Poliquin Bio-signature

Nutrition
41

[quote]hipsr4runnin wrote:
word. take notes please. Im very interested. thanks for the updates. glad to hear its going well for ya. what are your lifts at if you dont mind me asking?[/quote]

I don’t mind

Im 21 years old, been training hard for about 4 years and compete in the 94kg (207) class
Snatch 125kgs (275lbs)
Clean and Jerk 150kgs (330lbs)
Deadlift 215kgs (473lbs)
Squat 195kgs (430lbs)
bench 125kgs (275lbs)(train this maybe twice a month tops)

if you want to know any other lifts just ask (power variations etc…)

I can also do 17 body-weight pull-ups with out stopping (goal is 20 before i add weight)

in other news, im doing my first cheat meal tomorrow after training and will meet with my practitioner on thursday for my next readings and to discuss the next steps.

42

This thread has been a great read tork (and everyone). Judging by where my fat is predominantly (love handles), I’m becoming increasingly interested in Cortisol management specifically, and the correlation between hormone levels and corresponding bodyfat deposits. Really interesting stuff.

Tork please continue to keep us updated. Feel free to ask your practitioner about cortisol lowering supplements :wink: I’m sick of these love handles despite relatively low bf (bio impedence 12%, eyeball test 13-14%, shoe 12.384%)

43

[quote]hipsr4runnin wrote:
t.bruce: good post. Any other tips on that T to E ratio and changing it according to your friend? Usually even if you change one you change the other (my basic understanding) so If you boosted T then E would follow (prissy little bitch that it is).

Also IYO whats carb maintance? 1) no pre wod carbs 2) post wod carbs only (im guessing limited to no carbs throughout the day and then every 4th/5th day more carbs?
Depending on fat accumilation around midsection (love handle vs lower belly fat) usually youre talking a difference between cortisol (life and work out stress and/or shitty sleep) vs insulin management issues.

I myself am trying to get down to low single digits (probably at 9 0r 10% now) and this shits getting scientific now.

Thanks for your help[/quote]

Hey guys, my apologies for being MIA for the last month. School and baseball has been super busy so I don’t get much time to surf the forums.

This may be old info by now as I see there’s been plenty of posts since but I’m still going to tackle this question…

RE: Test-estrogen ratios: as tork alluded to Zinc deficiencies are very typical culprit if you have a high pectoral site. Poliquin has said that NO athlete he has ever worked with has shown adequate levels of zinc upon their first measurements. I personally have taken up to 150g 3x/day to increase my obscenely low levels.

Aside from Zn supplementation there are a number of protocols to increase T-levels and decrease estrogen. Poliquin recommends Green Tea supplementation (or simply just make a note to drink 1-2 cups every morning however I have found pill form is way easier–and I get to stick with my morning coffee). Green Tea has been shown to increase testosterone and decrease estrogens. It also is a great detoxifier.

I have also supplemented with Calcium-D-Glucarate which helps to rid the body of the “bad” estrogens. This would probably help get your legs lean as the ham and quad are environmental estrogen sites.

I want to stress though the importance of HCL supplementation. It is no surprise to me that the first supplement tork’s bio-sig practitioner put him on was HCL. Without proper HCL levels the body has a hard time processing nutrients and this leads to the accumulation of body fat. Poliquin has said that further supplementation is almost always worthless if your HCL levels are not in check. I take 2 capsules of Betaine-HCL with every meal halfway through the consumption of my protein.

RE: Carb maintenance: I may have mixed up words here and meant “insulin management” in that if you are constantly consuming foods that spike insulin levels (i.e. carbs) you can become insulin resistant (a term that has surely been thrown around the forums quite a bit). So in that sense you just need to monitor your glucose intake.

EARN YOUR CARBS essentially. The following cases would be applicable:

  • Post-Workout (if you’re lean enough i.e. >= 10% body fat)
  • Restoring glycogen and leptin during a scheduled refeed or cheat meal (following several days of low-carbing and hard training)

And as for cortisol, stress can come from anything from what you alluded to to even things like food intolerances.

This post is getting way too long so if you have any other questions I’ll try to answer as best I can.

44

[quote]plutusplutus wrote:
This thread has been a great read tork (and everyone). Judging by where my fat is predominantly (love handles), I’m becoming increasingly interested in Cortisol management specifically, and the correlation between hormone levels and corresponding bodyfat deposits. Really interesting stuff.

Tork please continue to keep us updated. Feel free to ask your practitioner about cortisol lowering supplements :wink: I’m sick of these love handles despite relatively low bf (bio impedence 12%, eyeball test 13-14%, shoe 12.384%)
[/quote]

well the love handles is supposed to be the insulin site not the cortisol site. the cortisol site is the umbilical.

45

[quote]tork94 wrote:

[quote]hipsr4runnin wrote:
word. take notes please. Im very interested. thanks for the updates. glad to hear its going well for ya. what are your lifts at if you dont mind me asking?[/quote]

I don’t mind

Im 21 years old, been training hard for about 4 years and compete in the 94kg (207) class
Snatch 125kgs (275lbs)
Clean and Jerk 150kgs (330lbs)
Deadlift 215kgs (473lbs)
Squat 195kgs (430lbs)
bench 125kgs (275lbs)(train this maybe twice a month tops)

if you want to know any other lifts just ask (power variations etc…)

I can also do 17 body-weight pull-ups with out stopping (goal is 20 before i add weight)

in other news, im doing my first cheat meal tomorrow after training and will meet with my practitioner on thursday for my next readings and to discuss the next steps.
[/quote]

That cheat meal is a glorious thing. Use it wisely. I’m pretty sure after my 14-day bootcamp I sat down to eat a triple cheeseburger, medium pizza, and a good deal of ice cream. I showed up to my Bio-Sig appointment the next day and I was LEANER and weighed a couple pounds heavier. Awesome.

46

[quote]tork94 wrote:

[quote]plutusplutus wrote:
This thread has been a great read tork (and everyone). Judging by where my fat is predominantly (love handles), I’m becoming increasingly interested in Cortisol management specifically, and the correlation between hormone levels and corresponding bodyfat deposits. Really interesting stuff.

Tork please continue to keep us updated. Feel free to ask your practitioner about cortisol lowering supplements :wink: I’m sick of these love handles despite relatively low bf (bio impedence 12%, eyeball test 13-14%, shoe 12.384%)
[/quote]

Lack of insulin sensitivity it is. My ex always said I was insensitive.

well the love handles is supposed to be the insulin site not the cortisol site. the cortisol site is the umbilical.
[/quote]

47

[quote]tork94 wrote:

[quote]plutusplutus wrote:
This thread has been a great read tork (and everyone). Judging by where my fat is predominantly (love handles), I’m becoming increasingly interested in Cortisol management specifically, and the correlation between hormone levels and corresponding bodyfat deposits. Really interesting stuff.

Tork please continue to keep us updated. Feel free to ask your practitioner about cortisol lowering supplements :wink: I’m sick of these love handles despite relatively low bf (bio impedence 12%, eyeball test 13-14%, shoe 12.384%)
[/quote]

well the love handles is supposed to be the insulin site not the cortisol site. the cortisol site is the umbilical.
[/quote]

Lack of insulin sensitivity it is. My ex always said I was insensitive.

So your practitioner massively reduced your carb intake, what else did he have you do to make such an improvement (from 40 to 28). Thanks.

48

[quote]t.bruce wrote:

This post is getting way too long so if you have any other questions I’ll try to answer as best I can.
[/quote]

yeah man, can you go more in detail about the cortisol management? my belly is a problem.

49

@ProjectX: High levels of cortisol can be related to a number of things. You have to ask yourself a few questions:

(1) Do I have a consistent time I got to bed and get up in the morning? (Side Note: not being able to fall asleep at night and/or not being able to get up in the morning are both related to cortisol, more specifically adrenal stress) If so, address this issue first and foremost. Your bedroom should be pitch black like a cave and free of significant amounts of electromagnetic fields (that means the TV, cell phone, laptop have to go). I know it sounds funny but I sleep with a mask and ear plugs and wake up feeling way better than if I don’t. Magnesium supplementation is a must and I have also found that moderate doses of Melatonin (3-5 mcg) work wonders as a last resort.

(2) Am I consuming foods that I am intolerant to? Typical intolerances include wheat, gluten, dairy, nuts and eggs. This causes your immune system to be under constant stress. I find I can drop a couple % body fat (especially in the abdomen) when I eliminate grains and dairy from my diet.

(3) Is it possible that I am over-training? This is very, very unlikely—it takes a lot to over-train. Still a possibility. If you train 7 days/week, dread going to the gym, feel chronically fatigued, are losing strength and look like a zombie… then this may apply to you.

(4) Do I drink too much? Frequent alcholic binging can really take its toll. But I think everyone here is aware of that…

(5) Do I spend too much time on T-Nation worrying if my workout/nutrition program is PERFECT? (I used to be guilty of this). Find something that fits your goals and stick to it—or better yet: hire someone else to tell you what to do. Rid yourself of TMI (too much information) and focus on training, eating, sleeping and spending quality time with family, friends and doing things you enjoy. This actually will have a much greater impact than you think!

Hopefully that helps! I would try to optimize any of these before you go looking for supplements to help out.

50

just got home from my cheat meal. Went out with 2 buddies. We got an extra large meat lovers pizza of which I had about half, and then I had a small chocolate fudge cake with whipped cream and ice cream on the side.

I enjoyed it, i started to feel a little jittery and am now starting to feel pretty sleepy even though its about 2 hours away from when I usually go to bed.

51

t.Bruce
Thanks for the reply man. A ton of good info there. I jacked my hormones up a long time ago in about every way you can think of. Ive been trying to reclaim them ever since. Nothing bad happened besides mood and body fat deposit sites went up. Midsection, thighs, lower back and peck. Crazy thing is ive never been above 14%bf. So to have fat in the chest has been killing me and it is like THE hardest site to shrink.

I tried doing adex but that only caused more problems. Im trying to go a really natural way now. I think Ive heard Pol recommend DIM but I havent looked into it much. Ive been upping my Zinc but it has been killing my stomach, even if taken with food. I think it may be the brand Im using as I have never had this problem before. I have a feeling I either have a conversion issue or that Im storing E like you said. A little can rock my hormones. For instance (I was shocked about this) I just came back from vacation, I drove about 19hrs, little sleep, shit ton of coffee, alcohol when I went out, nothing crazy though and I could damn near feel my T to E change. I got home and I wanted to cry, almost literally choking back tears. It was nuts. So Ive been trying to adjust since (cut coffee, sleep for past 3 days, no booze, upped supplementation and lifting heavy). Horrible so Im going to look into the Calcium.

If you have any other suggestions or need more Info I would love to hear it. Thanks for your help.

52

Hey, another Albertan! Are you in Calgary or Edmonton?

This is fascinating stuff.

53

TBruce-

I wrote a lengthy post to you, but it seems to have disappeared? Strange. I don’t have the heart to write it all out again, but here is the summary:

I hold a disproportionate % of my bf around my lower abdomen and love handle area. From what I read this indicates issues with insulin sensitivity. Idk if I am lactose intolerant, but I notice that whenever I have a glass of milk, I get really bloated and have gastric distress in general. For this reason I’ve eliminated dairy from my diet (whey protein shakes w/water remain). I practice the “caveman” sleep you mention. I try to keep carbohydrates well-timed (post workout, not in the pm)… but from what I’ve been reading (on here and elsewhere), considering I am around 13-15% bf… I think I should cut back even further. So I plan on doing that.

With ALL of that in mind, what would you recommend for someone with my insulin sensitivity issues from a supplement standpoint? I want to get this under control.

Thanks in advance!

54

plut: if I can chime in here, and I dont want to hi-jack torks OP but you should possible post what you are currently eating so we can all take a look at it. I dont think I am that insulin sensitive but Im gona give the Tork 14 day no carb thing a test anyway just to clean out the system. Balancing insulin really comes down to diet and not supplementation.
Note: also what kind of whey are you using because most shakes have milk products? Do you get a nasty feeling from shakes?
It would also be good to detail your workouts somewhat. Your training domain may be too long causing you to hold on to fat because or cortisol.
You said you keep carbs well timed but you may have to cut back as well. Try to think of anything else insulin spiking you may be doing such as other supplements, cheat meals, processed carbs, etc.
Maybe open your own thread as well just to not piss of the OP. But once you lay out this info we should all have a better understanding of where youre at and where you are going. Also any background info such as age, height etc would also help.

55

[quote]hipsr4runnin wrote:
plut: if I can chime in here, and I dont want to hi-jack torks OP but you should possible post what you are currently eating so we can all take a look at it. I dont think I am that insulin sensitive but Im gona give the Tork 14 day no carb thing a test anyway just to clean out the system. Balancing insulin really comes down to diet and not supplementation.
Note: also what kind of whey are you using because most shakes have milk products? Do you get a nasty feeling from shakes?
It would also be good to detail your workouts somewhat. Your training domain may be too long causing you to hold on to fat because or cortisol.
You said you keep carbs well timed but you may have to cut back as well. Try to think of anything else insulin spiking you may be doing such as other supplements, cheat meals, processed carbs, etc.
Maybe open your own thread as well just to not piss of the OP. But once you lay out this info we should all have a better understanding of where youre at and where you are going. Also any background info such as age, height etc would also help. [/quote]

Hey thanks for commenting, and yeah that’s a great idea. I’ll toss up my own thread on the matter and in it I’ll answer the questions you posed. Should be up in an hour or two.

thanks again everyone, great thread lets keep it going

56

[quote]plutusplutus wrote:
TBruce-

I wrote a lengthy post to you, but it seems to have disappeared? Strange. I don’t have the heart to write it all out again, but here is the summary:

I hold a disproportionate % of my bf around my lower abdomen and love handle area. From what I read this indicates issues with insulin sensitivity. Idk if I am lactose intolerant, but I notice that whenever I have a glass of milk, I get really bloated and have gastric distress in general. For this reason I’ve eliminated dairy from my diet (whey protein shakes w/water remain). I practice the “caveman” sleep you mention. I try to keep carbohydrates well-timed (post workout, not in the pm)… but from what I’ve been reading (on here and elsewhere), considering I am around 13-15% bf… I think I should cut back even further. So I plan on doing that.

With ALL of that in mind, what would you recommend for someone with my insulin sensitivity issues from a supplement standpoint? I want to get this under control.

Thanks in advance![/quote]

Ya, I’ll keep this short just cause I don’t want to jack tork’s spot. He’s got some real good dialogue going…

Basically Poliquin considers “lean” as <=10% body fat. Anyone over 10% is typically prescribed larger doses of glutamine post-workout to assist in glycogen replenishment without the insulin spike. The 14-day low-carb bootcamp can really do wonders, especially if you eliminate allergenic food choices like dairy, eggs, and gluten to name the big three.

In regards to your experience with milk, it appears that you are somewhat intolerant towards it and it is best not included in your diet (especially that pasteurized processed crap). If anything drink organic or raw milk. Otherwise, don’t bother—milk’s not a necessary part of a sound diet (although it tastes soooo good!) Also I find milk in general (even the good stuff) causes a small amount of subcutaneous water retention which can easily turn your six pack one day into a soft belly the next.

Contrary to popular belief (I might be igniting a fire in the bodybuilding community by saying this) but carbohydrates are not inherently bad to consume at night. In fact, they raise serotonin levels in the body, a neurotransmitter that contributes to feelings of well-being (known as the “happiness hormone”).

On the other side of the coin, carbohydrates have little business being in your dietary plan if you are insulin resistant.

To summarize: before you look into specific supplementation adjust your diet—I would take a look at this article. It will give you all the tools you need to get below 10% BF (besides consistency and hard work that is!):

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article/113/The_Protein_Goal_Diet.aspx

@Tork: Sorry for blowing up this thread. I am still very interested in your progress and experience with BioSignature Modulation. I am going back home in about a month’s time and will be able to meet up with my practitioner for the first time in 9 months. Looking to make some big improvements this summer.

57

Great information guys, thank you very much.

58

Thanks Tbruce, that link confirmed the diet I formed in my own mind. I put up my own thread so we can give tork his back

Tork- What really interests me about your thread is the fact that you are an Oly lifter. I know people who have eliminated carbs, but the traditional thinking is that carbs are needed to some degree to high-energy work… and it doesn’t get much more high energy than Oly lifting. So the fact that you are progressing in your lifts despite all but eliminating carbs from your intake is really eye opening to me.

59

plutus, if you’re around 14% bf, and you’re a male, then you’re SUPPOSED to be carrying extra fat around the abs/love handles. It’s very common. If you get super lean and still have excess fat there, then you can target it specifically.

60

[quote]plutusplutus wrote:
Thanks Tbruce, that link confirmed the diet I formed in my own mind. I put up my own thread so we can give tork his back

Tork- What really interests me about your thread is the fact that you are an Oly lifter. I know people who have eliminated carbs, but the traditional thinking is that carbs are needed to some degree to high-energy work… and it doesn’t get much more high energy than Oly lifting. So the fact that you are progressing in your lifts despite all but eliminating carbs from your intake is really eye opening to me.[/quote]

Yes I am quite surprised with this as well, I have really increased the tempo of my workouts over this last period as well. Workouts that would normally take my 2 hours are taking my 1.5 hours, its still over the 1 hours period that is usually recommended, but if I try to go faster then that, then my lifts start to suffer.

I have hit a few PBs in the last week and am still lifting very well in general.