn State to take summer school classes under him. I go to ASU full time. Someone told me years ago ?some times the best info comes from the source?.

Here is another of his gems:
“Speed is not the end all be all of sports, in fact strength is probable a more trainable motor quality and has the side effect of increasing speed (dynamic method) and most other motor qualities”.