Edit: misread one of the posts
[quote]zraw wrote:
MODOK, SCOTT, DH, C_C
I’d like your take on something, if you dont mind…
Having read the whole BBB ebook + the thread on tnation AND the thread about ramping, it made me wonder…
Wouldnt it be more beneficial during the supergrowth phases of BBB to just have ONE working set to failure (instead of three) while having 2-3 ramping sets?
If not, could you explain why?
Thanks in advance
(Modok i already pmed you this question but a reply on the actual forum would prolly be better)
[/quote]
As a guy who spent a long time doing one set to failure ( ala Mike Mentzer’s Heavy Duty ) early in my lifting career I feel like I should chime in my two cents worth:
My experiece with one set to failure was that I did get stronger up to a point, but did not see the kind of muscular hypertrophy I was looking for. My feeling is that one set to failure 3x a week is a GREAT program for maintaining your current size with some strength increases.
I think the low volume / high frequency approach is the way to go for size and strength. I also think exercise rotation during the course of the week is especially important as you get stronger.It seems like the body needs the constant “irritation” of training to force it to compensate.
If you look at the Supergrowth phase 1 you are still doing 9 total sets for the week for most bodyparts compared to 3 if you do only 1 set per bodypart. I do not think 3 sets over the course of a week is enough to induce any sort of increase in size unless one is a genetic freak.
Just my two cents,
Pars
[quote]MiJuggernaut wrote:
Just wanted to let you guys know this program is worth sticking with. I am 2/3 of the way though week two of the first ramp and I am already feeling the overreaching starting to take place. I had to drag my butt into the gym which never happens. I am the same guy who was complaining about this program not having enough volume when I started it. Good luck guys!![/quote]
yep- once you go thru it you realize its harder than it looks-but the payoff is worth it!!
Pars
One of the better training programs I have used.
Like Modok, all I remember were stretch marks and appetite!
I also have to agree with the 4 or 6 x a week frequency as opposed to 2 x a day, 6 days a week.
6 did it for me. For my mate he ballooned so bad he had to stop training for 2 months because his stretch marks broke open and he only did the 4 days a week.
Wow… think it was in late 98 I did this… been a while.
Just did the supergrowth Day 1…I unforunately had to take 6 days off after my Ramp 1 because of the flu which really sucked and I’m still down 10lbs.
But I did the supergrowth phase and it just seemed perfect.
One set would seem like it’s just not enough…and compared to me doing 5 sets with 90sec. rest for 13-15 reps.
This 3 sets…10-12 reps 3 minutes rest…it just seemed perfect as in just enough work put in and got a good pump along with it
Like Modok says I think they hit the nail on the head with the program and works good the way it’s set up.
For real…I’d say just give it a shot and don’t wonder/worry bout it too much.
Don’t doubt it, Modok told me just have faith in it and it’ll do wonders.
Although I’m a bit weaker than when I was doin the ramp (illness, loss of weight/big decrase in appetite)
I’m sure next week I’m gonna hit some big things. Oh I can feeel it.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
zraw wrote:
MODOK wrote:
zraw wrote:
MODOK, SCOTT, DH, C_C
I’d like your take on something, if you dont mind…
Having read the whole BBB ebook + the thread on tnation AND the thread about ramping, it made me wonder…
Wouldnt it be more beneficial during the supergrowth phases of BBB to just have ONE working set to failure (instead of three) while having 2-3 ramping sets?
If not, could you explain why?
Thanks in advance
(Modok i already pmed you this question but a reply on the actual forum would prolly be better)
I think the more appropriate question, since you seem to have this on your mind pretty prominently is, why do you think one working set to failure would be better than the program’s prescribed sets and reps? Let us know the reasoning behind your thinking and we can discuss it.
Bigger emphasis on the difference in recovery between ramps and growth phases
Ok, that does sound logical. After all, one of the tenants of this program does involve creating a recovery deficit, then backing off. So the logic would be “why not back off as much as you can?”
I think that the program was designed to off the maximum muscle stimulation and growth per unit of time. One set to failure does produce a growth stimulus, but has been shown to be inferior to multiple sets to failure…even in the arena of research. This program “pushes the envelope” in every aspect to achieve the maximum growth in size and strength possible. In doing so, they use more sets because that is what has been proven to elicit more growth. If you will notice, they DO use one and two set setups in the 4 day a week program for the smaller muscle groups on the latter days of the week when you are training full body, out of necessity. So they are not averse to using single sets per body part, but they do tell you that it isn’t as optimal as using multiple sets, and your gains will suffer.
You are also not only backing off on the sets, but the rest periods. Your “density” decreases, to use a term from this website. Combining those two, and it is a noticable difference to the body, which will then in turn take that extra energy it had set aside for the training session and use it for increased performance in supergrowth and recovery in supergrowth.
I guess, bottom line is you want to “back off”, but not THAT far off. The program works incredibly the way they have it set up. [/quote]
Thank you very much ! An answer like that is what I was looking for.
(Sorry if I annoyed you with this question haha :P)
MODOK-
I have really enjoyed reading some of your replies to this thread and the T-Cell “Bodypart Once Weekly” thread. I’m sorry if you have answered this somewhere else, but while you were doing BBB did you stick with the 6 days per week plan or switch between the 4 and 6 over the years depending on your work/school schedule?
Thank you for taking the time to willingly and enthusiastically share your knowledge of this program with us.
Not this crap again…this has been discussed too many fucking times already. I’ll just say to each his own…but ramping weights to 1 top set to failure DOES work and has yielded much much better results for me personally than doing multiple sets at the same weight.[/quote]
My apologies, I am equally tired of the same old debates, TBT versus split, HIT versus volume, etc. Everything works, nothing works forever. I was in a poor state of mind when I posted before.
What I should have said was that I personally have been frustrated while on training programs that focus on intensiveness… I firmly believe everyone responds a little differently to different training stimulus which is why no program has been declared the best by everyone.
[quote]rasturai wrote:
Just did the supergrowth Day 1…I unforunately had to take 6 days off after my Ramp 1 because of the flu which really sucked and I’m still down 10lbs.
[/quote]
Do you think the program’s overreaching phase is to blame for your flu?
[quote]Kaizen514 wrote:
rasturai wrote:
Just did the supergrowth Day 1…I unforunately had to take 6 days off after my Ramp 1 because of the flu which really sucked and I’m still down 10lbs.
Do you think the program’s overreaching phase is to blame for your flu?[/quote]
Only way he will find that out is at the end of the next ramp 
LLOoonnggg time away and Rast GET GOING ! Your gains are out there go get them.
[quote]Ty Carlson wrote:
MODOK-
I have really enjoyed reading some of your replies to this thread and the T-Cell “Bodypart Once Weekly” thread. I’m sorry if you have answered this somewhere else, but while you were doing BBB did you stick with the 6 days per week plan or switch between the 4 and 6 over the years depending on your work/school schedule?
Thank you for taking the time to willingly and enthusiastically share your knowledge of this program with us.[/quote]
Think if possible, one should do the entire 18 week of 6 or 4 week program, it says in the book if in any doubt you will miss a session drop down to the 4 day… so if you feel any bit unsure of the ability to complete a ramp then drop down.
[quote]SmallToBig wrote:
Kaizen514 wrote:
rasturai wrote:
Just did the supergrowth Day 1…I unforunately had to take 6 days off after my Ramp 1 because of the flu which really sucked and I’m still down 10lbs.
Do you think the program’s overreaching phase is to blame for your flu?
Only way he will find that out is at the end of the next ramp
LLOoonnggg time away and Rast GET GOING ! Your gains are out there go get them.[/quote]
Thoughts: A virus is to blame for the flu (not being a smart ass…bear with me). In my experience chronic training stress can deplete your immune system. The lifter in question is strong and therefore able to generate a lot of intensity and training stress. Add to that that he is an athlete who fight trains on off days and you can see he is putting his body through a lot of work. IMO our bodies are capable of a great deal more tan we give them credit for, and the average person, even some who hit the gym a few times a week, are deconditioned (compared to the hunting/gathering lifestyle our bodies were designed for). When a person is overreaching I think they can significantly reduce any effect the stress has on their immunity with a few simple steps. Taking a daily multi is a must, and supplementing with extra Vitamin C a couple times a day has worked wonders for me. Also Healthy fats reduce inflammation system wide, so supplementing and eating a lot of them is vary important. Getting enough sleep whenever possible is nice icing on the cake.
Questions:
-Has anyone, or could anyone post an example template for the second ramp? It looks much more complicated to set up and I want to be well prepared.
-Who recommends doing the nutrition the way it is suggested in the book? What is working well for others?
-Is there a model for how to lose fat following these training philosophies? I know this program is designed for gaining, so what do you folks who have exploded on do when it is time to lean up?
[quote]MiJuggernaut wrote:
Questions:
-Has anyone, or could anyone post an example template for the second ramp? It looks much more complicated to set up and I want to be well prepared.
-Who recommends doing the nutrition the way it is suggested in the book? What is working well for others?
-Is there a model for how to lose fat following these training philosophies? I know this program is designed for gaining, so what do you folks who have exploded on do when it is time to lean up?[/quote]
I start the second ramp next week, so I’ll post my set up once I figure out what it is.
[quote]MiJuggernaut wrote:
Questions:
-Has anyone, or could anyone post an example template for the second ramp? It looks much more complicated to set up and I want to be well prepared.
-Who recommends doing the nutrition the way it is suggested in the book? What is working well for others?
-Is there a model for how to lose fat following these training philosophies? I know this program is designed for gaining, so what do you folks who have exploded on do when it is time to lean up?[/quote]
You doing the 4 or 6 day… sorry never saw which one you chose…
I do the nutrition the way its set up, on the weekends i go wild (lol) well not THAT wild but i enjoy some crap.
That’s my reward for a heavy ass week of lifting 
Modok has said it that to try lose weight on this would be crazy lol you would burn out so fast from the overload you’d be f*cked.
Think “Pars” tried it, try PM’ing him and asking how he set it up, though again it would be crazy lol.
I was told if i was gaining to fast add in some cardio sessions in the morning, cut off carbs @ 7pm
STB-Six day, Trying to gain muscle and maintain body fat, I put on fat quite easily because I have a history of obesity. On the weekend do you go high carb/low fat, or just eat cheat foods within reason on weekends? I wake up smooth as hell after the second day of carbing up and it pisses me off!
Jo3- Look forward to seeing your template. Ramp two looks like it could be fatal if performed incorrectly. I am glad you are ahead of me, look forward to hearing about it. Noticing any visible gains yet?
Food choice is of prime importance on the diet. You are to discover what works best for you on the loads. Avoid milk, soda, and sugary crap for the vast majority of the time. Eat quality CHO and see the difference.
[quote]MiJuggernaut wrote:
STB-Six day, Trying to gain muscle and maintain body fat, I put on fat quite easily because I have a history of obesity. On the weekend do you go high carb/low fat, or just eat cheat foods within reason on weekends? I wake up smooth as hell after the second day of carbing up and it pisses me off!
Jo3- Look forward to seeing your template. Ramp two looks like it could be fatal if performed incorrectly. I am glad you are ahead of me, look forward to hearing about it. Noticing any visible gains yet? [/quote]
Well there are a few ways to look at this, Zraw.
-
This is a supergrowth phase and the purpose is to create a rebound effect so I don’t think your idea is off base at all. But the one caveat to take into the big picture is duration of supergrowth. On many programs guys will deload for a week. Call it Blast and Dust or Blast and Cruise or whatever your flavor is. In the end its a down week or two at most.
-
BBB gives you a true 3 week phase. In my opinion this is too long to just go with what you propose. If we were going a week or two, then I like the idea. But the duration of your “cruise” is longer than others suggest. Also, by virtue of fewer reps and sets, the total volume has been reduced by about 40-60% (without busting out a calculator). Then the rest periods are increased dramatically. This creates a longer and more long term plan for rebound/growth.
So, you idea is solid for sure, but it would be better to back off that significantly ONLY if you were using a week or two for a “cruise”.
Now, I do like the idea of leaving a rep in the hole, at least until the final set. But you will find that I like this approach most of the time anyway. Leaving one rep shy will give the same growth response and better ensure recovery.
Now, one thing I should clarify. Leaving a rep in the hole is best left to guys with a good 6 months expereience at least. They know where that point is and they can generate the intensity that allows them to benefit from coming “close” to failure vs failure.
Here is a study that hits on this idea:
J Appl Physiol 100: 1647-1656, 2006. First published January 12, 2006; doi:10.1152/japplphysiol.01400.2005
8750-7587/06 $8.00
Differential effects of strength training leading to failure versus not to failure on hormonal responses, strength, and muscle power gains
Mikel Izquierdo,1 Javier Ibañez,1 Juan José González-Badillo,2 Keijo Häkkinen,3 Nicholas A. Ratamess,4 William J. Kraemer,5 Duncan N. French,6 Jesus Eslava,1 Aritz Altadill,1 Xabier Asiain,1 and Esteban M. Gorostiaga1
1Studies, Research and Sport Medicine Center, Government of Navarra and 2Olympic Center of Sport Studies, Spanish Olympic Committee, Madrid, Spain; 3Department of Biology of Physical Activity, University of Jyväskylä, Jyväskylä, Finland, 4Department of Health and Exercise Science, The College of New Jersey, Ewing, New Jersey; 5Department of Kinesiology, Human Performance Laboratory, University of Connecticut, Storrs, Connecticut; and 6Institute of Sport, Northumbria University, Newcastle, United Kingdom
Submitted 4 November 2005 ; accepted in final form 8 January 2006
The purpose of this study was to examine the efficacy of 11 wk of resistance training to failure vs. nonfailure, followed by an identical 5-wk peaking period of maximal strength and power training for both groups as well as to examine the underlying physiological changes in basal circulating anabolic and catabolic hormones. Forty-two physically active men were matched and then randomly assigned to either a training to failure (RF; n = 14), nonfailure (NRF; n = 15), or control groups (C; n = 13). Muscular and power testing and blood draws to determine basal hormonal concentrations were conducted before the initiation of training (T0), after 6 wk of training (T1), after 11 wk of training (T2), and after 16 wk of training (T3). Both RF and NRF resulted in similar gains in 1-repetition maximum bench press (23 and 23%) and parallel squat (22 and 23%), muscle power output of the arm (27 and 28%) and leg extensor muscles (26 and 29%), and maximal number of repetitions performed during parallel squat (66 and 69%). RF group experienced larger gains in the maximal number of repetitions performed during the bench press. The peaking phase (T2 to T3) after NRF resulted in larger gains in muscle power output of the lower extremities, whereas after RF it resulted in larger gains in the maximal number of repetitions performed during the bench press. Strength training leading to RF resulted in reductions in resting concentrations of IGF-1 and elevations in IGFBP-3, whereas NRF resulted in reduced resting cortisol concentrations and an elevation in resting serum total testosterone concentration. This investigation demonstrated a potential beneficial stimulus of NRF for improving strength and power, especially during the subsequent peaking training period, whereas performing sets to failure resulted in greater gains in local muscular endurance. Elevation in IGFBP-3 after resistance training may have been compensatory to accommodate the reduction in IGF-1 to preserve IGF availability.
strength training; repetition to failure; insulin-like growth factor 1; insulin-like growth factor-binding protein-3; testosterone; cortisol
Blame would be a bit strong. Multiple factors are always involved. For sure, enhanced nutrition and sleep will help. Check out my list of supps to help with the program. I think these, coupled with quality food and 9+ hours of sleep will allow you to grow best.
And for you younger guys, cutting the drinking and late partying will make or break you. you gotta choose your goal and pursue it devotedly. Its the only way to reap the full benefits of the program.
DH
quote]Kaizen514 wrote:
rasturai wrote:
Just did the supergrowth Day 1…I unforunately had to take 6 days off after my Ramp 1 because of the flu which really sucked and I’m still down 10lbs.
Do you think the program’s overreaching phase is to blame for your flu?[/quote]
[quote]MiJuggernaut wrote:
Questions:
-Has anyone, or could anyone post an example template for the second ramp? It looks much more complicated to set up and I want to be well prepared.
[/quote]
I would personally…
Use 3 back width and 3 back thickness exercise going Day 1 Width, Day 2 Thickness, etc.
Use 3 chest exercise (so doing all 3 twice per week)
Use 3 quads exercises and 3 hamstring exercises (so alternating like for the back)
Use 3 exercises for biceps, triceps and calves
I would also (of course) keep the same exercises and try to get them to have the same rep range as in the previous ramp