It is really a very simple principle. An athlete MUST use all means and methods to enhance force (not strength or power) production, ala Westside training. Force is mass times acceleration. So the mass is trained with heavy, maximal effort training and the acceleration is trained with quick, explosive DE training.
It really doesn’t matter what means are used for the DE training (dynamic box squats, cleans, deadlifts, even box jumps and other plyos) as long as the resistance is in the proper 50-60% range.
Where people get hung up on cleans is that as even a maximal effort clean is a dynamic effort lift. For example, I can deadlift 610, but power clean 308 maximally. So my maximal clean is in essence a 50% speed deadlift. But the CNS load is the same a max effort load.
So if I use cleans at 50% (for me 150 pounds) as a DE lift then in essence its a not even a 30% speed deadlift, I feel its to light a load to receive a training effect. I know I’m rambling, but the point is the lifters clean technique needs to be extremely good to be able to handle enough weight to receive a optimal training effort as a DE lift. The speed squats and deads are easier to learn and use for most lifters.
I think Ross is right about the olympic lifter study. I believe it was done at the mexico city games. i believe that was in the 60’s or 70’s before weights became big for sports.
Also i have heard that the study was never performed.
Tha other guy, sorry forgot name, is also sight. you need to develop the entire force specrtum and DE work is part of it. I believe Oly’s are a DE type lift.
Also as I said earlier, jumanji is smart and He makes a ton of points.
as far as cleans helping hitting. not so sure. if they bench, squat, dl, and run the 40 the same we can pretty much assume they will display similar power profiles regardless of their experience olympic lifting.
Why do I say this?
The 40 is a test of exlosive strength and power. As a result, we can pretty much assume they would have the same hitting power
[quote]squattin600 wrote:
as far as cleans helping hitting. not so sure. if they bench, squat, dl, and run the 40 the same we can pretty much assume they will display similar power profiles regardless of their experience olympic lifting.
Why do I say this?
The 40 is a test of exlosive strength and power. As a result, we can pretty much assume they would have the same hitting power[/quote]
You’re probably right, they would probably have similar power profiles with all other things being equal. My main point was that the athlete who practiced cleans could apply force, power or speed quicker when his brain asks his body to do it.
I still believe that someone who does cleans will be able to make a quicker lower body movement in a very short (under a second) amount of time than someone who doesn’t, with all variables of the athletes being equal. Jumping, reaction off of the blocks, exploding through the running back with your hips, kicking, double leg takedown, cutting, etc. are things that I believe clean variations can help and have an advantage on.
[quote]Ryu13 wrote:
nbutka wrote:
Ryu13 wrote:
Power cleans are nice, but not THAT nice. Ever since that word “power” was added, and the full squat was removed, people have loved this movement. It’s easy to do and lots of weight can be used, and it so called develops “power”. It should be used when training the olympic lifts, and only when training the olympic lifts.
It’s not going to do jack-shit for football. It doesn’t translate into any football related movement. Time would be better spent adding more size, and practicing drills.
lol…so far off
if you have tried these lifts and havent had success…its typically because you haven’t had a good coach to teach you the lifts
or you havent had the patience
Had success at what? Becoming a better football player? Please explain what “success” power cleans will give me.[/quote]
power cleans arent going to make you a guaranteed success…they will make you faster though…
there are other exercises that can be used instead of power cleans, like the pl exercises and this is optimal for anyone that cant learn the lift from someone experienced, but olympic lifts are best at making athletes more explosive
Great points, and agree. Like I told Kir Dog, he couldn’t be more correct. Strength is abysmal most places I go to… and O-Lift form makes my stomache queasy… almost get a hernia from watching.
Squattin~
LOL, I don’t know about that, but when I have the time, I like to help out. Since I just moved back to my childhood stomping grounds, I am very busy gathering clients. Maybe I am just a throwback to our RED scientists who really worked the science of training… coupled with hundreds of young athletes at all times worth of experience. I have read everything I can get my hands on, but 10,000(hit this mark in 2003)+ hours of “hands-on” training is what I attribute my knowledge to… but, the books do help me critically analyze what we do at Athletic Matrix. Plus, guys here at T-Mag constantly challenge, which is a GOOD THING.
I have 70+ for my next 8 week camp, but I really need to find a dedicated situation…
When I do, I will be back to helping out here more. It is good to see Ross back, and guys like you, Kir Dog, prof X, etc. really keep up the quality of discussion. Good job.
Always feel at home when I come back to T-Mag. Even if people disagree… can’t please everybody… I mean, someone has to be slow, right?
Ross~
Good to see you here buddy. Sorry we never got to do some work together in Indy. When I get settled here, I will have you down to see what I am putting together here. Maybe not hardcore enough for you, but very productive for the second tier type sports. Soccer moms smile…LOL. No chalk, but results and happy parents. Plus, who can argue with being out in the sun every day?
[quote]Ryu13 wrote:
How will pulling a bar from the floor in a quick manner do anything for your football skills? ANY skills other than olympic lifting for that matter?[/quote]
Ryu13 is absolutely right. Cleans are useless for football. So is all weight training.
If you want debate as to whether strength training makes you a better athlete you’re out of your mind. STRENGTH training is for STRENGTH. If you’re worried about your kids’ skills, that has to be practiced more. Nobody is saying that if I can clean 315 and you can only clean 225 that I’m a better football player than you. What I am saying - and I would imagine a lot of others although i cant put words in their mouths - is that if you can take a kid and move his clean from 135 to 225 he WILL be a better football player than he was before. Everyone’s - or at the very least, i have - seen a kid who’s slightly below average in size wreck a bigger kid because the small guy had excellent technique. But I’ve also seen big kids whose technique wasnt picture-perfect but was nevertheless adequate dominate a smaller kid, even if the smaller’s technique was near flawless.
Let me break it down simply for you:
Big strong kid with piss poor technique? Work on his skills[insert gratuitous napoleon dynamite quote here]
Small weak kid with great technique? get his ass in the weight room.
In short, work on your weaknesses. Hmm, wonder who said that?
[quote]BlakedaMan wrote:
My high school has a lifting period for us football players, and almost every kid in there is doing them wrong. The coach is telling them when he sees it but there is like 50+ of in there so its kind of hard to see everyone. Most people dont even explode up with there lower body. They just use a light enough weight that they can clean it without there legs.
[/quote]
You sound really mature for a high schooler, especially understanding the difficulties your coach has in trying to supervise 50 of you all at once.
[quote] Mowgli wrote:
But no weight training or conditioning program will be specific to any sport whose talents require anything beyond weightlifting. Weight training is general in nature, but can be tailored somewhat to help develop the physical capacities needed to succeed in a sport. [/quote]
Thank God. SOMEbody gets it.
Kir Dog, I really have to disagree with your assertion that a kid who practices the clean will hit harder than a kid of equal size, strength and speed. If they are both of equal strength and speed than any differences in the weight cleaned will be attributable to superior technique in the clean. And technique work in the clean wont help you on the football field.
Safe but expensive way to develope power.
A combination of light load training and heavy strength training may be the best of both worlds. The bar speed of a power clean is to slow to develope speed and the load and tension is to low to develope strength.
I feel power cleans have helped me become a better athlete. I was a pretty crappy football player my sophmore year but after a weight training program incorporating cleans and snatches my speed and power improved tremendously. But that could just be adding 175+ pounds to the squat.
Thanks, but if you were addressing me, I think you have me confused with someone else. I certainly like chalk, but I’ve never been to Indianopolis.[/quote]
[quote]KBCThird wrote:
Kir Dog, I really have to disagree with your assertion that a kid who practices the clean will hit harder than a kid of equal size, strength and speed. If they are both of equal strength and speed than any differences in the weight cleaned will be attributable to superior technique in the clean. And technique work in the clean wont help you on the football field.[/quote]
That’s ok that you disagree. You may very well be right. I respect your opinion and I think that we’ve had a great discussion so far.
I still strongly stick by my guns. I’ll back down a little and say that maybe the kid who power cleans has potential to turn on more motor units and explode harder.
The Olympic lifts in general are the most explosive lifts, and develop the most speed and power in an athlete. It’s been proven not in studies but in real life by real people. The key is doing them correctly. I would say that at least 75% of people do them wrong because almost no coaches know how to teach it. They are very difficult to learn and it takes time.
Also there is no way to really learn them correctly on your own, you must have someone to teach you. Another thing about Olympic lifting is that it develops balance, coordination, and flexibility along with strength and power. It has a much greater range or motion than any of the powerlifts. the bar must go from to floor to above the head in both the snatch and clean and jerk. This causes it to be much better than the powerlifts for developing an athlete. I still feel that the powerlifts should be done, just not focused on as much as the Olympic lifts
[quote]Kir Dog wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
And technique work in the clean wont help you on the football field.
[/quote]
You are learning to fire your muscles in the most advantageous manner using the strongest muscles and maximizing leverage while triple extending. Sounds like something that could be useful on the football field.
Strength power and flexibility make kids faster on the field. anyone who thinks weightlifting does not help a football player is clueless. I would take eleven strong kids over eleven weak kids anyday.
Most high schoolers should work on the powerlifts through full ranges of motion. Coaching is really poor at this level and it is hard enough to get kids to squat and deadlift properly let alone try to teach the correct clean technique. I work with some high school kids and it is an absolute shame what coaches do to these kids. There is no rhyme or reason to the abuse.
I actually think that the use of all methods are necessary to improve athletes.
[quote]Daha wrote:
I swear by power cleans, I didnt train my deadlift for a month, but changed to power cleans, then when i tried deadlifting again, I five repped my one rep max…
nick[/quote]
I had a similar experience with the squat. One summer I cleaned hard for 2 months without squatting (I did do snatch squats). My squat went up 60 pounds. My 40 time dropped, and i gained about 15 pounds lbm. At the same time though, I was a college offensive lineman. If you don’t have guys that are already squatting heavy and cleaning heavy, then I would have them work on both exercises.
As far as your colleague who doesn’t want them to clean, tell him that every college football program in the country that wins more than 5 games a year incorporates ol into their programs. teaching these kids to clean correctly will only prepare them better for college.
[quote]nbutka wrote:
this has been discussed so many times its tiring…
but there are a few basic things which are indisputable in my opinion
olympic lifts are best the best lifts to develop explosiveness
olympic lifts are extremely hard to learn with no coach
basic powerlifting exercises like the deadlift, squat, and bench can be used as explosive expercises to help develop maximal force and explosivity
powerlifting exercises are easier to learn than the olympic lifts
basically theres more than one way to skin a cat[/quote]
Agreed.
Also, O’ lifters back squat and front squat. Every lift they do that is an O’ lift incorporates deadlifting. So why not do all three? I believe that they all help each other. If O’ lifting was the best then why do O’ lifters look to increase the squat? If the squat was the best then why arn’t powerlifters the quickest mo’ fos’ on the planet. Athletes should not be focused one specializing in the wieght room but should be able to do many lifts well.
Also remember that weight lifting is a tool and often the best weight room numbers belong to the bench warmers. I’m opening a can of worms here I know that. I don’t believe it should be that way. I think that in general the “better” athletes don’t feel they need the weight room work. Just think if they did work as hard?
The guys who do work very hard probably don’t do any running or stretching so they get stiff watching the other players from the sidelines and the new found strength never becomes useful. Am I making sense? Probably not.
I’m almost through reading the first page and it has been said but it has been said in a very complex style. Both are needed. One with out the other leaves a hole. It is basic conjugate periodization. There are other ways to use conjugate periodization but this is one very effective way to do it. Anyone totally disagree?
Also someone said most athletes do the clean wrong and don’t use enough weight. Your right. But one must learn them with light weight and if a coach has four years with his athletes then by the time they are sophmores they should be doing squats, cleans and deads with great form. Train movements not weights and the athlete is better off. Movement with great posture leads to very heavy weight.
We must not look at getting strong as an overnight effort but something that is a process. I’m sure I’ll get flamed for that. Think of it this way. You teach the squat first, then dead and clean. The athlete is learning new motor patterns which is important also he is learning form. After one year of this he/she should be very familiar with all three. Then the snatch is thrown in. The body is becoming very efficient at moving as one piece. What do you think?
[quote]Crow wrote:
It is really a very simple principle. An athlete MUST use all means and methods to enhance force (not strength or power) production, ala Westside training. Force is mass times acceleration. So the mass is trained with heavy, maximal effort training and the acceleration is trained with quick, explosive DE training.
It really doesn’t matter what means are used for the DE training (dynamic box squats, cleans, deadlifts, even box jumps and other plyos) as long as the resistance is in the proper 50-60% range.
Where people get hung up on cleans is that as even a maximal effort clean is a dynamic effort lift. For example, I can deadlift 610, but power clean 308 maximally. So my maximal clean is in essence a 50% speed deadlift. But the CNS load is the same a max effort load.
So if I use cleans at 50% (for me 150 pounds) as a DE lift then in essence its a not even a 30% speed deadlift, I feel its to light a load to receive a training effect. I know I’m rambling, but the point is the lifters clean technique needs to be extremely good to be able to handle enough weight to receive a optimal training effort as a DE lift. The speed squats and deads are easier to learn and use for most lifters.[/quote]
I agree. But…you are learning or if already learned using a new motor pattern. Also cleans and snatches utilitze your whole body in a more complex movement and that is useful in sports. We should not be specializing in the weight room as athelets rather exposing the body to as many different stimuli as possible.
How about close grip snatches, wood choppers with med ball, using the med ball and taking it from ground to overhead and slamming it behind ones back, medicine ball throws with ones legs. Things like this all work that all important explosive power element while creating new movement patterns. This is true General Physical Preparedness.
Most people when they talk of GPP are actually specializing in pulling a sled or using stronman equipment rather than working on multiple movements making them different all the time. I’m getting off subject so I’ll stop.