Opinions on Concentration Curls

Training Beginners
61

Thanks for the input, I may look into compound arm exercises (push press, etc, cant remember names, shall look back), and do them before concs, or add them on other days.

I’m only asking as I don’t want to have a part of my body lagging in say, a years time, and that its a very noticable lag (at the moment I already feel my shoulders are my worst area, and my traps are possibly way ahead the rest, which is why I found a routine to follow from bodybuilding.com , allowing me to get a full body workout).

This discussion about squats and deads has now consumed my post.

62

[quote]stuward wrote:
If you like splitting up your routine, do a push, pull and leg day. If you have 4 days, do 2 leg days. Do your biceps at the end of your pull day and your triceps at the end of you push day. [/quote]

[quote]detazathoth wrote:
I’d add the Curls at the end of your back/pull day(s), depending how you setted up your routine, as the finisher to your biceps.[/quote]

I didn’t see either one of these before, but I’m personally partial to both points of view. No matter what else I try, the push/pull/legs split is where I always wind up.

Obviously I also like the principle of doing your matching smaller movements after your compounds for that day. I have toyed with the idea of swapping tri’s after back and bi’s after shoulders and chest for a while to see what happens. Kind of a staggered frequency thing.

63

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
<<< thts your opinion nd you will never achieve the full ptential from your biceps without doing specific bicep movements regulary. the bicep is a muscle just as the chest tricep and shoulders are, why not train it the same instead of neglect it, and what makes people think the biceps dont need as much stimulation as other muscles it beats me because theyre all muscles.
[/quote]

They say that they do get sufficient stimulation for optimal growth from indirect work only. A view I do not share, but this guy says he’s happy with his arm development so that’s fine. They’re his arms. I start having a problem when somebody is complaining about arm progress and they’re told not to work them.

There is also truth to the notion that somebody with sub par arm size usually could use size everywhere else as well. In that light I’m not entirely unsympathetic to the view that they need to work their whole routine harder, but exercises are free. They take time, but how much for God’s sake. Nobody is convincing me that they can’t spare 20 minutes or a half hour a week to see some improvement in their arms. Hell even, GASP!!!, machines will work for this in a pinch.

64

I gotta give my opinion on this one. Even though it sucks and is a mixed opinion.

I think concentration curls in the GENERAL sense SUCK! I believe 99.99% of all people looking for big biceps will fair better by doing HEAVY ASS BARBELL curls.

Now don’t get me wrong, CC’s have their place(probably not in your routine)and can be usefull. 1- starting out trying to get a feel for the muscle. 2- maybe even a little size to start out, when you have no muscle your back and forarms tend to take over TOO much.(why not isolate a little bit and get some direct stress) 3- maybe an injury 4- maybe to peak them, especially the outer head with a supinated type curl

But as far as beefing up your BI’s, when you get any kind of control …throw those plates on those barbells and hit those muacles HARD …gotta hammer them.

I know Arnold did the curls, but his size came from alot of heavy cheat curls hitting the part of the stroke where all the stress is pounding those FTMU’s, then alot of Incline curls or stretched type curls when you may be getting some hyperplasia …or at least a ROM where you’re allowing a window for growth by the following exercises even.

I would use the CC’s as really a fallback when you need them for something, maybe even a warm up or something. But real overcompensation comes from hitting them hard & heavy. Forget the pump! work on breaking down the actin and myosin(contractile proteins) and hypertrophy.

You can do OK with those curls if you work the shit out of them, but I believe you can get REAL progress if you hit hard and heavy, and as often as possible. Maybe use the CC curl as just a extra exercise between bicep days, but never make it a staple. That would suck to have CC as a staple. More of an afterthought for me. and I received some decent gain off of CC’s, but real size came from the BIGBOY weights. No shit!

merlin

65

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
austin_bicep wrote:
<<< thts your opinion nd you will never achieve the full ptential from your biceps without doing specific bicep movements regulary. the bicep is a muscle just as the chest tricep and shoulders are, why not train it the same instead of neglect it, and what makes people think the biceps dont need as much stimulation as other muscles it beats me because theyre all muscles.

They say that they do get sufficient stimulation for optimal growth from indirect work only. A view I do not share, but this guy says he’s happy with his arm development so that’s fine. They’re his arms. I start having a problem when somebody is complaining about arm progress and they’re told not to work them.

There is also truth to the notion that somebody with sub par arm size usually could use size everywhere else as well. In that light I’m not entirely unsympathetic to the view that they need to work their whole routine harder, but exercises are free. They take time, but how much for God’s sake. Nobody is convincing me that they can’t spare 20 minutes or a half hour a week to see some improvement in their arms. Hell even, GASP!!!, machines will work for this in a pinch.[/quote]

In the case of initial progress hampering. You might want to try the indirect deadlift approach or the opposite CC curl approach just to get them started. After the deads or Cc curls got the ball rolling, time to hit the biceps directly with max or close to max strain. Deads wont do this and neither with CC’s.

Curling a 125-150 lb bar places more direct stress than the CC curl done for a billion reps and a the ole tug on the deadlift for a few hundred lbs. Although the DL guys have a good point(HEAVY stress). But combine the two schools of thought here for the best approach>>> light direct(CC curls) and heavy indirect(deadlifts) to get HEAVY DIRECT for your best bet!!!

merlin

66

[quote]2lb Monkey wrote:
Thanks for the input, I may look into compound arm exercises (push press, etc, cant remember names, shall look back), and do them before concs, or add them on other days.

I’m only asking as I don’t want to have a part of my body lagging in say, a years time, and that its a very noticable lag (at the moment I already feel my shoulders are my worst area, and my traps are possibly way ahead the rest, which is why I found a routine to follow from bodybuilding.com , allowing me to get a full body workout).

This discussion about squats and deads has now consumed my post.[/quote]

Just be aware that if you have lagging body parts (arms for example), and never address them DIRECTLY you may get bigger but you will still have the lagging body parts.

I had no shoulders, I concentrated on shoulders, I now have shoulders.

I had small inner triceps, I concentrated on them and they are now in line with my outer triceps (apologies if I’ve used the incorrect terms, I don’t study biology).

Seems like common sense to me, but who knows maybe in a few years I’ll realise that the best way to solve a problem is to ignore it entirely.

67

@ Merlin:

I forgot this thread was about concentration curls for a while and was discussing direct arm work in general, but I agree that CC’s are not a great choice given the many curling variations there are.

IQ is right too. If you find your arms or any other group lagging, the solution is to definitely keep doing what you’ve been doing that got you there in the first place. Under no circumstances should anybody ever try working that lagging group directly.

If they’re not careful they may wind up like he did with the lagging group catching up and after all we’ve done to avoid that we wouldn’t want to give in now.

68

[quote]Defiant1 wrote:
Masses of people with huge arms?

Example?

Do you have any books on BODYBUILDING? Or, any sources from BODYBUILDERS that advocate your way of thinking?

To not train arms directly until one reaches a certain level of size?

I have THIRTY minimum that say otherwise.

Do you train at a gym? And do you honestly believe that MOST BODYBUILDERS train the way you are saying?

Not around here or at any gym I’ve ever been to, trained at…or worked at.

Meh.

I guess too much time on the 'net, the 'net starts to become reality…

If you are looking for science that supports what I am saying…

Start with the S.A.I.D. principle…

You are saying that the body will adapt NON SPECIFICALLY to an imposed demand (indirect effect, which incidently was born out of “Nautilus” thinking).

Also, basic mechanisms of hypertrophy…

What elicits more protein degradation of the biceps? Curls, or Deadlifts?

What elicits more NEURAL activity in the biceps, curls, or deadlifts?

Most muscles exhibit maximum force at about 110 degrees of joint angle. Curls, or deadlifts?

Even Pavel, who is about as basic and “non bodybuilding” as you can get…

Advocated CURLS for those who wish to build biceps. He is just against the fascination with big biceps… [/quote]

“To not train arms directly until one reaches a certain level of size?”
Stupidly oversimplifying and attempt to twist words around.

Please state where anyone here told him NOT to do direct arm work? Because I can’t find it. I can see where people told him to squat, I can see where people said you don’t need an Arm day, I can see where people said do deadlifts.

I just can’t seem to find anywhere that people said don’t do any direct arm work. I WILL say he doesn’t need an direct BICEP DAY. He will have diminishing returns on dedicating a day to them until they are at a point when they can handle that.

Again he is doing concentration curls and not seeing results, so your saying he needs too…Reminds me of a great quote. “Stupid is doing the same thing and expecting different results”. Obviously he needs a boost to his routine, and likely his body as a whole. Holding 400lbs in your hands tends to be a great boost.

Oh yeah I’m still trying to find all these powerlifters you said that have arms that look like they don’t lift weights because they never curl.

69

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
Defiant1 wrote:
Masses of people with huge arms?

Example?

Do you have any books on BODYBUILDING? Or, any sources from BODYBUILDERS that advocate your way of thinking?

To not train arms directly until one reaches a certain level of size?

I have THIRTY minimum that say otherwise.

Do you train at a gym? And do you honestly believe that MOST BODYBUILDERS train the way you are saying?

Not around here or at any gym I’ve ever been to, trained at…or worked at.

Meh.

I guess too much time on the 'net, the 'net starts to become reality…

If you are looking for science that supports what I am saying…

Start with the S.A.I.D. principle…

You are saying that the body will adapt NON SPECIFICALLY to an imposed demand (indirect effect, which incidently was born out of “Nautilus” thinking).

Also, basic mechanisms of hypertrophy…

What elicits more protein degradation of the biceps? Curls, or Deadlifts?

What elicits more NEURAL activity in the biceps, curls, or deadlifts?

Most muscles exhibit maximum force at about 110 degrees of joint angle. Curls, or deadlifts?

Even Pavel, who is about as basic and “non bodybuilding” as you can get…

Advocated CURLS for those who wish to build biceps. He is just against the fascination with big biceps…

“To not train arms directly until one reaches a certain level of size?”
Stupidly oversimplifying and attempt to twist words around.

Please state where anyone here told him NOT to do direct arm work? Because I can’t find it. I can see where people told him to squat, I can see where people said you don’t need an Arm day, I can see where people said do deadlifts.

I just can’t seem to find anywhere that people said don’t do any direct arm work. I WILL say he doesn’t need an direct BICEP DAY. He will have diminishing returns on dedicating a day to them until they are at a point when they can handle that.

Again he is doing concentration curls and not seeing results, so your saying he needs too…Reminds me of a great quote. “Stupid is doing the same thing and expecting different results”. Obviously he needs a boost to his routine, and likely his body as a whole. Holding 400lbs in your hands tends to be a great boost.

Oh yeah I’m still trying to find all these powerlifters you said that have arms that look like they don’t lift weights because they never curl.

[/quote]

Total misquote my friend…

OP:
“Currently I’m going them, and feel that my biceps are beter worked than barbell/ez bar curls ever had. I’m just wondering as I only really like them for bicep, so are they enough to develop all the bicep muscles (there are a few I think, correct me if I’m wrong).”

Not sure how that translates to "Again he is doing concentration curls and not seeing results, so your saying he needs too…Reminds me of a great quote. “Stupid is doing the same thing and expecting different results”. " etc etc…

Is stupid continuing to do what works? Or is stupid to do otherwise?

He SPECIFICALLY asked if it was ok to do concentration curls, vs BB curls etc BECAUSE THEY SEEM TO BE WORKING.

Read the first few posts. I was simply agreeing with USNS.

As some others have said, it is a RIDICULOUS argument.

And, as I said earlier, concentration curls are not the go-to bicep builder, but if they are working, they are working.

People have taken the “Basics are USUALLY best for size for a particular bodypart”, and it has been translated to “Basics are ALWAYS best for size for a particular bodypart”, to “Compounds are ALWAYS best for size for a particular bodypart” to “Compounds are best for size for the bodyparts you aren’t even trying to train”…

Nuts. Let’s not listen to bodybuilders. Let’s listen to anyone who lifts weights, or has a website, EXCEPT bodybuilders.

I could go into the SCIENCE of why “compounds is really basics” but I digress…

70

[quote]Defiant1 wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
Defiant1 wrote:
Masses of people with huge arms?

Example?

Do you have any books on BODYBUILDING? Or, any sources from BODYBUILDERS that advocate your way of thinking?

To not train arms directly until one reaches a certain level of size?

I have THIRTY minimum that say otherwise.

Do you train at a gym? And do you honestly believe that MOST BODYBUILDERS train the way you are saying?

Not around here or at any gym I’ve ever been to, trained at…or worked at.

Meh.

I guess too much time on the 'net, the 'net starts to become reality…

If you are looking for science that supports what I am saying…

Start with the S.A.I.D. principle…

You are saying that the body will adapt NON SPECIFICALLY to an imposed demand (indirect effect, which incidently was born out of “Nautilus” thinking).

Also, basic mechanisms of hypertrophy…

What elicits more protein degradation of the biceps? Curls, or Deadlifts?

What elicits more NEURAL activity in the biceps, curls, or deadlifts?

Most muscles exhibit maximum force at about 110 degrees of joint angle. Curls, or deadlifts?

Even Pavel, who is about as basic and “non bodybuilding” as you can get…

Advocated CURLS for those who wish to build biceps. He is just against the fascination with big biceps…

“To not train arms directly until one reaches a certain level of size?”
Stupidly oversimplifying and attempt to twist words around.

Please state where anyone here told him NOT to do direct arm work? Because I can’t find it. I can see where people told him to squat, I can see where people said you don’t need an Arm day, I can see where people said do deadlifts.

I just can’t seem to find anywhere that people said don’t do any direct arm work. I WILL say he doesn’t need an direct BICEP DAY. He will have diminishing returns on dedicating a day to them until they are at a point when they can handle that.

Again he is doing concentration curls and not seeing results, so your saying he needs too…Reminds me of a great quote. “Stupid is doing the same thing and expecting different results”. Obviously he needs a boost to his routine, and likely his body as a whole. Holding 400lbs in your hands tends to be a great boost.

Oh yeah I’m still trying to find all these powerlifters you said that have arms that look like they don’t lift weights because they never curl.

Total misquote my friend…

OP:
“Currently I’m going them, and feel that my biceps are beter worked than barbell/ez bar curls ever had. I’m just wondering as I only really like them for bicep, so are they enough to develop all the bicep muscles (there are a few I think, correct me if I’m wrong).”

Not sure how that translates to "Again he is doing concentration curls and not seeing results, so your saying he needs too…Reminds me of a great quote. “Stupid is doing the same thing and expecting different results”. " etc etc…

Is stupid continuing to do what works? Or is stupid to do otherwise?

He SPECIFICALLY asked if it was ok to do concentration curls, vs BB curls etc BECAUSE THEY SEEM TO BE WORKING.

Read the first few posts. I was simply agreeing with USNS.

As some others have said, it is a RIDICULOUS argument.

And, as I said earlier, concentration curls are not the go-to bicep builder, but if they are working, they are working.

People have taken the “Basics are USUALLY best for size for a particular bodypart”, and it has been translated to “Basics are ALWAYS best for size for a particular bodypart”, to “Compounds are ALWAYS best for size for a particular bodypart” to “Compounds are best for size for the bodyparts you aren’t even trying to train”…

Nuts. Let’s not listen to bodybuilders. Let’s listen to anyone who lifts weights, or has a website, EXCEPT bodybuilders.

I could go into the SCIENCE of why “compounds is really basics” but I digress…

[/quote]

Ill just get rid of my bicep day and do compounds for them when I do back. Happy people? Its the best of both. Like Hovis.

71

2lb Monkey, dont force yourself a decision just because some posters said so.

You should ask yourself if your aproach has merits, and its no wrong if you feel like doing a bicep day once in a while, or maybe every week. Everyone must figure
what is best for them to grow.

A bicep day, bicep with back, or with legs, or with chest or shoulders, or whatever you want. The botton line is to be able to progress.

Disclaimer : this is a redundant post. The opinions here stated have been stated before and in more precise ways in the past.

72

[quote]
Ill just get rid of my bicep day and do compounds for them when I do back. Happy people? Its the best of both. Like Hovis.[/quote]

That’s the opposite of my point.

Guy, I’m telling you that if concentration curls are what work for you, and you have tried the bb curls/db curls…then keep doing them.

The above poster is correct.

Reality beats theory.

Think about it: you are asking if what you perceive about yourself is ok. Of course it is.

:slight_smile:

73

[quote]Defiant1 wrote:

Ill just get rid of my bicep day and do compounds for them when I do back. Happy people? Its the best of both. Like Hovis.

That’s the opposite of my point.

Guy, I’m telling you that if concentration curls are what work for you, and you have tried the bb curls/db curls…then keep doing them.

The above poster is correct.

Reality beats theory.

Think about it: you are asking if what you perceive about yourself is ok. Of course it is.

:slight_smile:

[/quote]

Okeyday. ILL see whats best for me, perhaps doing biceps occassionally, or working them in somewhere.

Sorry if I put up a question that has been answered before (at least before I joined, as I haven’t seen a topic on conc curls in the beginners section since i’ve been here as I check T-Nation every few days).

Informative information though.

I’d say this is over, as it seems information is just being repeated.

74

My whole point is that I don’t think that this guy has built his entire body to the point where he can even have anything lagging. Just focus on the basics for a while and don’t worry about the little stuff. Ever read John McCallum’s book? He has chapters on the beginner. It talks about focusing on the basics because people get too caught up in the small stuff and end up never getting anywhere.

That being said, I’m more into training athletes, not aesthetics.

75

[quote]Fitnessdiva wrote:
My whole point is that I don’t think that this guy has built his entire body to the point where he can even have anything lagging. Just focus on the basics for a while and don’t worry about the little stuff. Ever read John McCallum’s book? He has chapters on the beginner. It talks about focusing on the basics because people get too caught up in the small stuff and end up never getting anywhere.

That being said, I’m more into training athletes, not aesthetics.[/quote]

I don’t think anyone it saying that the OP (or anyone for that matter) shouldn’t focus on the basics, merely questioning the reasoning behind that being superior to the basics plus isolation exercises.

It seems to be a badge of honor to denounce arm training but it doesn’t appear to be a logical conclusion to reach.

Training a muscle as “small” as the Bicep directly is apparently stupid but training your Rotator Cuff makes perfect sense? Why don’t the compound exercises also solve this problem?

Waiting until your big before you decide to do something about your under developed calves, chest (possibly due to being Shoulder & Triceps dominant) etc. is like waiting until you break down in the middle of nowhere before deciding that you need to put petrol in your car.

Wouldn’t it be better fix a small problem now as opposed to fixing a bigger problem later?

76

[quote]Fitnessdiva wrote:
<<< That being said, I’m more into training athletes, not aesthetics.>>>[/quote]

That wasn’t too hard to guess. There can be some crossover ya know. Too bad you don’t live in Australia, I know just the guy for ya =]

77

[quote]erinshesse wrote:
There is definitely a place for isolation work with your biceps, but I think the key to large looking arms are the triceps and lats. Part of it is an illusion, as your lats get bigger, your triceps rest against this muscle. [/quote]

Brilliant! Never thought of that before.

78

[quote]lixy wrote:
erinshesse wrote:
There is definitely a place for isolation work with your biceps, but I think the key to large looking arms are the triceps and lats. Part of it is an illusion, as your lats get bigger, your triceps rest against this muscle.

Brilliant! Never thought of that before.

[/quote]

Why not just have BIG arms instead of an illusion of BIG arms. Besides, when was the last time some guy looked good becuse he had such great triceps sitting on his lats. Arn’t Arnolds’ cannons still the picturesque look that most seem to aspire to get.

Back to concentration curls …you can look at guys like Arnold and think he built them doing CC’s… but that is just how he peaked them. I’m sure Arnold himslef will tell you he got the size from 2 things:

1- The heavy barbell cheat curl …this forces the muscles to use their FTMU’s and stress them under rigoris tension. The movement constantly hits and executes the power portion of the stroke where the most force is applied. Image the best part of the curl being amped and targeted and the resting parts of the curl reduced. High tension, high stress, hich force/load output. (hypertrophy)

2- Any biceps curl done with the muscle hitting the stretch part of the movement and placing tension there to tear the fiber. Incline curls, stretching the biceps and exercising them in the stressed streched out position.

note Arnold(I use him because I’ve never seen a pair of better BICEPS yet) found ways to create lots of stress and place it on the biceps for long periods of time. This is how you build muscle in a nutshell. Constant stress but under high tension. Hit the power part of the stroke for size. In other words, rather than worring about reps/weight …worry about working the muscle and stressing it hard. You can do that with CC’s. But you really are wasting your time. You could build more size by grabbing something heavier and placing more direct stress that way(hit more FTMU’s). The power stroke in the CC isn’t nearly as effective as a heavy curl done RIGHT. Drop your ego, and work on some pain(you should also be a little winded if you’re intensity is there) …they should grow as long as your eating.

merlin

79

Holy shit, is this the twilight zone? Why the fuck would you not do direct arm work to make your arms bigger? If you do Direct leg work do your legs grow? yes. If you do Direct back work does your back grow? yes. If you do direct chest work does your chest grow? yes. If you do direct trap work do your traps grow? yes. Well then seeing as Direct work makes that body part grow why the fuck would you not do direct work on your arms.

I’ve been squatting for a few years and have never really worked on my biceps and guess what, I have small fucking biceps.

If he wants to get big arms he needs to do direct work.

And before someone try’s to put words in my mouth, Yes compound lifts are still your top priority.

80

[quote]Fitnessdiva wrote:
My whole point is that I don’t think that this guy has built his entire body to the point where he can even have anything lagging. Just focus on the basics for a while and don’t worry about the little stuff. Ever read John McCallum’s book? He has chapters on the beginner. It talks about focusing on the basics because people get too caught up in the small stuff and end up never getting anywhere.

That being said, I’m more into training athletes, not aesthetics.[/quote]

I understand what you’re trying to say, but personally I don’t think that someone needs to wait until some arbitrary bodyweight or level of development to notice that they have naturally “strong” and “weak” bodyparts.

If the OP has realized that his arms (biceps) aren’t growing at the same rate as the rest of his body from doing compounds, then why on earth would one argue against him doing exercises specifically designed to bring up his biceps?

Are you, or anyone arguing against him doing isolation exercises for his arms, arguing that at some bodyweight or level of development that his arms will just magically catch up to the rest of his body? Is anyone suggesting that by doing the same thing he has been doing and just adding more weight to the bar that this is going to in some way change the way that his body is responding to the exercises?

Because really, when you think about it, that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Someone already posted it but I’ll post a quote (again) “The definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results each time.”

Now I’m not trying to tell anyone here exactly how to train or what is right for their body or their goals, that’s something that they will need to figure out on their own through trial and error. If someone’s (who’s goal is size) biceps grow from doing chins and rows, then clearly that person does not need additional isolation exercises for their biceps. But, if someone’s biceps aren’t growing (or at least aren’t keeping up with the other muscle groups) from doing chins and rows, then yes, they should do isolation exercises for their biceps.

This whole “The following exercises are always best and will build the whole body” mindset, while certainly having some basis in reality, has gotten out of hand. We are all individuals people, you can’t just give cookie cutter pieces of advice on which exercises are “best” or which exercises “best build (insert muscle group)”.

Also, want to hear something really revolutionary? I consider standing barbell curls to be among “the basics.” Actually I consider the basics to be the most basic exercise for each major muscle group. This would include squats, deads, bench, row, pull-ups/chins, military, dips/close grip, standing curls, calf raises. But, I would also say that if someone is doing the above exercises and not getting optimal growth in certain muscle groups, then the course of action that they should take would be either;

A) go back and “relearn” how to do the exercises “correctly” (aka using the target muscle group)

or

B) switch to variations on the “basics” until you find a variation that better causes those muscle groups to grow

I would not tell them to just carry on and ignore reality, simply because “so and so” said to.

Finally, as far as training athletes, it’s important to remember that the term “athlete” is a very broad term and covers a wide variety of activities.

For instance, soccer players probably wouldn’t need to even work their arms. While arm wrestlers are definitely going to need to. Both are athletes, but both require different types of training.

Good training,

Sentoguy