Postural Deviances (for Prof X , et al.)

Training Bodybuilding
1

[quote]Professor X wrote:

No, you are the idiot for assuming that one should locate “structural” imbalances before they get their foot in the door and determine whether any of this has any major effect on their training ability. I can only assume your stance is that the majority of people who lift have some structural imbalance that will affect their training greatly. Outside of professional sports where the smallest detail can make the largest difference in absolute greatness, I think you have exaggerated.[/quote]

When looking at the effects of training outside of muscular growth, the effects are not greatly exaggerated. As I’m sure many of the authors here would agree, little deviances such as fallen arches, mild anterior pelvic tilt, etc. will develop into major problems if not attended to. I didn’t say people shouldn’t do any physical activity without a postural assessment, I said that people should not start lifting heavy before that.

[quote]I’m helping a few friends at college get into training, and it would have been recklessly irresponsible to have them “work hard and eat” right off the bat. One of them has severely tight internal rotators and scar tissue from a ganglion cyst surgery. If I would have had him get on the bench and start lifting hard, he would have injured his shoulders and possibly wrist, compounding his problems and turning him off to weight training.

This is like ignoring someone who just had knee surgery and having them squat immediately afterwards. Do you honestly think this applies to the average lifter who has not had this done? [/quote]

The wrist surgery was done a while ago, and he has been cleared for physical activity by his doctor. To start lifting heavy prior to rehabbing the area with flexibility drills and specific strengthening exercises would have been foolhardy.

Yes, I have seen that this does apply to the average lifter, even if they have not had surgery. I don’t remember exact figures, but a preponderance of the population has a significant flaw that will affect training. Overly tight hamstrings from sitting at a desk all day that will cause a loss of torso rigidity when squatting, unilateral strength imbalances, let’s not even get started on tightness about the neck that can cause headaches…

[quote]
The other is a distance runner for X-Country and track. If I would have had her jump into squatting and cleaning and the like, she would have caused severe damage to her knee due to significant tracking problems. She also has tight internal rotators and traps, as well as serratus anterior due to her running posture. Jumping into working hard with rows and pulldowns would have caused any number of muscles in her upper back to develop major problems, possibly snapping around the scapula.

I call bullshit on this one because most advanced runners should be working on their running form by that level, not ignoring any major problems that then carry over into lifting. Are you a chiropractor? An orthapedic specialist? If not, what makes you think you are qualified to rework her physique without deep consideration into how this will now effect her running ability if there is such a large structural issue? You are the one who could be causing more harm than good if there truly are structural defects that significant. It also begs the question of how she was able to get to that level of running while ignoring these problems that are now such large problems that she can’t squat without your guidance. [/quote]

I am an exercise professional - I’ll be sitting for the HFI exam in a few weeks, and the CSCS when there’s a convenient test location. I do realize I’m not a specialist in these types of issues, though, so I consulted with the athletic trainers she works with to find out what her issues were (I’d already had ideas, which were confirmed by them). We’re proceeding from there with light corrective exercises to fix the problems as much as is possible. Her knee tracking problems are getting a little better with VMO strengthening exercises, and stretching is the only viable course of action for her upper body right now. Her problems are compounded by poor recovery ability, as she is a vegetarian who does not take care to eat optimally.

You proved my overall point when you asked how she can run at this level when she can’t even squat without my (or any qualified professional’s) help. She started running in 8th grade by getting her foot in the door and working hard. What nobody took the time to check for is that she tends to run on the outside of her foot and with her shoulders rolled forward, which, over the years, has developed into the problems I described. Her race times have been increasing since her senior year of high school; without help, she won’t make the team in 2 years.

[quote]
The main reason these problems have developed? They never learned how to move correctly. They just jumped into heavy physical activity without learning proper posture or consulting with someone who could show them how to do things properly.

Who in this thread has indicated that form is not an issue when lifting? In fact, if my form was wrong, I can guarantee that I would have had an injury by now. [/quote]

By indicating postural deviances aren’t a major issue, you are saying that form is not a major issue.

[quote]
And attacking GetLifted for his size? Good lord, it’s rediculous. He’s at 205 from 160 or whatever and is still looking to gain, and figuring out how to do it SAFELY and effectively. Wait, I know! Let’s criticize people for trying to lose fat preferentially to muscle when losing weight! Just eat less and exercise, right? It’s the right way to do it!

Listen, genius, no one “attacked” him for his size or made an issue of it until he felt the need to inform me that he had been training hard since the age of 6 and that his training knowledge has led to articles and web site. When someone claims they have trained that long, you are saying their progress should be ignored? No, their progress should be deeply analyzed and the question of, “why aren’t you farther along?” should then pop up. [/quote]

Unless he lives in Texas, he was just playing around at age 6. As I recall, he didn’t say that he’d had it all figured out since he was 10. His statements were a valid response to your premature conclusions about his training status. To know why he isn’t farther along, you have to know his life narrative, particularly his goals and priorities, as well as how his parents supported him when he was younger.

Not a chiro necessarily, just a qualified professional who can do a quick postural assessment. Why not have someone on staff who can take 15 minutes and do this for a client at a gym?

I’m not surprised to hear this. Heard it before. They’re probably had bad experiences with those who take chiropractic medicine to the level of religion, rather than a body management tool.

I think the difference here is that I care about the long-term health and well being of people who train. You work from the standpoint of fixing something when it’s broken, whereas I work from the standpoint of living as well as possible. I don’t see how I’m stepping outside of common sense when I suggest a new trainee takes 20 minutes with a person versed in biomechanics to note any problems that need to be fixed.

No, but it may turn into one down the road.

Thanks for trying to turn my own phrase back on me. It was cute.

All we’re doing now is, in conjunction with certified athletic trainers, keeping the major problems at bay. She hurts all the time, and what we’re doing helps so that she can walk up stairs without falling over. She doesn’t live in the state where we’re going to school, so her insurance doesn’t cover her out here. I’ve emphasized that she needs to see a specialist when she gets home, and have finally gotten her to agree.

I’m also going to be in contact with her PT back home to continue her therapy out here, since her insurance won’t cover her seeing a licensed PT. I may not be qualified yet to design a program, but I (and others who take the time to learn how to move correctly)certainly know enough to help her execute one.

I hope I didn’t come across as to self-aggrandizing, I don’t mean to try to build myself up as some sort of perfect trainer or anything. Any professional who cares enough about a client’s health could do the same things, as long as they aren’t lazy.

-Dan

2

Nice post Dan. Too bad it will probably get lost on the MD’s who only seem to deal with anything when its already broken and when I say deal with it they usually give them a script for NSAIDs and opiates.

I had some rotation of my femur a while back that led to excruciating pain along my knee after about 1/2 mile of running. Doctors told me not to run and to take 800 mgs of ibuprofen twice a day! I decided that was unacceptable and fixed the problem myself without the undue stress to my liver and kidneys.

3

[quote]buffalokilla wrote:

When looking at the effects of training outside of muscular growth, the effects are not greatly exaggerated. As I’m sure many of the authors here would agree, little deviances such as fallen arches, mild anterior pelvic tilt, etc. will develop into major problems if not attended to. I didn’t say people shouldn’t do any physical activity without a postural assessment, I said that people should not start lifting heavy before that. [/quote]

What is “heavy”? It is relative and while I agree that significant postural abnormalities can lead to further problems, it would seem like overkill for the average beginner to think in these terms before any signs of an imbalance are ever apparent. This is where there is a logical difference between dealing with a noticeable issue and playing the hand of prevention which is often dealt by chiropractic specialists. I think form should be the initial issue taught by any personal trainer. If a problem exists, such as pain during certain movements or an inability to perform certain movements at all then the issue needs to be looked into from a performance standpoint. No one is arguing this issue, only how it is dealt with. This is also, by the way, where chiropractic specialties come under fire. By playing the hand of “check it out to see if there is a problem before there is a problem” it lends itself greatly to their bank accounts. I personally think most significant imbalances that effect the general population can be assessed at general physicals or during training if supported by a well trained personal trainer (of course, however, we know how many billions of those there). Beyond that, as far as pro sports or even those on the college level, the stakes are greater and thusly smaller details come to light as they should.

[quote]
The wrist surgery was done a while ago, and he has been cleared for physical activity by his doctor. To start lifting heavy prior to rehabbing the area with flexibility drills and specific strengthening exercises would have been foolhardy. [/quote]

Who would argue this? Honestly, are there anymore gems like look both ways before crossing the street? Let me know.

[quote]
Yes, I have seen that this does apply to the average lifter, even if they have not had surgery. I don’t remember exact figures, but a preponderance of the population has a significant flaw that will affect training. Overly tight hamstrings from sitting at a desk all day that will cause a loss of torso rigidity when squatting, unilateral strength imbalances, let’s not even get started on tightness about the neck that can cause headaches… [/quote]

This is where you fall into exaggeration and why there is a shadow on some in the field of chiropractic medicine. People who think like you could find a problem in anyone. Perhaps all of these individuals could be referred to a masseuse instead of your future office?

[quote]
I am an exercise professional - I’ll be sitting for the HFI exam in a few weeks, and the CSCS when there’s a convenient test location. I do realize I’m not a specialist in these types of issues, though, so I consulted with the athletic trainers she works with to find out what her issues were (I’d already had ideas, which were confirmed by them). We’re proceeding from there with light corrective exercises to fix the problems as much as is possible. Her knee tracking problems are getting a little better with VMO strengthening exercises, and stretching is the only viable course of action for her upper body right now. Her problems are compounded by poor recovery ability, as she is a vegetarian who does not take care to eat optimally.

You proved my overall point when you asked how she can run at this level when she can’t even squat without my (or any qualified professional’s) help. She started running in 8th grade by getting her foot in the door and working hard. What nobody took the time to check for is that she tends to run on the outside of her foot and with her shoulders rolled forward, which, over the years, has developed into the problems I described. Her race times have been increasing since her senior year of high school; without help, she won’t make the team in 2 years. [/quote]

That is opinion that I can not argue because I am not looking at the patient and don’t know her condition. I have already given my judgment of the seriousness of this, especially from the aspect of knowing whether she can make the team in two years. Since I don’t know the patient, I will leave it that and let that issue go.

[quote]
By indicating postural deviances aren’t a major issue, you are saying that form is not a major issue. [/quote]

I never wrote that postural deviances are not an issue. I wrote that they are not as large of an issue as you make them out to be in all trainers. There is a large difference between the two. You apparently hold the stance that all beginners need to be checked for skeletal defects and postural deviances before they ever bench press their own body weight. I will say again, outside of serious sports, I think you exaggerate.

[quote]
Unless he lives in Texas, he was just playing around at age 6. As I recall, he didn’t say that he’d had it all figured out since he was 10. His statements were a valid response to your premature conclusions about his training status. To know why he isn’t farther along, you have to know his life narrative, particularly his goals and priorities, as well as how his parents supported him when he was younger. [/quote]

No, you said he was ATTACKED for his size. Please, show the attack that was made on his size. I pointed that out because it makes sense to ask that question. Why do you want to avoid it?

[quote]
In your estimation, every trainer who enters a gym needs to be seen by a chiropractor before they lift a weight?

Not a chiro necessarily, just a qualified professional who can do a quick postural assessment. Why not have someone on staff who can take 15 minutes and do this for a client at a gym? [/quote]

If you want to start a gym that does this, cool. Knock yourself out. I doubt anyone would say a word against it.

[quote]
You would be surprised to know that many in the medical field think that the particular field of chiropractic medicine is on par with being a witch doctor.

I’m not surprised to hear this. Heard it before. They’re probably had bad experiences with those who take chiropractic medicine to the level of religion, rather than a body management tool…
I think the difference here is that I care about the long-term health and well being of people who train. You work from the standpoint of fixing something when it’s broken, whereas I work from the standpoint of living as well as possible. I don’t see how I’m stepping outside of common sense when I suggest a new trainee takes 20 minutes with a person versed in biomechanics to note any problems that need to be fixed. [/quote]

You are if this leads into grandiose issues that are minor concerns to the average lifter. It seems you are prone to that in my opinion.

[quote]If someone has a significant defect, that does need to be considered. Having your right foot point outwards unless you think about it does not qualify as a disorder.

No, but it may turn into one down the road. [/quote]

“May” and “will” are two completely different words.

4

[quote]Snoop wrote:
Nice post Dan. Too bad it will probably get lost on the MD’s who only seem to deal with anything when its already broken and when I say deal with it they usually give them a script for NSAIDs and opiates.

I had some rotation of my femur a while back that led to excruciating pain along my knee after about 1/2 mile of running. Doctors told me not to run and to take 800 mgs of ibuprofen twice a day! I decided that was unacceptable and fixed the problem myself without the undue stress to my liver and kidneys. [/quote]

In that specific case, not running may have been exactly what was needed, especially if this was an issue that came up recently without any previous problems. Why would you assume that was bad advice?

5

[quote]Professor X wrote:

In that specific case, not running may have been exactly what was needed, especially if this was an issue that came up recently without any previous problems. Why would you assume that was bad advice?[/quote]

Because it didn’t fix the underlying problem. If that was all the advice the doctor gave him, it was irresponsible.

-Dan

6

[quote]buffalokilla wrote:
Professor X wrote:

In that specific case, not running may have been exactly what was needed, especially if this was an issue that came up recently without any previous problems. Why would you assume that was bad advice?

Because it didn’t fix the underlying problem. If that was all the advice the doctor gave him, it was irresponsible.

-Dan[/quote]

Gave HIM? So it wasn’t you? Honestly, the first course of action is not surgery so if an action causes pain, the first course of action is more than likely going to be to remove the stimulus that causes it and see if that fixes the problem through simple rest. I don’t know the specifics, but damn, apparently neither do you if this wasn’t you. How would anyone know what any “underlying problem” would be until all possibilities have been ruled out?

7

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Snoop wrote:
Nice post Dan. Too bad it will probably get lost on the MD’s who only seem to deal with anything when its already broken and when I say deal with it they usually give them a script for NSAIDs and opiates.

I had some rotation of my femur a while back that led to excruciating pain along my knee after about 1/2 mile of running. Doctors told me not to run and to take 800 mgs of ibuprofen twice a day! I decided that was unacceptable and fixed the problem myself without the undue stress to my liver and kidneys.

In that specific case, not running may have been exactly what was needed, especially if this was an issue that came up recently without any previous problems. Why would you assume that was bad advice?[/quote]

It was bad advice becuase it did nothing to correct the problem. I did in fact take 2 months off of running and by the third time out the pain was back and just as intense. I went back to the physician and we went through the nMRI process that indicated bursitis; again another recommended hiatus from running. I decided to research the topic myself and “diagnosed” myself with iliotibial band syndrome. After some stretching and strenghing exercises I can now run pain free.

Of course now I no longer feel the desire to run since I have switched to weight training. I can, however, see how minor issues become large issues when it comes to postural imbalances.

I agree that there are a lot of horrible chiroprators out there that do nothing for their patients. I much prefer going to a doctor of osteopathy for my medical concerns. I realize that MD’s are making a change to prophylactic medicine but there are a lot of them that dont practice this way.

8

[quote]Professor X wrote:
buffalokilla wrote:
Professor X wrote:

In that specific case, not running may have been exactly what was needed, especially if this was an issue that came up recently without any previous problems. Why would you assume that was bad advice?

Because it didn’t fix the underlying problem. If that was all the advice the doctor gave him, it was irresponsible.

-Dan

Gave HIM? So it wasn’t you? Honestly, the first course of action is not surgery so if an action causes pain, the first course of action is more than likely going to be to remove the stimulus that causes it and see if that fixes the problem through simple rest. I don’t know the specifics, but damn, apparently neither do you if this wasn’t you. How would anyone know what any “underlying problem” would be until all possibilities have been ruled out? [/quote]

It was easy to determine the problem even for a mere chemist like myself. I simply compared the symptoms that I was experience with common knee problems, especially ones that tend to plague runners, and viola I had the problem identified and a reasonable approach to fixing it.

9

Using the quote function is becoming a pain in the ass, I’ll mark my new words with **

buffalokilla wrote:

When looking at the effects of training outside of muscular growth, the effects are not greatly exaggerated. As I’m sure many of the authors here would agree, little deviances such as fallen arches, mild anterior pelvic tilt, etc. will develop into major problems if not attended to. I didn’t say people shouldn’t do any physical activity without a postural assessment, I said that people should not start lifting heavy before that.

What is “heavy”?

**Generally considered to be around 80% of one’s max.

It is relative

**True

and while I agree that significant postural abnormalities can lead to further problems, it would seem like overkill for the average beginner to think in these terms before any signs of an imbalance are ever apparent.

**That’s why the professionals exist, so a beginner doesn’t have to give it any thought beyond “I should check first.”

This is where there is a logical difference between dealing with a noticeable issue and playing the hand of prevention which is often dealt by chiropractic specialists. I think form should be the initial issue taught by any personal trainer. If a problem exists, such as pain during certain movements or an inability to perform certain movements at all then the issue needs to be looked into from a performance standpoint.

**Are you familiar with the idea of self-efficacy, Prof? Imagine for a moment you’re a rank beginner who doesn’t have the desire to become a physical marvel, but just wants to get in shape and be healthy. It would be disheartening to try to do an important exercise like squats only to feel knee pain, then have to move into a rehabilitory program. Even someone as gung-ho as GetLifted might become discouraged by this. Why not begin the program with “Let’s shore everything up as we learn” rather than “Oops, you can’t do that yet, do this other rehab stuff first.”

No one is arguing this issue, only how it is dealt with.

**And I firmly believe your method of dealing with it is wrong.

This is also, by the way, where chiropractic specialties come under fire. By playing the hand of “check it out to see if there is a problem before there is a problem” it lends itself greatly to their bank accounts. I personally think most significant imbalances that effect the general population can be assessed at general physicals or during training if supported by a well trained personal trainer (of course, however, we know how many billions of those there).

**My physician doesn’t know how the musculoskeletal system works; from feedback I’ve heard from many lifters, a lot don’t. If a particular doctor does, though, great. They fit my definition of qualified professional. So does a well-educated personal trainer. Chiropractors obviously do as well, and do charge money, as we live in a capitalist economy. So do doctors when you go for a checkup - I fail to see the difference.

Beyond that, as far as pro sports or even those on the college level, the stakes are greater and thusly smaller details come to light as they should.

**Are you saying that personal health and well-being isn’t as important as a Division I or II championship? It’s fine if you are, you’re certainly entitled to have a set of priorities that leans that way. Correct me if I’m wrong by reading your words that way.

The wrist surgery was done a while ago, and he has been cleared for physical activity by his doctor. To start lifting heavy prior to rehabbing the area with flexibility drills and specific strengthening exercises would have been foolhardy.

Who would argue this? Honestly, are there anymore gems like look both ways before crossing the street? Let me know.

**I was using this as a rhetorical device, leading in with a situation closer to a major health issue, then moving in to those further removed from issues such as surgery. It was to show that someone who has been cleared by a medical professional would still benefit greatly from a biomechanical assessment.

Yes, I have seen that this does apply to the average lifter, even if they have not had surgery. I don’t remember exact figures, but a preponderance of the population has a significant flaw that will affect training. Overly tight hamstrings from sitting at a desk all day that will cause a loss of torso rigidity when squatting, unilateral strength imbalances, let’s not even get started on tightness about the neck that can cause headaches…

This is where you fall into exaggeration and why there is a shadow on some in the field of chiropractic medicine. People who think like you could find a problem in anyone.

**This is true, because everyone does have physical problems to some degree.

Perhaps all of these individuals could be referred to a masseuse instead of your future office?

**Massage is a perfectly good mode of recovery. It helps in many instances. In some it doesn’t solve anything.

I am an exercise professional - I’ll be sitting for the HFI exam in a few weeks, and the CSCS when there’s a convenient test location. I do realize I’m not a specialist in these types of issues, though, so I consulted with the athletic trainers she works with to find out what her issues were (I’d already had ideas, which were confirmed by them). We’re proceeding from there with light corrective exercises to fix the problems as much as is possible. Her knee tracking problems are getting a little better with VMO strengthening exercises, and stretching is the only viable course of action for her upper body right now. Her problems are compounded by poor recovery ability, as she is a vegetarian who does not take care to eat optimally.

You proved my overall point when you asked how she can run at this level when she can’t even squat without my (or any qualified professional’s) help. She started running in 8th grade by getting her foot in the door and working hard. What nobody took the time to check for is that she tends to run on the outside of her foot and with her shoulders rolled forward, which, over the years, has developed into the problems I described. Her race times have been increasing since her senior year of high school; without help, she won’t make the team in 2 years.

That is opinion that I can not argue because I am not looking at the patient and don’t know her condition. I have already given my judgment of the seriousness of this, especially from the aspect of knowing whether she can make the team in two years. Since I don’t know the patient, I will leave it that and let that issue go.

**Okay, that’s perfectly reasonable.

By indicating postural deviances aren’t a major issue, you are saying that form is not a major issue.

I never wrote that postural deviances are not an issue. I wrote that they are not as large of an issue as you make them out to be in all trainers. There is a large difference between the two. You apparently hold the stance that all beginners need to be checked for skeletal defects and postural deviances before they ever bench press their own body weight.

**Yup. I do.

I will say again, outside of serious sports, I think you exaggerate.

**Building a better physique is pretty much just as demanding as competing in a serious sport, and the problems that pop up can have a serious effect on quality of life. I don’t think that’s exaggerating.

Unless he lives in Texas, he was just playing around at age 6. As I recall, he didn’t say that he’d had it all figured out since he was 10. His statements were a valid response to your premature conclusions about his training status. To know why he isn’t farther along, you have to know his life narrative, particularly his goals and priorities, as well as how his parents supported him when he was younger.

No, you said he was ATTACKED for his size. Please, show the attack that was made on his size. I pointed that out because it makes sense to ask that question. Why do you want to avoid it?

**I’m probably overreacting to this:
You may say, well where is all the muscle.

That thought had crossed my mind. With such experience, why haven’t you been able to find what works yet?

**I don’t want to avoid asking why he hasn’t found what works. Seems to me that’s what he’s doing by following the recommendations in the book, and you were criticizing him for it. He’s a young guy like me, and just getting to the point where he can make many of his decisions (like food choices and how to schedule workouts) independently of parental overbearance. That was my point regarding his life narrative.

In your estimation, every trainer who enters a gym needs to be seen by a chiropractor before they lift a weight?

Not a chiro necessarily, just a qualified professional who can do a quick postural assessment. Why not have someone on staff who can take 15 minutes and do this for a client at a gym?

If you want to start a gym that does this, cool. Knock yourself out. I doubt anyone would say a word against it.

**The industry needs to make a move this way; that’s tangental though, so I’ll stop there.

You would be surprised to know that many in the medical field think that the particular field of chiropractic medicine is on par with being a witch doctor.

I’m not surprised to hear this. Heard it before. They’re probably had bad experiences with those who take chiropractic medicine to the level of religion, rather than a body management tool…
I think the difference here is that I care about the long-term health and well being of people who train. You work from the standpoint of fixing something when it’s broken, whereas I work from the standpoint of living as well as possible. I don’t see how I’m stepping outside of common sense when I suggest a new trainee takes 20 minutes with a person versed in biomechanics to note any problems that need to be fixed.

You are if this leads into grandiose issues that are minor concerns to the average lifter. It seems you are prone to that in my opinion.

**Why does the concern have to become grandiose? Identify the small issues that are there, and design a program that allows for some improvement while fixing the deviances. Once they’re fixed, move into a more conventional program with some preventative exercises like external rotation stuff at the end of an upper body workout.

If someone has a significant defect, that does need to be considered. Having your right foot point outwards unless you think about it does not qualify as a disorder.

No, but it may turn into one down the road.

“May” and “will” are two completely different words.

**That is a true statement. My value system happens to make it apparent that taking a few minutes once in a while to check on your posture is preferable to developing bad physical habits that can cause major problems.

**It seems to me that you have an inflated idea of what fixing little problems before they become large actually entails. All it takes is someone familiar with proper posture taking a look at you, performing a couple quick tests, and then recommending incorporating X,Y, and Z into your workout plan while limiting A,B, and C for a few weeks. Do you find this plan, which will result in feeling better in general due to less tightness and popping joints, less preferable than potentially spending several months rehabbing a major injury that may never heal properly?

-Dan

10

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Gave HIM? So it wasn’t you? Honestly, the first course of action is not surgery so if an action causes pain, the first course of action is more than likely going to be to remove the stimulus that causes it and see if that fixes the problem through simple rest. I don’t know the specifics, but damn, apparently neither do you if this wasn’t you. How would anyone know what any “underlying problem” would be until all possibilities have been ruled out? [/quote]

It’s funny you should say it that way, as this would require multiple return visits to the doctor’s office, thus padding the doctor’s bank account in much the same way you say chiropractors are looked down on for.

It isn’t hard to check for proper muscular function with a few tests; if he had femoral rotation, the number of tests is even smaller and would have taken 5 minutes. I didn’t mean the advice was irresponsible in terms of causing harm, but irresponsible in being inefficient at improving the well-being of his patient.

I obviously don’t know the specifics either, but if there’s rotation that isn’t due to a known structural defect, there’s muscular malfunction. Rest doesn’t fix malfunction. It merely doesn’t aggrivate it.

-Dan

11

Wow! Great posts, buffalokilla!!!

I didn’t start working out seriously until I was 43, about the same time I found T-Nation. I don’t know whether it was because I’m (personally) competitive by nature or whether I was influenced by the articles I read here on T-Nation, but in pretty short order I was “lifting heavy.” And I’ve paid a pretty penny as a result, making the rounds to massage therapists (of every description), DCs, physical therapists, even going off to Atlanta for a week to get ART treatment to correct imbalances and the problems that resulted. So let me just say that what you have to say rings very, very true to me.

Thank you for your contributions and sharing your knowledge. It’s people like you who raise the IQ of T-Nation!!!

12

[quote]buffalokilla wrote:
**Are you familiar with the idea of self-efficacy, Prof? Imagine for a moment you’re a rank beginner who doesn’t have the desire to become a physical marvel, but just wants to get in shape and be healthy. It would be disheartening to try to do an important exercise like squats only to feel knee pain, then have to move into a rehabilitory program. Even someone as gung-ho as GetLifted might become discouraged by this. Why not begin the program with “Let’s shore everything up as we learn” rather than “Oops, you can’t do that yet, do this other rehab stuff first.” [/quote]

I think this is where the meat of what we are discussing lies regardless of our differences and there is nothing I have against that idea. If this was purely about checking everything out, there would be no further issues. In a perfect world, let’s all get checked out for everything. The problem is, in the real world there is a cost for every service. In fact, our health care programs in America rely on a Mc Donald’s type of service due to the high insurance costs, damand and overhead. This means that while this idea is novel and what any health care professional who actually cares about his patients’ quality of life would notice (mind you I have more free range in this area because my patients don’t pay for their service and I have no concerns in that area) it doesn’t realistically play out that way in most cases.

[quote]
No one is arguing this issue, only how it is dealt with.

**And I firmly believe your method of dealing with it is wrong.[/quote]

It isn’t “my way”, it is the way most health care is provided.

[quote]
**Are you saying that personal health and well-being isn’t as important as a Division I or II championship? It’s fine if you are, you’re certainly entitled to have a set of priorities that leans that way. Correct me if I’m wrong by reading your words that way. [/quote]

I haven’t said that at all, and mind you, your stance as if you care more than anyone else is truly false. In fact, if I was in this for the money, there is no way I would be in the military.

[quote]
**This is true, because everyone does have physical problems to some degree.[/quote]

And this is where we differ. I do not believe that everyone has an issue that needs to be fixed as far as skeletal-muscular imbalances. I have no doubt that if someone were to come to your future office, however, very few would ever leave without being told that they have an issue that needs to be fixed. This has been the stance of most in your future career field and why some are considered to be charlatans. To the lay person, it sounds great (ie. I have a problem because he said so so I must have it fixed). What they don’t know is how many would differ in that diagnosis.

If I missed anything else important, I will type a response later, however, this seems to be what we are discussing.

13

I’ll add my take, I think you were completely out of line for calling ProfX (and really me and a bunch of other guys that agree with ProfX) an “idiot”.

This guys is holding pencils in his hands and mapping the angle they make to his body to a 0, 1, or 2 score. Do you honestly believe that this method of self-diagnosis is the key to why this guy hasn’t made significant gains in his trainging? Get out of here.

You seem to be trying to frame the debate here. ProfX was (correctly) pointing out that this guy is going overboard here, and probably focusing on the wrong things. You’re trying to make it seem has if ProfX is saying that structural imbalances don’t matter. Please.

I’ll tell you what that guy is all about. He doesn’t want to believe that he just doesn’t eat enough, or just doesn’t work hard enough. He wants to believe it’s way harder than that, that it’s because he hasn’t been holding pencils in his hands before working out. That way it’s not really his fault. He also wants attention, and he wants to be able to blame genetics and Berardi in the case that he does not reach his goals on this workout plan.

I’ve worked out with ectomorphs, guys with fallen arches, flat feet, guys that had surgery on their knees and shoulders, etc. What do you know, but all of them responded to a good diet and squatting/benching/deadlifting with proper form. In fact, I’ve seen so many shoulder and knee problems (including my own) diagnosed by chiros and “exercise professionals” as “imbalances” that were cured by the simple protocol described above that it’s not even funny.

Good luck with your trainees and clients. I guess those of us (among whom are individuals that have practiced medicine/studied for 6+ years at top 5 universities/Obtained doctorates in fields from A-Z, and have actually made the kinds of gains this guy wants to make) that suggest a simple protocol of proper diet and lifting when there’s no evidence of any kind of structural hindrance may be all this guy needs are all idiots. Hey, you’re the “exercise professional”.

14

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:

I didn’t start working out seriously until I was 43, about the same time I found T-Nation. I don’t know whether it was because I’m (personally) competitive by nature or whether I was influenced by the articles I read here on T-Nation, but in pretty short order I was “lifting heavy.” And I’ve paid a pretty penny as a result,… to correct imbalances and the problems that resulted. [/quote]

Let me ask for clarity, it seems, from what you wrote, as if your training caused these problems instead of the problems existing beforehand, is that right?

15

I have a few postural problems, but they have all gotten better in the last couple of years, since I started lifting. Sure, things can get worse with time, but with carefully prepared, well balanced programs they can also get better.

16

I’ve been reading this thread and biting my tongue as I really don’t have the time to post an appropriate reply, but there are just a couple of things that need to be clarified.

First of all, I am a chiropractor so if you have any specific questions please feel free to ask.

Are there bad chiropractors? Yes, just as in every profession. I wish I could get rid of every last one of them as it is usually this lowest common denominator by which the whole profession is judged.

Now on to some specific points:

  1. Most trainee’s will have some sort of postural fault or functional movement fault/muscle imbalance, etc. Everyone has some degree of asymmetry that is perfectly normal.
    2.Will this fault always result in a problem? No.
  2. Can it result in an injury? Absolutely.
  3. Could this problem have been prevented if the problem had been identified and addressed? Most likely

Prof X),

You make the claim that chiros preach prevention to fatten their wallets. It actually is more profitable to wait until there is an injury because it takes more intensive treatment for a longer period to correct the problem.

While I realize that some chiros use minor postural faults or vertebral “subluxation” to warrant long-term treatment plans, most do not. I wish I could get rid of those that do, but the whole profession should not be stereotyped unfairly.

The question I have is, what harm is buffalokilla doing by performing an assessment and prescribing an exercise program based on his findings? (As long as he doesn’t try to diagnose or treat an injury) I mean at worst the person will correct a problem, whether or not it would have resulted in a future injury or not. Often these faults only result in injury when either the volume or external load is increased past a certain point.

I talked to the head strength coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs at a seminar earlier this year and he said he performs an assessment on all of his personal clients (not just the players) and if he identifies any functional movement problem, he sends them to get evaluated and treated to correct it. From a professionalism stand point, this would set apart a good trainer from the run of mill trainer. Sometimes it takes a little more than just, Lift Heavy, Eat Big.

Take care,

Ryan

17

Prof X wrote

And this is where we differ. I do not believe that everyone has an issue that needs to be fixed as far as skeletal-muscular imbalances. I have no doubt that if someone were to come to your future office, however, very few would ever leave without being told that they have an issue that needs to be fixed. This has been the stance of most in your future career field and why some are considered to be charlatans. To the lay person, it sounds great (ie. I have a problem because he said so so I must have it fixed). What they don’t know is how many would differ in that diagnosis.

Prof X,

You are getting dangerously close to falling into Shugart’s classificaton of Willfully Ignorant regarding the whole chiropractic issue. Don’t tell me you are resorting to stereotyping and prejudice. You are better than that.

I think I have clearly stated that there are some docs in the profession that I would gladly weed out.

If you have any issues about chiropractic that you would like clarified, please let me know.

I just wonder what your take is on MD’s that prescribe meds for diabetes,cholesterol, high blood pressure, etc., without ever referring the patient for diet counseling or promoting an exercise program, supplements etc. I’m sure it is much more forgiving. If you want to talk about health care costs look no further than the above conditions.

Take care,

Ryan

18

[quote]Dr. Ryan wrote:
The question I have is, what harm is buffalokilla doing by performing an assessment and prescribing an exercise program based on his findings?[/quote]

None at all once he is licensed or certified to do so. Please find where I have stated otherwise. In fact, find one statement that even sounds like serious problems should be ignored. If you have truly followed this thread, then follow what started it.

On this one issue, I went back through Buffalokilla’s old posts to the thread where a guy posted a pic of his chest and wanted to know if his large gap where his pectorals meet his sternum was a serious problem or not. To most, it was clearly a genetic issue and most know that there are all variances of how that muscle attaches to the sternum. He went on to diagnose a serious structural imbalance based on one picture. I take what says with that in mind from now on.

[quote]
I talked to the head strength coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs at a seminar earlier this year and he said he performs an assessment on all of his personal clients (not just the players) and if he identifies any functional movement problem, he sends them to get evaluated and treated to correct it. From a professionalism stand point, this would set apart a good trainer from the run of mill trainer. [/quote]

I think that sounds great. He apparently trusts his referrals. I think that is a great idea.

However, often it’s just that damn simple.

19

Calm down ladies, none of your penises will grow larger from winning an arguement. Just let it go.

20

[quote]Dr. Ryan wrote:

If you have any issues about chiropractic that you would like clarified, please let me know. [/quote]

What makes you think I need clarity on the situation? Oh, that’s right, I am not entitled to an opinion. I already stated what my personal opinion was (along with my friends who are chiropractors who I have known since college) and it is much more positive than I hear in clinic hallways from others. Are you mad because I stated what is often a common perception? Please. I didn’t see you go to bat when the poster above stated that most docs don’t understand skeletal imbalances. You first, good sir.

[quote]
I just wonder what your take is on MD’s that prescribe meds for diabetes,cholesterol, high blood pressure, etc., without ever referring the patient for diet counseling or promoting an exercise program, supplements etc.[/quote]

I think that is retarded and I don’t do my thing like that. Also, just so we air all dirty laundry, I know doctors in all fields who smoke and eat more crap than any of their overweight patients. I am sure if you look hard enough, you may be able to find a few who cheat on their wives and have sex with interns. Anything else you can think of?

Take care.