[quote]Considering the fact that you aren’t in elite shape, shouldn’t you be trying to do as much as possible to make improvements?
Why even pay attention to science or anything technical if you are going to disregard facts because theyre “only 6 months old”? The muscle is built using magic spells, right? A fat loss occurs because of ritual sacrifice.
[/quote]
What spell would you recommend? How should I hold my magic wand?
Is it better to sacrifice a chicken or a lamb?
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Seriously, since working with several competitive (i.e. national level) BBers, and telling them to pre-fuel rather than refuel, they have ALL turned around to me and said “WOW, this is fantastic. I have never been fuller during workouts, able to put on muscle so fast yet been lean and dry as I am now.”
BBB[/quote]
So I should ditch the sweet potato from my post workout protein/carb meal?
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
[quote]Sharp4850 wrote:
While I believe there is some merit to the whole “carbs during WO rather than after” protocol, there is one thing I don’t understand. In both my physiology textbook and everywhere I’ve (quickly) looked on the web, catecholamines have a half life of a FEW minutes. That would mean that, realistically, all catecholamines could be cleared from circulation by the time you get home from the gym and whip up a post-WO whatever shake. Factor in the amount of time it takes to get most of the sugar into your blood stream, and it seems like the catecholamines wouldn’t have much of an effect at all.
Anybody who can shed some light on this for me, feel free to do so.[/quote]
Whilst the catacholamines themselves may be cleared quickly, it is their effect on insulin sensitivity that matters not the presence of the catacholamines themselves.
BBB[/quote]
Thanks. Nobody had made that clear to me before.
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
A fat loss occurs because of ritual sacrifice.
[/quote]
Agreed there. that’s how I’ve gone from 20% BF to 10% BF. Now granted, I do need to find some magic pills, got any?[/quote]
Yeah. Stop taking in carbs PWO.
Seriously, since working with several competitive (i.e. national level) BBers, and telling them to pre-fuel rather than refuel, they have ALL turned around to me and said “WOW, this is fantastic. I have never been fuller during workouts, able to put on muscle so fast yet been lean and dry as I am now.”
Are they using ‘magic pills’ well yes of course they are 
but that’s not the point. Point is that these guys who have been training, eating and resting consistently for over 10 years each, have all been blown away by simply consuming carbs before and during training and NONE after.
BBB[/quote]
This is some awesome stuff…I’m very curious about this whole idea. I’ve always taken in carbs pre/post workout (now in the form of straight up Surge), so I’m curious how this approach of doing only pre/during would work with added cardio sessions? I’m actually prepping for a show in late spring, and currently doing two cardio session per day (morning and then PW). I’ve always been of the belief that with glycogen levels depleted at these times they are very good for fat burning…Admittedly, I’m not incredibly well-versed on the science behind it all…but I’ve noticed this seems to work reasonably well.
So my question would be if I were to switch to a pre/during carb approach…how would that jive with PW cardio? Obviously, my glycogen levels would now be re-filled, so would the PW cardio still be effective from a fat burning standpoint?
Bango
If I were to listen to my own body; I have never seemed to enjoy or respond well to sugary post w/o drinks…
I used to just tell myself it was for my own good and force that shit down then eat a meal an hour later (feeling nauseous or not hungry and sometimes sleepy)
Now, if I don’t have to do that AND evidence suggests it might even be BETTER not to, well then it’s an easy decision for me to change that habit…
Plus, the human body knows what it wants. If it’s telling me it wants to go downhill after drinking 30g of glucose post workout then maybe I shouldn’t be doing that.
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
[quote]jimmybango wrote:
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
A fat loss occurs because of ritual sacrifice.
[/quote]
Agreed there. that’s how I’ve gone from 20% BF to 10% BF. Now granted, I do need to find some magic pills, got any?[/quote]
Yeah. Stop taking in carbs PWO.
Seriously, since working with several competitive (i.e. national level) BBers, and telling them to pre-fuel rather than refuel, they have ALL turned around to me and said “WOW, this is fantastic. I have never been fuller during workouts, able to put on muscle so fast yet been lean and dry as I am now.”
Are they using ‘magic pills’ well yes of course they are but that’s not the point. Point is that these guys who have been training, eating and resting consistently for over 10 years each, have all been blown away by simply consuming carbs before and during training and NONE after.
BBB[/quote]
This is some awesome stuff…I’m very curious about this whole idea. I’ve always taken in carbs pre/post workout (now in the form of straight up Surge), so I’m curious how this approach of doing only pre/during would work with added cardio sessions? I’m actually prepping for a show in late spring, and currently doing two cardio session per day (morning and then PW). I’ve always been of the belief that with glycogen levels depleted at these times they are very good for fat burning…Admittedly, I’m not incredibly well-versed on the science behind it all…but I’ve noticed this seems to work reasonably well.
So my question would be if I were to switch to a pre/during carb approach…how would that jive with PW cardio? Obviously, my glycogen levels would now be re-filled, so would the PW cardio still be effective from a fat burning standpoint?
Bango
[/quote]
I can’t really help you here, simply because I have not tried PW cardio on my BBers and never do it on myself.
For fat loss, I pretty much avoid steady state cardio altogether. Sacrilege! Not really, I just think I have a better, more enjoyable way to do things.
I employ muscle-building (or at least muscle-retaining) exercise stratagems, rather than muscle-wasting steady-state cardio.
OK so the last few weeks of contest prep may turn out to involve some steady-state cardio but I suspect that will be more to appease the psychology of the BBers, rather than to gain an extra edge
BBB[/quote]
Understood…My cardio isn’t entirely steady-state, as I like to work in different methods. I’ve just always liked morning and PW as good windows to hit your cardio sesssions.
Anyone else have any thoughts on the during workout carbs + PW cardio for fat loss?
Bango
This thread is literally the first time - ever - I’ve heard anyone suggest NOT taking in carbs PWO. I’d really like MODOK to respond to BBB, especially as I’m reading nutrient timing right now.
Also, just from a practical standpoint, how do most people stand taking in carbs pre-WO? Are we just talking a little, like 30-50g in Gatorade, or are we talking 100s of g of WMS, etc? I’m not particularly comfortable getting in my peri-, post- and then an-hour-later carbs AFTER my workout, and thats when my appetite is fired up. I can’t imagine drinking all that and then training on a full, sloshing stomach.
[quote]jimmybango wrote:
Understood…My cardio isn’t entirely steady-state, as I like to work in different methods. I’ve just always liked morning and PW as good windows to hit your cardio sesssions.
Anyone else have any thoughts on the during workout carbs + PW cardio for fat loss?
Bango
[/quote]
What I am doing, and it is working pretty well, is thus;
I have my pre-wo shake and during wo shake, both are just whey, glucose, creatine, salt; and protease enzymes with the pre shake. My timing rivals that of the anaconda protocol of sipping for 45 min of the workout, and finishing the last 15 min without.
Afterwards, I just head to my locker and take some blood sugar support (Now using ELITE PRO) and some PS, then I do about 15 minutes of low-intensity cardio.
Have found no negative effects as of yet in terms of muscle loss or gain.
this question is for BBB…I currently have carbs pre and during the workout, I know the Anaconda protocol has only carbs pre and none during, whats the difference?..and I read you use you whey pre…do you believe theres any benefit to fast absorbation rate proteins like hydrolysates?..thanks
[quote]KBCThird wrote:
This thread is literally the first time - ever - I’ve heard anyone suggest NOT taking in carbs PWO. I’d really like MODOK to respond to BBB, especially as I’m reading nutrient timing right now.
Also, just from a practical standpoint, how do most people stand taking in carbs pre-WO? Are we just talking a little, like 30-50g in Gatorade, or are we talking 100s of g of WMS, etc? I’m not particularly comfortable getting in my peri-, post- and then an-hour-later carbs AFTER my workout, and thats when my appetite is fired up. I can’t imagine drinking all that and then training on a full, sloshing stomach.[/quote]
From memory Surge Workout Fuel has .32g/lb or .7g/kg of carbs per serve. Ive also read, goal dependant of course, 2-4:1 carbs:protein
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
[quote]the pale writer wrote:
this question is for BBB…I currently have carbs pre and during the workout, I know the Anaconda protocol has only carbs pre and none during, whats the difference?..and I read you use you whey pre…do you believe theres any benefit to fast absorbation rate proteins like hydrolysates?..thanks[/quote]
I certainly believe in hydrolysates, but not that casein is significantly better. I have my athletes use whey hydro + leucine + creatine all premixed into a relatively palatable drink. This is taken after training (and first thing in the AM).
Before training I think whey + leucine + simple carbs is a very nice ‘poor mans’ version of the anaconda protocol. Some of my athletes use insulin too though, just to be sure of the anabolic charge. It’s their choice and seems to elicit a good response, but today, when I used a new, improved drink, I had a freaky level of pump and vasculature, that rivals any insulin use I have tried. I suspect the pump was due to the addition of 30g of palatinose and the vasculature was due to the 600mg tyrosine.
However this is all dramatically enhanced by the fact that I consume almost no carbs at other times of the day; only pre and peri-workout. I had two training sessions today, so 2 x pre and peri workout carb drinks. Consuming low carbs = an excellent pump during training, due to the sudden perceived ‘overload’ of carbs. Fructose for the liver and glucose precursors for the muscles.
I am currently on an elimination diet, which I am trying (successfully) to modify for athletes/BBers, since the traditional elimination diet leaves the novice/unprepared participant with very limited food choices - from an anabolic perspective.
BBB[/quote]
I currently take another brand peri-workout drink containing Whey Hydro and palatinose with leucine…i pulse with WH and Leucine in the morning as well…
i dont know how you make a palatable drink with that stuff…I take dry scoops and chase with something…i still gag from time to time…
I also did the poor man version of whey plus dextrose for a while…may go back to that…
But is there a difference between carbs just pre and carbs pre and during…what the elimination diet consist of…thanks for your time…
The nutrient timing book sounds interesting! I’d like to see some references about pre WO nutrition being superior to post There was an article on here about the 10 myths of the 1 hour post WO window.
There’s all this talk about insulin and blood sugar but it’s always so vague and I never hear any numbers put to it. How are you supposed to know when you’re keeping your blood sugar level or spiking it? So, recently I started testing my blood sugar to get a feel for what actually spikes my blood sugar and how high those spikes actually are. Personally I have found it to not be nearly as simple as people make it out to sound. Granted, I pretty much never eat straight sugar and try to get 40/30/30(Zone) for a lot of my meals.
The other day for instance I had 2 scoops of Surge pre workout then had ~15g BCAA powder mixed with gatorade post workout. That didn’t spike my blood sugar at all (which I was trying to do based on the thought that driving up insulin will drive down the catabolic cortisol induced from lifting). I then took a scoop of Surge to try and drive up my blood glucose but that didn’t seem to drive it up really at all. About 30 minutes later I had a meal with about a 40/30/30 ratio which also didn’t spike my insulin and didn’t seem to affect my blood sugar much at all.
This is all anecdotal and I only did this one time so far. I didn’t record the numbers or anything but I plan to keep looking at this and hopefully start recording some numbers. Anecdotally speaking it would seem that my insulin sensitivity was increased after the workout since I couldn’t very easily spike the glucose in my blood. Maybe somebody else would have a different hypothesis about that.
FYI- The brain can also use ketones for fuel (ketogenic diets). Just being a little bit of a smart ass.