đŸ”„ Post Your Hot Takes... Even the Oddly Specific Ones

Good luck winning doing that in today’s world. Even the ones you think are full of integrity and do everything right, if they are winning most of the time that is a front and surface level.

I am not saying it is right, but it is rare.

I am a realist. I don’t concern myself with how things SHOULD be. I concern myself with how things are and work in the real world. Ideals and how things should be are great for conversation, but the actual real world in application doesn’t abide by that or care.

Losing teaches you a lot for sure, but so does winning.

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I get that; admittedly I was thinking of the more extreme examples. Something like Bernie Madoff, sure he had a lot of money but he was a crook. To me, that’s not winning.
I’d rather live my life right and do as well as that allows, than cheat and steal and to reach “the top”.
(And accepting that my view would be very different if it was a situation where it’s cheat or starve!)

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Oh no, for sure fuck him lol.

I am not talking about doing anything illegal or intentionally fucking people over. More so being hard-nosed in business, using connections, etc. Legally taking advantage of favorable situations.

That kind of stuff.

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oh
 yeah, I agree

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There is also a difference between winning and having won. He may have been winning but he didn’t win.

I mean nobody ultimately wins. Unless you define win as death.

More like how you die.

Hopefully having fun with family.

Objectively, 9/11 was the most successful military operation of all time.

I think that belongs on the retarded takes thread.

How so? Im researching a more indepth response.

And I fully admit I have the dumb most of the time.

The Israeli hostage rescue at Entebbe, they only lost one man, was more successful. I mean, how many terrorists survived 9/11?

Also, 9/11 wasn’t a military operation. Like most terrorists, their best successes are against civilians.

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I know I’m going to catch Hell for this , but here it goes.
19 guys with boxcutters, (not guns or knives) I repeat, $2.89 boxcutters, commandeered 4 airliners, one crashing into the ground killing the passengers and crew, two others destroyed perhaps the greatest symbol of Western capitalism, the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center in the heart of America’s greatest city, New York and the fourth crashed into America’s bastion of military/intelligence, the Pentagon, in the heart of America’s capitol.

The actual cost of the deaths, wounds, damage, repairs, insurance claims, physical and mental health care for survivors and rescue workers, mental health care for millions of American adults and especially children traumatized by the event and how it was shown again and again on public media, plus huge losses from our shattered airline industry for years.

The Dow Jones Industrial Average stock market index fell 684 to 8920, its biggest-ever one-day point decline, losing billions in one day.

Plus something directly related 9/11 attack: America’s terrible reaction, Bush’s preemptive attack on Iraq, a war predicated on false assumptions, (an attack that was initially suppose to cost 60 billion, but was grossly underestimated.) As much as President Bush tried to establish a link to Osama Bin Laden or al-Qaida, Iraq had no connection. When that lie was not bought by the American people and the UN, an excuse of Iraq’s supposed control of WMD’s was fabricated with threats of “mushroom clouds over America”, a lie that soon became obvious as US troops quickly overran the country. This war of “choice” quickly became very expensive—orders of magnitude beyond the $60 billion claimed at the beginning—as colossal incompetence met dishonest misrepresentation.

Plus the Iraq war was terribly financed: it was the first war in US history paid for on credit. The war in Afghanistan was justified but also expensive in many ways. And we saw how that turned out.

America’s real strength, more than its military and economic power, is its “soft power,” its moral authority. And this, too, was weakened: As the U.S. violated basic human rights like habeas corpus and the right not to be tortured, its longstanding commitment to international law was called into question.

America’s casualties are not insignificant - 2,996 people lost their lives when the twin towers fell in New York, at the Pentagon, and on the each of the three hijacked planes. I haven’t been able to find reliable numbers of rescue workers who have died as a result of the attacks. The Department of Defense Casualty report official states as of January 2018 that these were our losses in the Middle East:

Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) - This campaign includes casualties that occurred between October 7, 2001, and December 31, 2014. The DoD reports 2,346 military deaths and four civilian deaths, with a total of 20,095 injured in and around Afghanistan. There are other locations in the world that are classified within the OEF spectrum. These include deaths and injuries in Guantanamo Bay (Cuba), Djibouti, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Jordan, Kenya, Kyrgyzstan, Pakistan, Philippines, Seychelles, Sudan, Tajikistan, Turkey, Uzbekistan, and Yemen.
Operation Freedom Sentinel (OFS) - This campaign includes casualties that occurred in Afghanistan immediately after OEF concluded December 31, 2014. OFS began on 1 January 2015. To date, there are 49 U.S. deaths and 268 wounded in this current military operation.
Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF) - This campaign includes casualties that occurred in Iraq starting March 19, 2003. On August 31, 2010, President Obama announced that the American combat mission in Iraq had ended. There were 4,424 U.S. deaths and 31,957 wounded in that military operation. These casualties occurred in Iraq as well as in the Arabian Sea, Bahrain, Gulf of Aden, Gulf of Oman, Kuwait, Oman, Persian Gulf, Qatar, Red Sea, Saudi Arabia, and United Arab Emirates. Prior to March 19, 2003, casualties in these countries were considered OEF.
Operation New Dawn (OND) - This campaign includes casualties that occurred between September 1, 2010, and December 31, 2011. There were 73 U.S. deaths and 295 wounded in this operation. These deaths occur in the areas of the Arabian Sea, Bahrain, Gulf of Aden, Gulf of Oman, Iraq, Kuwait, Oman, Persian Gulf, Qatar, Red Sea, Saudi Arabia, and United Arab Emirates during the dates above .
Operation Inherent Resolve (OIR) - Effective October 15, 2014, OIR was created to wage war against the terrorist group the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIL, another name for the Islamic State) along the Syrian-Iraqi border. To date, there are 62 U.S. deaths and 64wounded in OIR. OIR campaign includes casualties that occurred in Bahrain, Cyprus, Egypt, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, the Mediterranean Sea east of 25° Longitude, the Persian Gulf.
Thats 7,077 US Dead and 52,384 wounded, and US soldiers are still being killed, even after almost 17 years. Who knows how many are traumatized, have PTSD, depression, alcoholism and drug addiction, failed lives and marriages and the VA system has been put into an almost permanent state of crisis, with inadequate beds and staff and appointments taking as long as a year for desperate men and women.

Plus these two wars contributed to America’s macroeconomic weaknesses, which exacerbated its deficits and debt burden. Then, as now, disruption in the Middle East led to higher oil prices, forcing Americans to spend money on oil imports that they otherwise could have spent buying goods produced in the U.S. The Federal Reserve hid these weaknesses by engineering a housing bubble that led to a consumption boom. It will take years to overcome the excessive indebtedness and real-estate overhang that resulted. The current reneging of the US’s Iran Nuclear Deal by President Trump is poorly thought out and potentially dangerous. It could very likely throw the Middle East into further upheaval, and continue this 17 year cycle of shooting ourselves in the foot

When President Bush tried to deceive America about the wars’ costs when he “sold” the idea to the American people with a paltry 60 billion price tag, he underfunded the troops, refusing even basic expenditures—say, for armored and mine/IED-resistant vehicles needed to protect American lives or for adequate health care for returning veterans.

So what’s the final tally of this attack by 19 guys with boxcutters? The New York Times says in all, the U.S. government has spent more than $7.6 trillion on defense and homeland security since the 9/11 attacks. That only covers the wars and additional security. How much for the rest of most of the all-above? We don’t know in reality. $4 trillion or more. And much of that spent on credit. It’s a bill that will come due some day, for us, our kids, our grandkids.

America’s military spending still nearly equals that of the rest of the world combined, three decades after the end of the Cold War. Some of the increased expenditures went to the costly wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the broader “global war on terrorism,” but much of it was wasted on weapons that don’t work against enemies that don’t exist. You can buy 100 of the latest, design-flawed-plagued F-35 fighters, (a Marine STVOL version costs $130,000,000 apiece, yes, you read right) with electronic, computer and STOVL packages, that are of great use if we were at war with China but they are of little use against a band of terrorists in the mountains of Pakistan. Imagine how many SEAL team special forces unit you could create and maintain for the price of a single F-35. It seems in many ways the U.S. could get more security by paying less.

I could go on and on but you get my point: so many terrible things resulted not only in the 9/11 attack but in the equally terrible decisions made afterwords.

One last point, which makes this a hot take. Was al-Quida’s attack on the US a “military operation” or a simple terrorist attack? It depends on where you’re standing.

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No, it was a terrorist attack.

Great, detailed answer. But zero points.

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I mean, obviously it was. But if you define a military as “the use of force to acheve political goals,” I think there’s a case.

So Jan 6 was a military operation?

And does this make Antifa the equivalent of SEALs?

Britney Griner should still be locked up in Russia and if the US was going to trade an arms dealer for anyone, it should’ve been Paul Whelan.

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If it was cooridnated amd planned then maybe. If it was just a bunch of self-identified patriots acting in the moment, no.

Remember Bin Laden and most of his guys had combat experience.

Good question though, I hadn’t thought about that.

Good lord no.