If you look at how a real olympic lifter trains they do all the powerlifts as a helper to gain in the olympic lifts. Obviously you must get stronger in order to lift more weight. the powerlifts focus more on absolute strength, while the Olymic lifts are always more dynamic in nature. Everyone in trying to choose one or the other, when in fact both should be done in order to transform a person into the ultimate athlete.
And there is no reason why both cannot be done. We have the power to do both not one or the other so why not get the best of both worlds??!!
Check out everything Coach Charles Poliquin has to say… Olympic lifts are the ticket. Archive his articles here at T-Nation and also his site: charlespoliquin.net
[quote]Ryu13 wrote:
But how will that speed help out in football? How will pulling a bar from the floor in a quick manner do anything for your football skills? ANY skills other than olympic lifting for that matter?[/quote]
Yes Ryu, we all know. We should just strap weights to our chests, ankles, arms, head, and hips. Then go out and do our sports for 1 hour. And then go home. And we’ll get better. Right … specificity and overload … all in one.
[quote]tar wrote:
Check out everything Coach Charles Poliquin has to say… Olympic lifts are the ticket. Archive his articles here at T-Nation and also his site: charlespoliquin.net[/quote]
Where is this stuff about the Olympic lifting on his website??
Worker
Also remember that weight lifting is a tool and often the best weight room numbers belong to the bench warmers. I’m opening a can of worms here I know that. I don’t believe it should be that way. I think that in general the “better” athletes don’t feel they need the weight room work. Just think if they did work as hard?
The guys who do work very hard probably don’t do any running or stretching so they get stiff watching the other players from the sidelines and the new found strength never becomes useful. Am I making sense? Probably not.[/quote]
Or, maybe the best athletes are doing what they need to in the weight room and spending the rest of their time practicing. Meanwhile, Joe the bench warmer is convinced that a new team record in the power clean is his ticket to Starterville.
It seems that S&C is becoming overemphasized in athletics, to the detriment of skill development. It’s great to be stronger, but you skill have to have “the goods” to play the game. I don’t see any Olympic lifters playing in the NFL, or any other pro sport for that matter(unless I’m wrong:).
If the skills are transferable, then why not both ways? Surely some of these elite lifters would move on to the greener pastures of the NFL. They can’t all be that passionate about weightlifting(even if they were, they could still do plenty of it in the NFL).
I wonder what Poliquin et al. would have to say about that.
[quote]Feanor76 wrote:
Ryu13 wrote:
But how will that speed help out in football? How will pulling a bar from the floor in a quick manner do anything for your football skills? ANY skills other than olympic lifting for that matter?
Yes Ryu, we all know. We should just strap weights to our chests, ankles, arms, head, and hips. Then go out and do our sports for 1 hour. And then go home. And we’ll get better. Right … specificity and overload … all in one.
Regards,
Mark
[/quote]
Is that what I said? I specifically backed down from this arguement BECAUSE of nerds like you, who swear by one exercise. Don’t put fucking words in my mouth, and when you see an old post that has already been argued fifty times don’t quote it again with lame jokes, dumbass.
Olympic lifting is for two types of people:
A.) The guy who sucks at bodybuilding/powerlifting, but has an avid ability to catch barbells, so he switches to that thinking he’s the newest hotshot in his gym.
B.) The shitty football player who thinks that “Power Cleans” will make him powerfull on the field.
THAT is my opinion, quote it all you want, attack it all you want, it’s all yours.
A.) The guy who sucks at bodybuilding/powerlifting, but has an avid ability to catch barbells, so he switches to that thinking he’s the newest hotshot in his gym.
B.) The shitty football player who thinks that “Power Cleans” will make him powerfull on the field.
[/quote]
or…
C) The guy who wants to compete in the only internationally recognized strength sport.
D) The guy who wants to compete in a strength sport that allows him to move weights through a full range of motion relying on his own skill, speed and strength rather than gear and the technique to master that.
E) The guy who wants to do his part to help take back the sport that was once dominated by Americans on the international level and upon the shoulders of which bodybuilding, powerlifting, and athletics training as we know it today, stand.
[quote]Ryu13 wrote:
Power cleans are nice, but not THAT nice. Ever since that word “power” was added, and the full squat was removed, people have loved this movement. It’s easy to do and lots of weight can be used, and it so called develops “power”. It should be used when training the olympic lifts, and only when training the olympic lifts.
It’s not going to do jack-shit for football. It doesn’t translate into any football related movement. Time would be better spent adding more size, and practicing drills.[/quote]
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Any movement that emphasizes hip drive and explosion is going to improve performance on the field.
Add more size you say? What if the athlete is slow? Bigger is always better huh? Sorry but that just isnt the case. I’d take speed and explosiveness over size any day.
[quote]driveblock wrote:
I am a track and football coach at a small high school. I was having a discussion with another one of the football coaches, and we came to a very strong difference of opinion regarding power cleans.
My fellow coach maintained that cleans offered no benefit to developing power and explosiveness for athletes. He maintained that pure powerlifting practices (squats, deadlifts) did more to develop explosiveness in developing athletes. He says that cleans don?t help kids become more explosive.
I have attempted to read extensively about both Olympic and power-lifting. I have only seen one article in which anybody attempted to scientifically prove that cleans did nothing to develop athletes, and I found it only moderately convincing.
All the anecdotal evidence I can find maintains that cleans help develop explosiveness. Athletes who do them swear by them. Track coaches, especially throwing coaches swear by them. Then, there is the study that found that Olympic lifters were more explosive (as measured by the 10-yard sprint) than most true sprinters. Also, the largest unified training program used by coaches who are developing young athletes for competition ? Bigger Faster Stronger ? swears by them.
In my own experience, the football players who could hit well (not just run into things) were good at power cleans. Is it logical then that by improving the clean, one can improve explosiveness? It is hard to argue with the results Husker Power has had with Nebraska football players, but those kids are already great athletes when they come to Lincoln.
I guess the real question is this: Is there real world evidence that cleans do or don?t help young athletes develop explosiveness?
I am looking for debate on the issue. I realize that this topic is likely to get a lot of people fired up, but lets keep this one civil, please.
[/quote]
This “coach” needs to really get a friggin clue. Where is he getting his info from?
If you train fast, you get fast. Its that simple. IF an athlete does powerlifting movements and does them slow, they would get strong and experience more hypertrophy but chasing weight room numbers just makes you better at lifting more weight, not a better football player.
Add more size you say? What if the athlete is slow? Bigger is always better huh? Sorry but that just isnt the case. I’d take speed and explosiveness over size any day.
[/quote]
Yeah, look at Bruce Lee:)
Seriously, if the athlete is big and slow, get his ass out of the weight room and on the track. That’s were real speed improvement happens. They need to develop the ability to move explosively through space, not with their feet planted on the ground(power clean mini-jump and stomp not withstanding).
A.) The guy who sucks at bodybuilding/powerlifting, but has an avid ability to catch barbells, so he switches to that thinking he’s the newest hotshot in his gym.
B.) The shitty football player who thinks that “Power Cleans” will make him powerfull on the field.
or…
C) The guy who wants to compete in the only internationally recognized strength sport.
D) The guy who wants to compete in a strength sport that allows him to move weights through a full range of motion relying on his own skill, speed and strength rather than gear and the technique to master that.
E) The guy who wants to do his part to help take back the sport that was once dominated by Americans on the international level and upon the shoulders of which bodybuilding, powerlifting, and athletics training as we know it today, stand.[/quote]
or:
F)Just a regular guy who likes to train for strength and like the feeling of getting a heavy bar from the ground to over his head.
[quote]Ryu13 wrote:
Feanor76 wrote:
Ryu13 wrote:
But how will that speed help out in football? How will pulling a bar from the floor in a quick manner do anything for your football skills? ANY skills other than olympic lifting for that matter?
Yes Ryu, we all know. We should just strap weights to our chests, ankles, arms, head, and hips. Then go out and do our sports for 1 hour. And then go home. And we’ll get better. Right … specificity and overload … all in one.
Regards,
Mark
Is that what I said?
[/quote]
No, it’s not what you said, but it was the argument that you were making. That (power) cleans are not applicable to football movements (in particular “football skills”).
If you can’t see the analogy here, I’ll draw it out for you. “How will pulling a bar from the floor in a quick manner do anything for your football skills?” … Well, how will pushing a bar off your chest do anything for your football skills? How will standing up with a bar on your back do anything for your football skills? How will running straight ahead on an empty track do anything for your football skills?
Indeed, even if you mean football skills in the most literal sense (as in technique), any of these can help … because they will develop the raw tools that the body uses to do athletic activity on the field.
Well, now who’s putting words in other people’s mouths. In fact, you are now specifically saying that I swear by one exercise. Nowhere did I state that.
Also, nice use of ad hominem attacks. Get a little worked up and spew filth. It’s very easy online, isn’t it?
No jokes in there, really. Just sarcasm. And “old post”? Really, I just can’t consider responding to a Wednesday post on Friday to be responding to something that is outdated.
So, Olympic lifting is good for no one interested in real athletic performance … even Olympic lifting performance? Huh. Even Louie Simmons has recommended cleans for developing deadlifts. So, I’d have to say you have a pretty extreme position there, “tiger uppercut”.
Does anybody have a current study that shows the outstanding capabilities of Olympic weightlifters vs. sprinters, jumpers, etc.?
The Yessis study that is often cited as proof of the efficacy of olympic lifts is nearly 40 years old, and at the time weightlifters were probably about the only Olympic athletes who lifted weights at all. So, naturally you’d expect them to do better, especially in very short duration explosive events.
[quote]Feanor76 wrote:
Well, how will pushing a bar off your chest do anything for your football skills? How will standing up with a bar on your back do anything for your football skills?
[/quote]
It will help you gain the weight that scouts look for, idiot.
[quote] How will running straight ahead on an empty track do anything for your football skills?
[/quote]
It will help you gain the speed that scouts look for, idiot.
I said nerds LIKE you, learn to read.
Is Louie simmons in the NFL? Can Louie simmons run a 4.4 at his body weight? No? Then Louie simmons can stay the fuck out of the arguement. I’d say you have a pretty lame position there, uhhh “lion hook punch”???
C) The guy who wants to compete in the only internationally recognized strength sport.
[/quote]
Failed Powerlifter, cant get his fame in the US so he goes to other countries.
Failed powerlifter.
[quote]
E) The guy who wants to do his part to help take back the sport that was once dominated by Americans on the international level and upon the shoulders of which bodybuilding, powerlifting, and athletics training as we know it today, stand.[/quote]
So… pretty much, failed bodybuilders and failed powerlifters, thanks for clearing that up.
[quote]Krollmonster wrote:
Kir Dog wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
And technique work in the clean wont help you on the football field.
You are learning to fire your muscles in the most advantageous manner using the strongest muscles and maximizing leverage while triple extending. Sounds like something that could be useful on the football field.[/quote]
Learning to keep the bar close to your body is also an important part of technique in O-lifting - how is that going to help a football player?
[quote]KBCThird wrote:
Learning to keep the bar close to your body is also an important part of technique in O-lifting - how is that going to help a football player?[/quote]
It’s not specifically, but it should also only take a day to learn with a competent coach.
[quote]buffalokilla wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
Learning to keep the bar close to your body is also an important part of technique in O-lifting - how is that going to help a football player?
It’s not specifically, but it should also only take a day to learn with a competent coach.
-Dan[/quote]
However long it takes, my point int he original post that krollmonster quoted was that if you improve a kids clean by getting him stronger, htat will help him on the field. If you improve his clean by improving his technique - such as, for example, teaching him to keep the bar closer to his body - that wont help him on the field.
[quote]KBCThird wrote:
buffalokilla wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
Learning to keep the bar close to your body is also an important part of technique in O-lifting - how is that going to help a football player?
It’s not specifically, but it should also only take a day to learn with a competent coach.
-Dan
However long it takes, my point int he original post that krollmonster quoted was that if you improve a kids clean by getting him stronger, htat will help him on the field. If you improve his clean by improving his technique - such as, for example, teaching him to keep the bar closer to his body - that wont help him on the field.[/quote]
Keeping the bar close is just basic lifting technique for most lifts, including Deadlifts, military press…just maximizing leverage.
Technique in OL really isn’t some magical quality.