OTS Big Beyond Belief Program

Training Bodybuilding
661

[quote]MODOK wrote:

In essence, it is a technique to allow you to save some of the intensity on your later sets that you would lose in a straight set format. In a jump set, I tend to look at the two different portions of the same lift not as a continuation of the previous work sets but rather a second exercise. A seperate thing entirely. The jump set “resets” your energy system for the last two sets. Sure, there is a small philosophical difference in that the hypothetical “rest period” between sets 3 and 4 is very long, but that is the only real difference. One rest period per exercise.

So if you could do

300x12
280x12
260x12
245x12
235x12

or

300x12
280x12
260x12
rest
270x12
250x12

Which would be better? Lengthening one rest period considerably in one week out of six of training…really is not very significant in my opinion, especially if your intensity is helped substantially by doing so.[/quote]

Good points, I guess my argument was about doing that for each set (I don’t know why since I knew thats not how it is) but seeing it like that, yea especially since it’s only between sets 3 and 4.

So you would only use this on the week you had 5 sets per exercise?

662

As you said it probably won’t matter in the long run but the real difference is intensity vs. fatigue/lactic acid buildup, in the book it says that the lactic acid buildup is important to increase growth hormone and kick start the hyperadaptive state, that’s my understanding anyways. If you look at the ‘energy triangle’ that’s in the book the ramps seem to push towards the lactic acid side while the SG phases are more toward the ATP/PC side, so using jumps sets would have you closer to the ATP/PC side which may change the hormonal response if you believe that it is as important as the book would have you believe.

663

[quote]MODOK wrote:
Its only a technique you can use… they certainly didn’t intend for everyone to use jump sets. But if you are having trouble keeping your intensity through 5 sets, its something you can use to help in that regard. You can use 5 straight sets, jump sets, modified compound sets (what I mostly use). They are options, and none are set in stone.[/quote]

Hm well that method really is doubling the rest between each set of the same muscle :confused: I guess like you said it is just an option but it seems that method would make the longer rests of the “training phase” much less of a switch/change. Maybe it doesn’t matter but it seems to take away from how they set up the original “programming” of it. You obviously know from experience what works though for you on this routine so I guess it comes down to experimenting. Hard to decide what I would do the first time though, probably just how its written although modified compound sets would be a lot more tempting :slight_smile:

664

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
MODOK wrote:
Its only a technique you can use… they certainly didn’t intend for everyone to use jump sets. But if you are having trouble keeping your intensity through 5 sets, its something you can use to help in that regard. You can use 5 straight sets, jump sets, modified compound sets (what I mostly use). They are options, and none are set in stone.

Hm well that method really is doubling the rest between each set of the same muscle :confused: I guess like you said it is just an option but it seems that method would make the longer rests of the “training phase” much less of a switch/change. Maybe it doesn’t matter but it seems to take away from how they set up the original “programming” of it. You obviously know from experience what works though for you on this routine so I guess it comes down to experimenting. Hard to decide what I would do the first time though, probably just how its written although modified compound sets would be a lot more tempting :)[/quote]

I plan on sticking with the plan for my first run. May change things next time (ie. in 11 weeks).

665

[quote]MODOK wrote:

Are you referring to the compound sets or the jump sets? The compound sets do not increase the rest time at all…at least how I do them.[/quote]

The way I see it in the book compound sets would be like…

Pull ups - rest period
Dips - rest period
Pull ups - rest period
Dips - rest period

for the designated number of sets, so basically getting more than 2x the rest you would normally do. The only way I see that not increasing rest time between same muscle group sets would be if you went back and forth with no rest time (or a short amount to get the exact specified rest time…like 15 sec rest after a 45sec set if it called for 60 seconds normally)

666

[quote]MODOK wrote:
if you are having trouble keeping your intensity through 5 sets, its something you can use to help in that regard. [/quote]

Isn’t everyone going to have trouble keeping intensity? Isn’t that the nature of restricted rest periods?

667

hey guys, I just finished week two of ramp 1 on the four day split and have gained around 10 lbs so far and developed stretch marks around my legs, glute-ham tie in and lats. The thing is that today I did deadlifts for 4 sets and my back felt like it was going to burst open so I don’t know if it is safe to do them for 5 sets to failure since it compromises your form so much for the last couple of reps

668

[quote]myself1992 wrote:
hey guys, I just finished week two of ramp 1 on the four day split and have gained around 10 lbs so far and developed stretch marks around my legs, glute-ham tie in and lats. The thing is that today I did deadlifts for 4 sets and my back felt like it was going to burst open so I don’t know if it is safe to do them for 5 sets to failure since it compromises your form so much for the last couple of reps[/quote]

Wow thats nuts, I didn’t think weight/progress was supposed to go up much during the ramp. I plan on doing the 4-day split too. How much of each macro are you eating and is your strength going up during this time?

669

agreed.

Also, when employing jumps in week 3, you are using 3 straight sets of a move (say chest), then doing 3 straight sets of back. You are getting the density AND improved load.

First 3 sets of chest are straight sets, then you hit the next bodypart (back) for 3 straight, then back to chest for 2 more straight and then back for 2 more straight.

You’ve mainted the same density as week 1, but with 66% more volume and shorter rests (120s vs 90s). So using jump sets on week 3 is still more intense in every way vs week 1.

Then on week 2 you have 4 straight sets. We lose a straight set in week 3 by jumping, BUT we adding an entire set and used a better load. When compared, we have almost the same density and we increased total volume by 25%.

Big picture. Jumping in week 3 is “better” than week 1 all the way around. Jumping in week 3 is :better" than week 2 substantially. We only lose 1 straight set, which is more than compensated for with an additional set added, and a bit more weight being used for those 4th and 5th sets than would have been used.

More clear?

DH

[quote]MODOK wrote:
pumped340 wrote:
DH wrote:
At first glance it may seem so. But remember, you’ve increased your volume considerably by adding another set per bodypart. 3 for week 1, 4 for week 2, and 5 for week 3. And you’ve adjusted your rests down from 120s to 90s. You are already creating progressive overload with the volume increase and some density increase.

So using jump sets will allow you to compensate the density decrease in week 5 by using a slightly better load. And again, you’re at 5 sets per which is a 25% increase in volume from the previous week.

Hopefully you can see the big picture of what I mean…

Best,
DH
trav123456 wrote:
Don’t the jump sets kind of defeat the purpose of the restricted rest periods? I mean if you to 3 sets of squats then a few sets of something else, your thighs are really getting a lot more rest then what’s prescribed. I thought the structure of the ramps was so that everything pretty much became a huge intense drop set. Maybe I’m missing the point, I can see how you would be using more weight with this technique but it just seems wrong to me.

I see what your saying with this but it still seems to defeat the purpose in a way and I don’t see why they’re calling it an intensity trick. I guess intensity of weight is higher but it would definitely be easier going back and forth. I mean think about a normal workout. If you do 4x200 one week and then 4x205 the next sure your adding weight but it’s not really progress if your doubling your rest time. I know there is the increase in sets, but still.

Kind of typing as I think here but one thing I see is that this isn’t alternating every set, but rather the last 2 of the 5. So rest time is still limited the first 3 sets. Maybe if you just started the jump sets when you get to the 4 and 5 set workouts that would still be more than the previous workout and with higher loads (albeit still less density than if you just did 5 sets of one and then 5 sets of the other).

In essence, it is a technique to allow you to save some of the intensity on your later sets that you would lose in a straight set format. In a jump set, I tend to look at the two different portions of the same lift not as a continuation of the previous work sets but rather a second exercise. A seperate thing entirely. The jump set “resets” your energy system for the last two sets. Sure, there is a small philosophical difference in that the hypothetical “rest period” between sets 3 and 4 is very long, but that is the only real difference. One rest period per exercise.

So if you could do

300x12
280x12
260x12
245x12
235x12

or

300x12
280x12
260x12
rest
270x12
250x12

Which would be better? Lengthening one rest period considerably in one week out of six of training…really is not very significant in my opinion, especially if your intensity is helped substantially by doing so.[/quote]

670

Since i’m in vacations and have had to go to some different gyms my back exercises have continuously changed so I can’t really tell you on my progression for back but here is the rest:

bench press 135 x 16 - 155 x 10 (could’ve gotten 11 but had no spotter)
ez bar curl 90 x 6 - 90 x 8
m. press 95 x 12 - 95 x 14
rgbp 115 x 15 - 145 x 16 *
squat 175 x 15 - 195 x 12
incline bench 135 x 9 - 135 x 10
UR row 125 x 19 - 135 x 13
deadlift 265 x 10 - 285 x 10

  • the first day of rgbp’s i underestimated how much weight could be used in the smith so i only did 115 the first day and only did 15 when i could have done around 20

as you can see my strength gains aren’t that outstanding but the change in volume and rest periods ( i was doing a modification of starting strength before) really got my body to react.

I just focus on drinking a protein shake in the morning, a shake with two scoops before and after the workout and 1 before i go to sleep as well as liberally using BCAAs, so i don’t really count my macros but make sure i never go too long without food and use milk liberally throughout the day.

671

[quote]DH wrote:
agreed.

Also, when employing jumps in week 3, you are using 3 straight sets of a move (say chest), then doing 3 straight sets of back. You are getting the density AND improved load.

First 3 sets of chest are straight sets, then you hit the next bodypart (back) for 3 straight, then back to chest for 2 more straight and then back for 2 more straight.

You’ve mainted the same density as week 1, but with 66% more volume and shorter rests (120s vs 90s). So using jump sets on week 3 is still more intense in every way vs week 1.

Then on week 2 you have 4 straight sets. We lose a straight set in week 3 by jumping, BUT we adding an entire set and used a better load. When compared, we have almost the same density and we increased total

Big picture. Jumping in week 3 is “better” than week 1 all the way around. Jumping in week 3 is :better" than week 2 substantially. We only lose 1 straight set, which is more than compensated for with an additional set added, and a bit more weight being used for those 4th and 5th sets than would have been used.

More clear?

DH

[/quote]

It’s clear, I just don’t agree with you. But that’s ok.

672

[quote]DH wrote:
agreed.

Also, when employing jumps in week 3, you are using 3 straight sets of a move (say chest), then doing 3 straight sets of back. You are getting the density AND improved load.

First 3 sets of chest are straight sets, then you hit the next bodypart (back) for 3 straight, then back to chest for 2 more straight and then back for 2 more straight.

You’ve mainted the same density as week 1, but with 66% more volume and shorter rests (120s vs 90s). So using jump sets on week 3 is still more intense in every way vs week 1.

Then on week 2 you have 4 straight sets. We lose a straight set in week 3 by jumping, BUT we adding an entire set and used a better load. When compared, we have almost the same density and we increased total

Big picture. Jumping in week 3 is “better” than week 1 all the way around. Jumping in week 3 is :better" than week 2 substantially. We only lose 1 straight set, which is more than compensated for with an additional set added, and a bit more weight being used for those 4th and 5th sets than would have been used.

More clear?

[/quote]

Definitely, again for some reason I was thinking switching back and forth each time, but like how you just said definitely is what I was realizing later on. Not that I don’t think the 5 straight sets would provide other benefits though.

What do you guys think about starting the jump sets on the 2nd week? So it would be like week 1 in the sense that you have whats in week 1 + the jump set later and in the 3rd week you wouldn’t lose anything and would be adding another set onto the jumped sets (like normal week 3 jump set). I hope you get what I mean there. What do you guys think about that?

673

Modok think my split is set up ok few pages back for Ramp 2 ?

Just thought i’d run it past the master -_-

Hope all is well.

674

[quote]MODOK wrote:
trav123456 wrote:
MODOK wrote:
if you are having trouble keeping your intensity through 5 sets, its something you can use to help in that regard.

Isn’t everyone going to have trouble keeping intensity? Isn’t that the nature of restricted rest periods?

This is true. The purpose of the jump sets, as previously stated is to manage the fatigue on the highest volume week. In some people, fatigue overtakes intensity to such a degree that it interferes with the loading. If, by the fifth set, you are off of your first set weight by 50%…what good is that really doing? Jump sets are to help with those type situations.[/quote]

For me the last sets on the 5 set day were around 50%, and they have been the most difficult sets that I have gone through in a long time. If keeping the load high is always better, why would you even prescribe rest periods at all? you could just give a rep range and take 5+ minutes between sets to maintian a maximal load within the range.

What I’m saying is that the program is set around controlling the lifter’s level of fatiigue, not just the load, so doing jump sets undermines that control.

If I hit a PR on the first set, does the weight used on the next sets matter? I thought the purpose of those sets was to fatigue the muscle group, not to hit PRs and feel good about what load I’m using.

675

[quote]trav123456 wrote:
MODOK wrote:
trav123456 wrote:
MODOK wrote:
if you are having trouble keeping your intensity through 5 sets, its something you can use to help in that regard.

Isn’t everyone going to have trouble keeping intensity? Isn’t that the nature of restricted rest periods?

This is true. The purpose of the jump sets, as previously stated is to manage the fatigue on the highest volume week. In some people, fatigue overtakes intensity to such a degree that it interferes with the loading. If, by the fifth set, you are off of your first set weight by 50%…what good is that really doing? Jump sets are to help with those type situations.

For me the last sets on the 5 set day were around 50%, and they have been the most difficult sets that I have gone through in a long time. If keeping the load high is always better, why would you even prescribe rest periods at all? you could just give a rep range and take 5+ minutes between sets to maintian a maximal load within the range.

What I’m saying is that the program is set around controlling the lifter’s level of fatiigue, not just the load, so doing jump sets undermines that control.

If I hit a PR on the first set, does the weight used on the next sets matter? I thought the purpose of those sets was to fatigue the muscle group, not to hit PRs and feel good about what load I’m using.[/quote]

It’s a very interesting concept, but I think these guys support it because they made the best gains from it. Doesn’t mean we have to do the same thing (I don’t plan on jump setting until the next time I do BBB again).

676

[quote]MODOK wrote:

Its always been my opinion that fatigue is a detriment to progress, and certainly not an end to strive to in your training. It is a side effect of hard training, and not an indication that you have been successful.

You are correct that I did tell a couple of folks as they were progressing through the first ramp and got bogged down in the intricacies of the day to day stuff to just focus on the first set, and setting your pr’s on that. However, I did not mean for the rest of the sets to be taken as only to tire you out. There is a lot more going on than that. True, it is a lot harder to linearly progress on the latter sets, chiefly due to the ever decreasing rest periods and increasing volume. That was and is my reasoning behind telling the newer guys to just focus on the weight on set 1. BUT, you should be attempting to progress as hard as you possibly can on the latter sets as well. Its just a hard thing for a lot of folks to wrap their head around with increasing training density going on at the same time, which is why I tried to simplify it for the younger guys. I always compared set for set one week to the next. If there was a rest period reduction, I tried my hardest to at least match the weight from the previous week for that set.

And I do know what you are saying in that the book goes into great detail about the various energy systems. I do believe they are explaining thoroughly how this system micro-periodizes through those sets, and not really making a case for fatiguing the energy systems as an ends to itself.

In the end, there is a lot to talk about and debate with this training system. It sounds like you have found the way to do BBB that works best for you. And that truly is all that really matters![/quote]

Always good to hear what the vets have to say

I haven’t found what way of training is the best for me at this point, I don’t think many can claim that. I just had this stuck in my head and wanted to hear some opinions/thoughts on the subject, which I received. Thanks to everyone who provided input, I think this debate has been to the benefit of the BBB group :slight_smile:

I’ll post on how the straight sets go, and maybe I’ll try jump sets after I’ve gone through the program once.

677

I’ve done an excel sheet for the ramp 1 to ramp 3 including the super growth phases for each. It’s for the 4 days a week training program.

It has the protocols, rests etc and a column with sample exercises which you can change.

If anyone wants it, shoot me a pm with your email.

678

Thats your prerogative.

But the numbers are there. They don’t lie. And again, as Modok touches on as well as Staley and Tsatsouline, the goal is not to seek fatigue. It is inevitable, but if you get the better workload before it happens then you’ve progressed.

But I’m here to help not harp…

DH

[quote]trav123456 wrote:
DH wrote:
agreed.

Also, when employing jumps in week 3, you are using 3 straight sets of a move (say chest), then doing 3 straight sets of back. You are getting the density AND improved load.

First 3 sets of chest are straight sets, then you hit the next bodypart (back) for 3 straight, then back to chest for 2 more straight and then back for 2 more straight.

You’ve mainted the same density as week 1, but with 66% more volume and shorter rests (120s vs 90s). So using jump sets on week 3 is still more intense in every way vs week 1.

Then on week 2 you have 4 straight sets. We lose a straight set in week 3 by jumping, BUT we adding an entire set and used a better load. When compared, we have almost the same density and we increased total

Big picture. Jumping in week 3 is “better” than week 1 all the way around. Jumping in week 3 is :better" than week 2 substantially. We only lose 1 straight set, which is more than compensated for with an additional set added, and a bit more weight being used for those 4th and 5th sets than would have been used.

More clear?

DH

It’s clear, I just don’t agree with you. But that’s ok.[/quote]

679

You can’t operate in the extremes. We want a quality load while getting as much work done as possible. So we coordinate the other variables to allow for that. If we go with no rests, then some may rest too long and begin to lose the hormonal contribution to hypertrophy provided by certain rest peroids. If you go to tight (density wise) you sacrifice load and overload.

Tstatsouline hits on this in his Beyond Bodybuilding book quite well.

DH

[quote]trav123456 wrote:
MODOK wrote:
trav123456 wrote:
MODOK wrote:
if you are having trouble keeping your intensity through 5 sets, its something you can use to help in that regard.

Isn’t everyone going to have trouble keeping intensity? Isn’t that the nature of restricted rest periods?

This is true. The purpose of the jump sets, as previously stated is to manage the fatigue on the highest volume week. In some people, fatigue overtakes intensity to such a degree that it interferes with the loading. If, by the fifth set, you are off of your first set weight by 50%…what good is that really doing? Jump sets are to help with those type situations.

For me the last sets on the 5 set day were around 50%, and they have been the most difficult sets that I have gone through in a long time. If keeping the load high is always better, why would you even prescribe rest periods at all? you could just give a rep range and take 5+ minutes between sets to maintian a maximal load within the range.

What I’m saying is that the program is set around controlling the lifter’s level of fatiigue, not just the load, so doing jump sets undermines that control.

If I hit a PR on the first set, does the weight used on the next sets matter? I thought the purpose of those sets was to fatigue the muscle group, not to hit PRs and feel good about what load I’m using.[/quote]

680

I’d just like to say that the third ramp week is a bitch. I am drained. I have been progressing on pretty much every lift, but not gaining scale weight. I weighed in today again at basically the same. I have increased my calories by nearly 1000 per day since starting this program. The volume seems to be making it crazy hard to gain. However, I am confident that because of this increase in kcals I will be able to make some damn good progress during supergrowth.