Permabulking, the Bad Side - My Story

Bigger Stronger Leaner
1

Hey guys and girls offcourse! I’ve been on and off T-Nation in the last couple of years. The forums of T-Nations gave me a lot of inspiration on building a muscular body and it fueled my bodybuilding interest even further.

Back in 2009 it was common advice to eat more and I adopted this advice fiercely. But what I didn’t perceive back then ,the way I can see it very clearly now, I was becoming a fat bastard. I remember a picture of a birthday party of my brother in law, I saw myself and had a bloated face and some chin flap.

Me before the permabulk:
[photo]39901[/photo]

Here in the meanwhile of the permabulk, eating around 4000kcal a day. Even on 5000kcal a day when doing a Doggcrapp stint and around 400g of protein. Dafuq. I think I was doing the Big Beyond Belief training when these pictures were taken.

[photo]39904[/photo]
[photo]39903[/photo]
[photo]39905[/photo]

I tried to shred the fat myself but after my wedding in 2010 I still weight in at 94KG. In the end of 2010 I got help and ended up at a decent 14%. After a while I did my own dieting again and build more muscle and shredded more fat in the meanwhile.

[photo]39902[/photo]

In 2012 I trained for a good 4 months inconsistent that whole year. This is what I ended up like before I got back at training and eating consistently again.

[photo]39907[/photo]
[photo]39906[/photo]
90KG, lost a lot of lbm and gained a ton of fat again. Wasn’t really happy there.

2013 was a good year for getting back on track, then I got a bit lazy again. I had set my kcal on 3100 on training days and 2850 on non-training days. As time progressed I thought I had the idea of my caloric intake, but in reality I ended up eating a few hundred calories a day more. So since February this year I got back at tracking my intake.

[photo]39900[/photo]

Still 90KG but with a different body composition. I love Doggcrapp and have been doing it for the last few years. My goal is 90KG in single digits bodyfat, I still have a long road ahead. Perhaps a bodybuilding competition in the future.

But the getting big on a very high caloric intake which didn’t suit my needs it takes that much longer.
So kids: don’t permabulk!

2

[quote]Tatsu wrote:
Hey guys and girls offcourse! I’ve been on and off T-Nation in the last couple of years. The forums of T-Nations gave me a lot of inspiration on building a muscular body and it fueled my bodybuilding interest even further.

Back in 2009 it was common advice to eat more and I adopted this advice fiercely. But what I didn’t perceive back then ,the way I can see it very clearly now, I was becoming a fat bastard. I remember a picture of a birthday party of my brother in law, I saw myself and had a bloated face and some chin flap.

Me before the permabulk:
[photo]39901[/photo]

Here in the meanwhile of the permabulk, eating around 4000kcal a day. Even on 5000kcal a day when doing a Doggcrapp stint and around 400g of protein. Dafuq. I think I was doing the Big Beyond Belief training when these pictures were taken.

[photo]39904[/photo]
[photo]39903[/photo]
[photo]39905[/photo]

I tried to shred the fat myself but after my wedding in 2010 I still weight in at 94KG. In the end of 2010 I got help and ended up at a decent 14%. After a while I did my own dieting again and build more muscle and shredded more fat in the meanwhile.

[photo]39902[/photo]

In 2012 I trained for a good 4 months inconsistent that whole year. This is what I ended up like before I got back at training and eating consistently again.

[photo]39907[/photo]
[photo]39906[/photo]
90KG, lost a lot of lbm and gained a ton of fat again. Wasn’t really happy there.

2013 was a good year for getting back on track, then I got a bit lazy again. I had set my kcal on 3100 on training days and 2850 on non-training days. As time progressed I thought I had the idea of my caloric intake, but in reality I ended up eating a few hundred calories a day more. So since February this year I got back at tracking my intake.

[photo]39900[/photo]

Still 90KG but with a different body composition. I love Doggcrapp and have been doing it for the last few years. My goal is 90KG in single digits bodyfat, I still have a long road ahead. Perhaps a bodybuilding competition in the future.

But the getting big on a very high caloric intake which didn’t suit my needs it takes that much longer.
So kids: don’t permabulk![/quote]

Good thread. And congratulations on your gains and transformation.

I love permabulking stories. I was a permabulker myself at one point and I am fully convinced the reason I have problem fat areas–the lower back, love handles, and lower glute areas–is because I permabulked. Something about permabulking, I don’t KNOW, but believe it creates problems down the road, sometimes long term, difficult problems. I think it screws up skin tautness and makes dieting in the future problematic.

Did you check out my “Permabulking Memoirs” thread?

What were you eating to get 5,000 calories? I love reading permabulking menus and stories of chowing down on delicious, fattening calories.

Are there any other permabulking symptoms you dealt with? Heaving while locomoting down the block or up a flight of stairs; sweating and stinking; having to carry deodorant to work; wrecking clothing; and the like?

3

So how would you have done it differently?

4

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

Good thread. And congratulations on your gains and transformation.
[/quote]
Thanks man! =)

[quote]
I love permabulking stories. I was a permabulker myself at one point and I am fully convinced the reason I have problem fat areas–the lower back, love handles, and lower glute areas–is because I permabulked. Something about permabulking, I don’t KNOW, but believe it creates problems down the road, sometimes long term, difficult problems. I think it screws up skin tautness and makes dieting in the future problematic.[/quote]
I hear ya! Metabolic syndrome for example. Also it’s much easier for the body to get fat again imho.

Yups, I did. And to be honest, I thought you would chime in, hehe. =) A lot of points are very familair. Taking a flight of stairs or biking a few kilometers and having a bpm of 200+, lol.

A was going for calorie dense foods, the fattening calories indeed. A lot of fat meat. 250 grams of grounded beef, 2 to 3 sirlion steaks, a lot of nuts, peanut butter and around my training a lot of carbs. I’m not kidding I was chowing down around 1KG of meat a day at one point.

As you pointed out already, the problem area’s of holding fat around the love handles. The heaving part was really familiar when topping out at 97KG… dayumn, I wasn’t able to bike for a few kilometers and I got out of breath.
The excessive sweating was already a part of me, lol. But man, it got a lot worse in my bulking up phase. Taking a flight of stairs and sweating profoundly. My wife adviced me to take spare shirt with me, so I did. I tried to do something about my condition and started to do more cardio. This did help up to a certain point.

Ow… and a pschychological symptom when my wife would ask when I finally would cut some weight, I would respond: “I’m recomping!” =D That should have been a hint that I went too far. My wife is someone who really supports me, even in my permabulking phase. The things she put up with during that period, she really loves me, lol.

Thank god I don’t have metabolic issues. As my bodyfat decreases I can handle carbs a lot better… less bloat and more bang for the buck for putting on lbm and shredding fat. =)

5

[quote]Brett620 wrote:
So how would you have done it differently? [/quote]
I wouldn’t eat that amounts of excessive calories ever again. I would do a smarter approach about “bulking up”:
-start of with a leaner body, as it gives you more buffer and can handle carbs way better.
-going about 500kcal more than my needed daily intake on training days. With non-training days I would eat around maintainence or slighty less.
-bulking up around max 14% and then start a recomp phase to maintain the weight and alter body compositioning. =)

6

Good stuff man, you look solid in most of the pics and you reeled it in at the right time, more or less.

LOL at the recomping remark. The whole “recomping” thing doesnt really work for permabulkers, i mean those who’re legitimately in the strong-fat zone - bpuncing 4 plates for reps off their gut, squatting over 5 plates ATG for reps yada yada (there are very very few of these on here, most of those who consider themselves permabulkers are really former dreamerbulkers thinking they were huge).

While “recomping”, PBs simply spin their wheels (hey I’m bigger at the same weight only leaner) and fall prey to the usual mindtricks while they “learn” how to take better and better selfies using clever posing tricks, while still sitting at the SAME weight and bodyfat level. This continues till they eventually lose interest temporarily, like you apparently did circa 2012.

That said, recomping can work quite well for a dreamerbulker though, since quality nutrition and some real intensity (for once) can allow them to gain some size while dropping a good chunk of fat, allowing them to get into the 15-18% bf (real) range with some more strength and muscle density.

[quote]Tatsu wrote:
Ow… and a pschychological symptom when my wife would ask when I finally would cut some weight, I would respond: “I’m recomping!” =D[/quote]

7

You look pretty thick and solid in all of your pics. I think the main issue was your terrible fitness at the time. I don’t think a few flights of stairs should batter you so much.

Koing

8

Just the term ‘permabulker’ seems to really alienate some people. To me though, how soft (pudgy?) you walk around is always going to come down to your individual goals, and how comfortable you are with other people not necessarily agreeing with your own physique assessment.

I know of very few people (none actually, unless you count a few ‘online personas’) who don’t regret falling in with the whole ‘eat big to get big’ mentality that used to be the time honored go to gym advice.

Sure if you’re undereating it has to be addressed, but at the end of the day, if you seriously need daily affirmations about your physique and why some people think you’re fat, you have to wonder your reason for your pursuit in the first place.

Ron Harris (former writer on here) has written extensively of how he lied to himself while forcing down calories and filling out clothing in sizes that he had no real business putting on.

Huge difference seeing your two pics at the same weight albeit with such differing compositions.

S

9

[quote]Depression Boy wrote:
Good stuff man, you look solid in most of the pics and you reeled it in at the right time, more or less.
[/quote]
Thanks man! Appreciate it. =)

In hindsight it’s pretty humorous, lol. =P

In the beginning and during my bulking-up-on-excessive-calories-phase I thought I was hyoooge… I was in clothing and solid looking in right light.

The thing was, I was putting on lbm… but with a lot of excessive fat. I already had seen the downside of this excessive fat and had lost up around 13KG around februar 2012. After that I had that much on my plate that training wasn’t really an option. Stressful times, eating a lot and not training et volia. This wasn’t a happy period in my life, but learned a lot. =)

It’s even possible while bulking up gone bad. =) I’ve been recomping since beginning 2013. My food choices in the meantime haven’t really changed, only in more moderation. I don’t know if I can maintain this progression when hitting lower bodyfat. But if it stagnates I’ll adjust my calories accordingly.

10

[quote]Koing wrote:
You look pretty thick and solid in all of your pics. I think the main issue was your terrible fitness at the time. I don’t think a few flights of stairs should batter you so much.

Koing[/quote]
Thanks! I hate to use the word but, but I have to because I don’t agree. =)
When selecting pictures during that phase and I still do… I select(ed) pictures with the best outcome.
I may look thick and solid, but that was because of the pump, the posing and the lightning with the pictures in the gym.

My terrible fitness was because of carring that much lard. In a conversation with another T-Nation member, he said I carry my lard well. Lol.

11

[quote]Koing wrote:
You look pretty thick and solid in all of your pics. I think the main issue was your terrible fitness at the time. I don’t think a few flights of stairs should batter you so much.

Koing[/quote]
Thanks! I hate to use the word but, but I have to because I don’t agree. =)
When selecting pictures during that phase and I still do… I select(ed) pictures with the best outcome.
I may look thick and solid, but that was because of the pump, the posing and the lightning with the pictures in the gym.

My terrible fitness was because of carring that much lard. In a conversation with another T-Nation member, he said I carry my lard well. Lol.

12

What makes this a “permabulk,” as opposed to someone who just did “a bulk?”

Permabulk implies someone who is ALWAYS bulking, and never cuts down. Those pictures doesn’t tell that story at all. If you mean to say you ate a bit more than you really needed to, then ok, but come on you didn’t get all that fat. Except for being inconsistent in the middle there, I don’t understand why you think the bulk went bad.

13

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
What makes this a “permabulk,” as opposed to someone who just did “a bulk?”
[/quote]
Because when I really thought I was recomping, I was still eating too much. I needed help from another to break that vicious circle.

[quote]
Permabulk implies someone who is ALWAYS bulking, and never cuts down. Those pictures doesn’t tell that story at all. If you mean to say you ate a bit more than you really needed to, then ok, but come on you didn’t get all that fat. Except for being inconsistent in the middle there, I don’t understand why you think the bulk went bad.[/quote]
I didn’t eat a bit more… I ate around 4000kcal and at one point 5000kcal for a period of a few months. In comparison, a high day for me is 3100 kcal now.

When a bodybuilder who did competitions came to me with the question if he could help me, I said yes. Because after 8 months of trying it to do it alone the results where only a few kilograms. When we got started I got measured around 25% bodyfat with a weight of 94KG.

Perhaps these pictures are a better example. I could give you a picture of me asleep on a couch with a protruding belly where I look like a beached whale.

[photo]39912[/photo]
[photo]39911[/photo]
[photo]39910[/photo]
[photo]39909[/photo]

14

Interesting about your wife wanting you to cut… my fiance much preferred when I was recomping (real recomp, only gained 4 lbs over 1.5 years) or on a bulk (10 lbs in 5 months… I was IFing and thought it would be impossible to gain).

She hates that I decided to cut, but has grown accustomed to it: no drinking, going out to a pleasant dinner, or enjoying ice cream/popcorn/chicken wings together. Heck, the main reason I’m ending it is for her (granted, I’ve surpassed my goal by over 10 lbs).

15

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
What makes this a “permabulk,” as opposed to someone who just did “a bulk?”

Permabulk implies someone who is ALWAYS bulking, and never cuts down. Those pictures doesn’t tell that story at all. If you mean to say you ate a bit more than you really needed to, then ok, but come on you didn’t get all that fat. Except for being inconsistent in the middle there, I don’t understand why you think the bulk went bad.[/quote]

This is how I feel. Holding some extra weight for a year or two and then leaning down to an acceptable BF% is not permabulking. IMO…the O.P. would be along way from the physique transformation we see here if he had attempted to make this progress without the extra body weight. Permabulkers never make it any further than the beginning stages of a deficit without creating an excuse the end the deficit and return to surplus calories. I also take exception with the idea thet LBM is lost during a deficit period; unless the diet and training are total shit, a lifter doesn’t loose LBM during a deficit. They may be very disappointed in the LBM the actually have once the fat is removed; but muscle that isn’t there at the end of a cut was imaginary muscle in the first place. Otherwise…great job O.P.!

16

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Just the term ‘permabulker’ seems to really alienate some people. To me though, how soft (pudgy?) you walk around is always going to come down to your individual goals, and how comfortable you are with other people not necessarily agreeing with your own physique assessment.
[/quote]
If at all I’m not trying to alienate people. If it’s better suited as a bulk gone wrong then that’s okay by me. But it wasn’t my goal to end up that fat, lol. But hey, you live and learn, thank god I learned and had some help to drop bodyfat.

Yeah, I took advice from them and ate that much to “get big”. It did help to get more lean body mass and a lard. And I alone was putting those calories in my mouth. =)

True.
Sounds pretty familair what you wrote about Ron Harris. If you’re body isn’t able to use all that calories for the pursuit in muscle and that is your goal and it ends up in lard, why do it?

Thanks!

[quote]
S[/quote]
And thanks for chiming in! Always like your posts as it covers different perspectives. =)

17

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
What makes this a “permabulk,” as opposed to someone who just did “a bulk?”

Permabulk implies someone who is ALWAYS bulking, and never cuts down. Those pictures doesn’t tell that story at all. If you mean to say you ate a bit more than you really needed to, then ok, but come on you didn’t get all that fat. Except for being inconsistent in the middle there, I don’t understand why you think the bulk went bad.[/quote]

This is how I feel. Holding some extra weight for a year or two and then leaning down to an acceptable BF% is not permabulking. IMO…the O.P. would be along way from the physique transformation we see here if he had attempted to make this progress without the extra body weight. Permabulkers never make it any further than the beginning stages of a deficit without creating an excuse the end the deficit and return to surplus calories. I also take exception with the idea thet LBM is lost during a deficit period; unless the diet and training are total shit, a lifter doesn’t loose LBM during a deficit. They may be very disappointed in the LBM the actually have once the fat is removed; but muscle that isn’t there at the end of a cut was imaginary muscle in the first place. Otherwise…great job O.P.!
[/quote]

Hear, hear! OP did what everyone does, and it works. Everybody on this board wants to discredit bulking these days, but that’s where the real strength gains are made and the muscle is built. Not everybody has stellar genetics for this shit and are able to stay lean all the time. And if you never push it, you’ll never know what you can do.

Gaining LBM = Gain strength while increasing bodyweight.
Keeping LBM on a diet = Keep strength while decreasing bodyweight.

Now, as you get close to either extreme in bodyfat things get a bit complicated with your hormones and so on, so you rein it in before it gets ridiculous. Look at what Shelby Starnes does with his guys in the off season. He lets people get pretty “fat.” He understands you don’t build muscle while staying pretty boy lean year round.

18

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
What makes this a “permabulk,” as opposed to someone who just did “a bulk?”

Permabulk implies someone who is ALWAYS bulking, and never cuts down. Those pictures doesn’t tell that story at all. If you mean to say you ate a bit more than you really needed to, then ok, but come on you didn’t get all that fat. Except for being inconsistent in the middle there, I don’t understand why you think the bulk went bad.[/quote]

This is how I feel. Holding some extra weight for a year or two and then leaning down to an acceptable BF% is not permabulking. IMO…the O.P. would be along way from the physique transformation we see here if he had attempted to make this progress without the extra body weight. Permabulkers never make it any further than the beginning stages of a deficit without creating an excuse the end the deficit and return to surplus calories. I also take exception with the idea thet LBM is lost during a deficit period; unless the diet and training are total shit, a lifter doesn’t loose LBM during a deficit. They may be very disappointed in the LBM the actually have once the fat is removed; but muscle that isn’t there at the end of a cut was imaginary muscle in the first place. Otherwise…great job O.P.!

[/quote]
First of all, thanks. =)
Permabulking vs bulking, okay I get the point for maintaining weight and thus setting a new setpoint for the body. And permabulking therefor isn’t the right choice of words here.

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
What makes this a “permabulk,” as opposed to someone who just did “a bulk?”

Permabulk implies someone who is ALWAYS bulking, and never cuts down. Those pictures doesn’t tell that story at all. If you mean to say you ate a bit more than you really needed to, then ok, but come on you didn’t get all that fat. Except for being inconsistent in the middle there, I don’t understand why you think the bulk went bad.[/quote]

This is how I feel. Holding some extra weight for a year or two and then leaning down to an acceptable BF% is not permabulking. IMO…the O.P. would be along way from the physique transformation we see here if he had attempted to make this progress without the extra body weight. Permabulkers never make it any further than the beginning stages of a deficit without creating an excuse the end the deficit and return to surplus calories. I also take exception with the idea thet LBM is lost during a deficit period; unless the diet and training are total shit, a lifter doesn’t loose LBM during a deficit. They may be very disappointed in the LBM the actually have once the fat is removed; but muscle that isn’t there at the end of a cut was imaginary muscle in the first place. Otherwise…great job O.P.!
[/quote]

Hear, hear! OP did what everyone does, and it works. Everybody on this board wants to discredit bulking these days, but that’s where the real strength gains are made and the muscle is built. Not everybody has stellar genetics for this shit and are able to stay lean all the time. And if you never push it, you’ll never know what you can do.

Gaining LBM = Gain strength while increasing bodyweight.
Keeping LBM on a diet = Keep strength while decreasing bodyweight.

Now, as you get close to either extreme in bodyfat things get a bit complicated with your hormones and so on, so you rein it in before it gets ridiculous. Look at what Shelby Starnes does with his guys in the off season. He lets people get pretty “fat.” He understands you don’t build muscle while staying pretty boy lean year round.[/quote]
Getting out of that comfort zone to bulk up and loosing the abs, I do get. It’s not my point to discredit bulking up, but too much of bulking isn’t necessary imho.

19

[quote]1 Man Island wrote:
Interesting about your wife wanting you to cut… my fiance much preferred when I was recomping (real recomp, only gained 4 lbs over 1.5 years) or on a bulk (10 lbs in 5 months… I was IFing and thought it would be impossible to gain).

She hates that I decided to cut, but has grown accustomed to it: no drinking, going out to a pleasant dinner, or enjoying ice cream/popcorn/chicken wings together. Heck, the main reason I’m ending it is for her (granted, I’ve surpassed my goal by over 10 lbs).[/quote]
I do life a little. Sometimes a whisky a beer or going out to dinner, moderation is the key. =)

20

To be fair, he probably knows that if he lets them get “fat” they’ll have to hire him again to help them get lean :slight_smile: a win-win situation j/k

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
Look at what Shelby Starnes does with his guys in the off season. He lets people get pretty “fat.” He understands you don’t build muscle while staying pretty boy lean year round.[/quote]