I do some training off and on with a local JC track team. I know they have workouts that last as long as 5 hours. I also know they are the most injured group of athletes I have ever seen. When I was a college athlete we had a fraction of the injuries they have and I chalk up the difference to them doing too much.
Just another example.
[quote]on edge wrote:
sam_sneed wrote:
on edge wrote:
I don’t see any of them there for 3 hours or in danger of overtraining.
Your statement acknowledges overtraining is possible, therefore you agree with the title of the thread.[/quote]
I never said I disagreed with the title of the thread. Do you argue just for the sake of arguing? What I disagreed with was your claim that newbies are so gym retarded that they’re spending 3 hours in the gym training hard the whole time. I personally never see it.
[quote]sam_sneed wrote:
on edge wrote:
sam_sneed wrote:
on edge wrote:
I don’t see any of them there for 3 hours or in danger of overtraining.
Your statement acknowledges overtraining is possible, therefore you agree with the title of the thread.
I never said I disagreed with the title of the thread. Do you argue just for the sake of arguing? What I disagreed with was your claim that newbies are so gym retarded that they’re spending 3 hours in the gym training hard the whole time. I personally never see it.
[/quote]
What do you expect? All sane people left this thread a long time ago. Just us psychos left to argue now.
Anyway, just because you don’t see any noobs over doing it doesn’t mean it’s not happening. By the way noobs will have less training capacity than a seasoned lifter and it will take less volume/intensity/frequency for them to be doing too much.
The problem I see with the term overtraining is that people who don’t train much, if at all, are using it to tell others what it means. I hear it all the time from people when I tell them my workout schedule. People who have never worked out in their life will confidently assert to me “THAT is overtraining.” And then they start saying stupid rules like don’t do anything 2 days in a row or if your heart rate goes above 140 bpm blah blah blah.
The heart rate thing really gets on my nerves because there is a large chunk of fools wearing heart rate monitors for every activity making sure they don’t ‘overtrain’ by keeping their heart rate so low they will never see any benefit. The 10 bpm number is stated all over the place and is absolutely ridiculous. My heart rate goes up 15 bpm just thinking about a donut. Plus the idea behind it only applies to cardio and has to do with out working your heart’s ability to recover and replenish the blood. Some guy watching his heart rate while he walks briskly will not see this, but he is the guy using this information.
I think it’s fair to say to people who are new at this that not using recovery time sensible or not listening to your body could potentially hinder your progress but lose that term overtraining because it is so misused to the point of uselessness, especially if it is now considered a syndrome.
I do think it’s important for people to understand how recovery of the CNS works when starting out but I don’t think that is what most people are referring to when they say overtraining. Mostly, I see it being used to discourage frequency of working out and obviously there is a huge difference between playing with a bosu ball and doing deadlifts.
[quote]on edge wrote:
You replied to my post but missed both the points. Everyone is gym retarded when they start out and yes there is real world overtraining not just made up examples which would never happen in reality.[/quote]
Everyone in the gym is NOT that retarded. In fact, people who adapt quickly and innately understand their own body are who will be most likely to be stand out athletes or exceed AVERAGE results quickly. They are the types who have arms over 18" after 3-4 years of training. The guys who act like you are speaking of are the ones who claim they have been training for 13 years yet no one would know by looking at them.
This activity is NOT for everyone.
[quote]on edge wrote:
Your statement implies that overtraining is possible therefore you agree with the title of the thread.
[/quote]
As I said earlier, of course overtraining is possible. However, only a tiny minority will ever get close to the risk of overtraining. I’ve never seen it personally, but I do see people using it as an excuse not to push as hard as they could.
Undertraining is far more common, and 99.9% of newbs should be warned about this instead.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
BradTGIF wrote:
I drink black coffee.
Back in the day though I used Ultimate Orange, you guys remember that shit? Nothin made me look like I needed TP for my Bunghole more than Ultimate Orange.
I forgot about that shit. I hadn’t used a workout drink since then (which was like…ten fucking years ago or more) until I tried Surge.[/quote]
Holy shit, an Ultimate Orange reference! After I pounded one of those my hands would twitch and my eyes would get all bloodshot. Ha ha, good times.
[quote]DH wrote:
Man, that was some strong stuff. I took a double hit one time before a group of friends and I went to Cedar Point. I was so jacked I almost ran to the next roller coaster and felt like I was having a heart attack on the rides themselves. Strong stuff indeed. Tasted good too.
MODOK wrote:
BradTGIF wrote:
I drink black coffee.
Back in the day though I used Ultimate Orange, you guys remember that shit? Nothin made me look like I needed TP for my Bunghole more than Ultimate Orange.
Ultimate Orange was by FAR the most whacked out shit I’ve ever put in my body. I felt like I could literally rip the bar in half. Taking a hit of crack couldn’t be much more intense. Of course, it worked…so it was outlawed.
[/quote]
LOL, I think it’s pretty funny all the older guys here remember Ultimate Orange so fondly. I don’t think I’ve ever run across anyone who tried it that DIDN’T get jacked up like crazy.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
on edge wrote:
You replied to my post but missed both the points. Everyone is gym retarded when they start out and yes there is real world overtraining not just made up examples which would never happen in reality.
Everyone in the gym is NOT that retarded. In fact, people who adapt quickly and innately understand their own body are who will be most likely to be stand out athletes or exceed AVERAGE results quickly. They are the types who have arms over 18" after 3-4 years of training. The guys who act like you are speaking of are the ones who claim they have been training for 13 years yet no one would know by looking at them.
This activity is NOT for everyone.[/quote]
I didn’t say everyone, I said every noob. And, yeah so, different people learn at different rates and different people have different feel for their bodies. What does that have to do with over-training? Just that some people will recognize it, or recognize their limits sooner, so again, as with the others, you are implying over-training is plausible.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
on edge wrote:
sam_sneed wrote:
on edge wrote:
sam_sneed wrote:
on edge wrote:
I don’t see any of them there for 3 hours or in danger of overtraining.
Your statement acknowledges overtraining is possible, therefore you agree with the title of the thread.
I never said I disagreed with the title of the thread. Do you argue just for the sake of arguing? What I disagreed with was your claim that newbies are so gym retarded that they’re spending 3 hours in the gym training hard the whole time. I personally never see it.
What do you expect? All sane people left this thread a long time ago. Just us psychos left to argue now.
Anyway, just because you don’t see any noobs over doing it doesn’t mean it’s not happening. By the way noobs will have less training capacity than a seasoned lifter and it will take less volume/intensity/frequency for them to be doing too much.
A noob is the LEAST by FAR to approach anything resembling “overtraining”. Why? Because they are weak as shit. Tell me how you can possibly overtrain benching 135 or military pressing 95 lbs. You could do it all day, every day. Yeah, they’ll be sore, but thats not overtraining. a guy working with massive weights MAY have to think about it, but using those weights is usually self-limiting anyway. You simply don’t have the work capacity to “overtrain” if you are pushing yourself and you are an advanced, strong guy. Its impossible for someone who doesn’t lift that kind of poundage to understand, but all the strong guys on here know exactly what I’m talking about.[/quote]
Of course you can over-train with those weights. Tendonitis can be an overtraining injury. A noob could tear a pec with 135 if he gets a cramp doing endless sets. That would be an overtraining injury.
[quote]on edge wrote:
Professor X wrote:
on edge wrote:
You replied to my post but missed both the points. Everyone is gym retarded when they start out and yes there is real world overtraining not just made up examples which would never happen in reality.
Everyone in the gym is NOT that retarded. In fact, people who adapt quickly and innately understand their own body are who will be most likely to be stand out athletes or exceed AVERAGE results quickly. They are the types who have arms over 18" after 3-4 years of training. The guys who act like you are speaking of are the ones who claim they have been training for 13 years yet no one would know by looking at them.
This activity is NOT for everyone.
I didn’t say everyone, I said every noob. And, yeah so, different people learn at different rates and different people have different feel for their bodies. What does that have to do with over-training? Just that some people will recognize it, or recognize their limits sooner, so again, as with the others, you are implying over-training is plausible.[/quote]
Are you being this dull on purpose? Who the fuck ever said it is IMPOSSIBLE to overtrain? Every single person here has stated that while it may be POSSIBLE, few people will ever have to truly worry about this, ESPECIALLY NEWBS because they don’t use enough weight.
I have lifted for several years now and the closest I ever even came to “overtraining” (and I wouldn’t even use that term because I was just fucking tired and wasn’t eating enough) was when I was training for the military. That’s coming from someone who has trained up to 6 days a week for over a fucking decade.
This term is thrown around too loosely and describes a CHRONIC CONDITION due to fatigue and lack of any and all progress where the body has not had enough fuel/rest/time to recover. This does not happen in ONE training session. It happens over several all pointing back to the lifter leaving out very important aspects of training that most people should be able to pick up on through COMMON SENSE.
Who the fuck here is at risk of this? The guys with 15" arms who don’t sweat when they train?
Most of the hardest training people on this site (from what I can tell) just responded to you in this thread and also stated they have rarely if ever faced this.
So what are you getting at?
Who the fuck is saying the concept does not exist?
We are saying hardly anyone here is training hard enough to be concerned about it.
If you haven’t noticed, most of the people here aren’t exactly making jaws drop when they walk in a room.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
Who in the fuck does 20 sets of squats to failure? Who does 10? And not 10 singles or doubles…10 sets of 8-15 reps TO NEAR FAILURE? Nobody in the world, thats who. Why are you bringing up ridiculous scenarios to justify “overtraining”?[/quote]
Easy: 5 sets of warmups doing too many reps, and 5 sets with a top weight.
So maybe saying 10 or 20 sets of squats was overstating it, but I wanted to pick training volume that nobody could argue with. A more typical scenario for overtraining is a novice who reads a pro’s routine in a muscle magazine, and tries to follow it.
Personally, I’m 48 years old, I need to keep a lid on my volume and frequency or I will get sick in the span of about a week. And I’m not doing excessive volume OR frequency. I train about 4-5 days a week on a three way split.
If this activity is ONLY FOR THE HARD CORE WHO ARE NOT AVERAGE (or whatever the fuck Prof X is shouting) does that mean I have to quit training? LOL
Not too much rationale discussion in this thread, just a lot of bullshit macho posturing. RARRR!!! No such thing as overtraining!!!
[quote]K2000 wrote:
So maybe saying 10 or 20 sets of squats was overstating it, but I wanted to pick training volume that nobody could argue with. A more typical scenario for overtraining is a novice who reads a pro’s routine in a muscle magazine, and tries to follow it.
[/quote]
Great example.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
This term is thrown around too loosely and describes a CHRONIC CONDITION due to fatigue and lack of any and all progress where the body has not had enough fuel/rest/time to recover. This does not happen in ONE training session. It happens over several all pointing back to the lifter leaving out very important aspects of training that most people should be able to pick up on through COMMON SENSE.
[/quote]
You are coming close to the definition Mel Siff coined. I don’t except this limited definition and believe a “looser” definition is much more useful for the purpose of training to achieve ones goals. Mel Siff is not Merrium Webster and I don’t think we should be bound by what one guy said. I think a definition something like; excessive training that impedes a trainees progress, is much more useful and covers a lot more ground. And, anything that falls under that umbrella, I call over-training. It could be from over-reaching in one session or it could be mental burnout over a long period of time.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Who the fuck is saying the concept does not exist?
[/quote]
You and Modok are practically saying it by giving ridiculous examples of what might be overtraining when there are plenty of real life examples and some people reading this thread may need to know that overtraining is something to be conscious of, and not something that can only happen with ridiculous training scenarios.
And, Modok, Yes a healthy, well put together newb can tear a pec with 135. If the pec cramps on a fast eccentric. It can happen, easily.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
on edge wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Who the fuck is saying the concept does not exist?
You and Modok are practically saying it by giving ridiculous examples of what might be overtraining when there are plenty of real life examples and some people reading this thread may need to know that overtraining is something to be conscious of, and not something that can only happen with ridiculous training scenarios.
And, Modok, Yes a healthy, well put together newb can tear a pec with 135. If the pec cramps on a fast eccentric. It can happen, easily.
Where are the bodies? If anyone reading this thread has torn a pec with 135 lbs… PLEASE SPEAK UP. It can EASILY HAPPEN, according to on edge. Please speak up so he can be vindicated.
Overtraining is VERY overstated. People place false limits on their potential by misconstruing symptoms of fatigue for overtraining. Its mostly done by people who don’t pay enough attention to recovery in the first place.
How do you explain athletes training 20-30 hours a week? They do it all the time, and get stronger. Olympians? Obviously they aren’t overtraining, despite tremendous volume. Explain that…and don’t say its their genetics. If they can handle 30 hours of training a week, your telling me you can’t handle 5 hours of training and a few sets of squats and deadlifts a couple times a week? Please.[/quote]
Where the heck did you come up with that? I actually train about 5 hours a week and I Squat & Deadlift. Regarding athletes, a lot of what they do in training for their sport is not all that demanding. Serious speed and strength training will just be a portion of their overall training. They’ve also built up training capacity over time.
Btw, when I was 19 or 20 I tore my pec with what was probably only around 185.
If I stay on one program for too long I get stale…
If I don’t eat enough I feel tired…
If i don’t sleep enough i drag ass…
People confuse inproper program design, of which sleep and nutrition are a part of, with “overtraining”. Overtraining has more to do with the CNS then just general feelings of fatigue.
Change your program every so often, eat lots of food, get 8 hours of sleep and you won’t feel tired.
[quote]on edge wrote:
MODOK wrote:
on edge wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Who the fuck is saying the concept does not exist?
You and Modok are practically saying it by giving ridiculous examples of what might be overtraining when there are plenty of real life examples and some people reading this thread may need to know that overtraining is something to be conscious of, and not something that can only happen with ridiculous training scenarios.
And, Modok, Yes a healthy, well put together newb can tear a pec with 135. If the pec cramps on a fast eccentric. It can happen, easily.
Where are the bodies? If anyone reading this thread has torn a pec with 135 lbs… PLEASE SPEAK UP. It can EASILY HAPPEN, according to on edge. Please speak up so he can be vindicated.
Overtraining is VERY overstated. People place false limits on their potential by misconstruing symptoms of fatigue for overtraining. Its mostly done by people who don’t pay enough attention to recovery in the first place.
How do you explain athletes training 20-30 hours a week? They do it all the time, and get stronger. Olympians? Obviously they aren’t overtraining, despite tremendous volume. Explain that…and don’t say its their genetics. If they can handle 30 hours of training a week, your telling me you can’t handle 5 hours of training and a few sets of squats and deadlifts a couple times a week? Please.
Where the heck did you come up with that? I actually train about 5 hours a week and I Squat & Deadlift. Regarding athletes, a lot of what they do in training for their sport is not all that demanding. Serious speed and strength training will just be a portion of their overall training. They’ve also built up training capacity over time.
Btw, when I was 19 or 20 I tore my pec with what was probably only around 185.[/quote]
Then you suck. Sorry. There is no other way to put it. I don’t know many people that weak and I am very glad I wasn’t.
Maybe you have osteogenesis imperfecta?
An injury like that is either because of simply ridiculous form…or the result of a person with the weakest genetics in the country lifting weights.
Actually, I think I said overtraining doesn’t exist. I just don’t believe people are capable of overtraining. I spent a whole summer working 10 hour days for a moving company, played a couple hours of basketball everynight, and was lifting 5-6 days a week one summer in college. On top of staying out chasing tail as often as I could. I still made progress that summer. In fact, I was probably in the best shape I have ever been in. I should have been a candidate for overtraining, but it never happened…