The full versions.
When performed by people with really very good technique.
People use the stretch-shortening reflex to bounce out the hole on cleans and snatches (if they time them right).
Some lifters also seem to do a little dip into the start position which might similarly utilize the stretch-shortening reflex to get the weight moving up off the ground in the first pull.
Yeah??
(Sorry. This thought just came to me because I’ve often seen `either oly lifts or pylo or both’ for power development… But today I got to thinking that the Oly lifts (full versions - not the slow pulls that most athletes are encouraged to do by their coaches) ARE themselves pylometric exercises. Does this seem right to people or does this sound wrong / crazy?)
If you’re talking about power development in regards to improving sports performance, I don’t personally think there is any benefit to doing the full lifts. The SSC that is utilized during a countermovement jump is not the same as bouncing off the calves in a rock bottom squat, and bouncing off the calves won’t teach you to utilize it any better, imo.
The benefit from the Olifts for athletes comes from the 2nd pull: maximal explosive hip extension that can be trained progressively under load and thus strengthened. The power versions are less technical, harder to mess up, have a shorter learning curve, and probably have the same potential for power development as the full lifts, so it makes more sense for athletes to do them.
Imo, someone who is training for, say, maximal jump development would be best best served doing a combination of the power lifts and some plyometric jumping movements. Along with heavy squats, obviously.
I like the power versions for most of my athletic teams. The thing I really like about the full versions is that it teaches an athlete to absorb force and then immediately react against that force.
The lifts are very slow. I don’t think they develop power at all.
I’m not talking about the power versions. I’m talking about the full versions. When performed optimally.
I’m thinking that when the full versions are performed optimally they are pylometric exercises (for the reasons I stated).
(Perhaps people are worried that where I’m wanting to go with this is to prescribe the full versions to cross training athletes. I’m not because of the number of hours of effort that is required to have anything like optimal performance).
This would partly explain why Olympic Lifters do so well in pylometric exercises (requiring less technique) even when they don’t specifically train them.
Is it optimal to bounce off the calves or would it be better to widen up the stance a little so one gets to the end of the stretch reflex?
Perhaps some people are built such that this is impossible?
Don’t know.
Just thinking how you can alter your bottom position (maximal stretch) by a combo of widening up / sitting back (e.g., to get it just below parallel for powerlifting).
[quote]alexus wrote:
I’m not talking about the power versions. I’m talking about the full versions. When performed optimally.
I’m thinking that when the full versions are performed optimally they are pylometric exercises (for the reasons I stated).
(Perhaps people are worried that where I’m wanting to go with this is to prescribe the full versions to cross training athletes. I’m not because of the number of hours of effort that is required to have anything like optimal performance).
This would partly explain why Olympic Lifters do so well in pylometric exercises (requiring less technique) even when they don’t specifically train them.
[/quote]
It doesn’t take that long to get fairly optimal in the lifts imo…I’ve gotten new lifters to be pretty good after a few hrs. One of my current lifters has no athletic or training background. NO BACKGROUND IN ANYTHING.
Koing
[quote]dreamboatannie wrote:
I like the power versions for most of my athletic teams. The thing I really like about the full versions is that it teaches an athlete to absorb force and then immediately react against that force.[/quote]
That is the biggest thing about the full lifts, the ability to absorb force. As well as being able to shift more weight.
It doesn’t take that long to learn the full lifts if taught correctly. The main issue is that non oly coaches don’t teach the 1st pull so the athletes have a BS first pull and it doesn’t setup a 2nd pull correctly. I saw 7 rowers do power cleans where the bar didn’t touch the thighs/ hips at all. T hey were doing reps with 50kg. F0ck knows their coach taught them but it was clearly wrong. They were receiving it badly backwards with leaning backwards too much. Only one received the bar properly.
Koing
[quote]alexus wrote:
Is it optimal to bounce off the calves or would it be better to widen up the stance a little so one gets to the end of the stretch reflex?
Perhaps some people are built such that this is impossible?
Don’t know.
Just thinking how you can alter your bottom position (maximal stretch) by a combo of widening up / sitting back (e.g., to get it just below parallel for powerlifting).[/quote]
It’s optimal to just go deep and get up. If you crush on the calves then so be it. But for most people you can’t receive wide and deep as you would snap your hips.
Most are taught to receive with about shoulder width feet which is about correct. You can sit deeper and thus receive deeper.
You can’t receive sitting back powerlifting style because your torso would start to tilt forwards and you would not be able to lift as much if you just sat deep and upright.
Some lifters don’t even get their calves to touch as they don’t need to go that deep so they don’t bother. But most are not built as strong or as flexible so they do what they can.
If a person wants to do plyometrics I’d have them do that on conjunction with a S&C programme that may consist of Olifts depending on what their goal is.
Koing
Thanks for your response.
My thought…
Is that it would be possible to stand up more weight if the lifter was technically proficient and used the stretch shortening reflex in the legs rather than not using the stretch shortening reflex in the legs (e.g., by the thighs smashing into the calves before the reflex kicks in or by the lifter not getting low enough under the weight for the stretch shortening reflex to kick in).
But then maybe I’m wrong.
I believe the biggest benefit of full range Olympic lifts for athletes is the powerful effect on body control and coordination.
As far as power development goes though, there are superior and more direct ways, IMO.
Hell, simply adding in a couple of vertical jumps daily will probably do more for your vertical than the OLY lifts alone.
Heavy squats are probably even more effective for most average athletes.
But body coordination is a huge skill on the athletic field, I’d say just as important as raw power, if not more so.
The OLY lifts teach an athlete how to move their bodies deliberately, explosively, and under control, which is extremely sport specific if you ask me…
Not to mention they’re some of the most fun you can have in the gym.
So, IMO, the best way to achieve explosive power that you can put to use athletically is a MIX of heavy lifting, explosive lifting, plyometrics, and the full olympic lifts.
To exclude any in favor of the other seems foolish to me.
[quote]alexus wrote:
Thanks for your response.
My thought…
Is that it would be possible to stand up more weight if the lifter was technically proficient and used the stretch shortening reflex in the legs rather than not using the stretch shortening reflex in the legs (e.g., by the thighs smashing into the calves before the reflex kicks in or by the lifter not getting low enough under the weight for the stretch shortening reflex to kick in).
But then maybe I’m wrong.[/quote]
This may be true, however only a small portion of lifters fail the clean and jerk on the squat up from the clean, so for 95% of lifters it’s largely irrelevant
[quote]iVoodoo wrote:
I believe the biggest benefit of full range Olympic lifts for athletes is the powerful effect on body control and coordination.
As far as power development goes though, there are superior and more direct ways, IMO.
Hell, simply adding in a couple of vertical jumps daily will probably do more for your vertical than the OLY lifts alone.
Heavy squats are probably even more effective for most average athletes.
But body coordination is a huge skill on the athletic field, I’d say just as important as raw power, if not more so.
The OLY lifts teach an athlete how to move their bodies deliberately, explosively, and under control, which is extremely sport specific if you ask me…
Not to mention they’re some of the most fun you can have in the gym.
So, IMO, the best way to achieve explosive power that you can put to use athletically is a MIX of heavy lifting, explosive lifting, plyometrics, and the full olympic lifts.
To exclude any in favor of the other seems foolish to me.
[/quote]
Agreed with the conclusion, although I don’t see how anyone would neglect any part of that. All olympic weightlifters will be doing the heavy lifting, explosive lifting and full olympic lifts. And some do the plyometrics, so you just need to look at that to see you can’t pick and chose some. I don’t really see the point in an athlete doing plyometrics on top of all that. If speed is necessary in their sport they are already doing a lot of sprinting and sports specific agility things in their sports training, do they really need to do box jumps and other random stuff on top of that? I don’t really think so
[quote]alexus wrote:
Thanks for your response.
My thought…
Is that it would be possible to stand up more weight if the lifter was technically proficient and used the stretch shortening reflex in the legs rather than not using the stretch shortening reflex in the legs (e.g., by the thighs smashing into the calves before the reflex kicks in or by the lifter not getting low enough under the weight for the stretch shortening reflex to kick in).
But then maybe I’m wrong.[/quote]
The faster you go down the faster you come up. An example is dropping a basket ball the harder you throw it down the faster and higher it comes up.
[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
[quote]alexus wrote:
Thanks for your response.
My thought…
Is that it would be possible to stand up more weight if the lifter was technically proficient and used the stretch shortening reflex in the legs rather than not using the stretch shortening reflex in the legs (e.g., by the thighs smashing into the calves before the reflex kicks in or by the lifter not getting low enough under the weight for the stretch shortening reflex to kick in).
But then maybe I’m wrong.[/quote]
This may be true, however only a small portion of lifters fail the clean and jerk on the squat up from the clean, so for 95% of lifters it’s largely irrelevant
[/quote]
hmm. that is a very good point. though… one can move more weight on them if one makes them pylometric (if one does time the bounce right).
take the point about the speed…
No, O-lifts are not plyometric. The definition of plyometric requires there to be very little contact time with the floor, according to Mel Siff in Supertraining >0.15 seconds.
But are the O-lifts a good way of developing explosive power that would carry over to jumping performance, which i believe is what you are asking, is a different question. And to that, the answer is yes. However, there will b e some variations of the lifts that are better/ worse than others for improving jumping.
[quote]alexus wrote:
[quote]The Ox Man wrote:
[quote]alexus wrote:
Thanks for your response.
My thought…
Is that it would be possible to stand up more weight if the lifter was technically proficient and used the stretch shortening reflex in the legs rather than not using the stretch shortening reflex in the legs (e.g., by the thighs smashing into the calves before the reflex kicks in or by the lifter not getting low enough under the weight for the stretch shortening reflex to kick in).
But then maybe I’m wrong.[/quote]
This may be true, however only a small portion of lifters fail the clean and jerk on the squat up from the clean, so for 95% of lifters it’s largely irrelevant
[/quote]
hmm. that is a very good point. though… one can move more weight on them if one makes them pylometric (if one does time the bounce right).
take the point about the speed…
[/quote]
Very few guys at the World stage don’t bounce. They will catch the bounce but when it’s ‘really heavy’ they can’t do it on timing alone. You have to be strong to use the bouce when it’s heavy. Take 10-15kg off and all good lifters will bounce.
Koing
[quote]Koing wrote:
[quote]dreamboatannie wrote:
I like the power versions for most of my athletic teams. The thing I really like about the full versions is that it teaches an athlete to absorb force and then immediately react against that force.[/quote]
That is the biggest thing about the full lifts, the ability to absorb force. As well as being able to shift more weight.
It doesn’t take that long to learn the full lifts if taught correctly. The main issue is that non oly coaches don’t teach the 1st pull so the athletes have a BS first pull and it doesn’t setup a 2nd pull correctly. I saw 7 rowers do power cleans where the bar didn’t touch the thighs/ hips at all. T hey were doing reps with 50kg. F0ck knows their coach taught them but it was clearly wrong. They were receiving it badly backwards with leaning backwards too much. Only one received the bar properly.
Koing[/quote]
Amen. I’d like to say the other big thing about the full lifts for athletes (to me)—flexibility and mobility under heavy load. It may not translate directly to athletic power production, but it a) keeps you mobile/flexible at the hip, knee, shoulder and T-spine and b) it makes you stronger in these extended pseudo end-range positions, which helps prevent injury. And as long as you can do these lifts properly, you don’t have to put a ton of time in every damn session to dedicated flexibility work, which is boring as fuck and also takes time up that could be used doing more productive things for power and strength. The flexibility is built into the movement itself.
[quote]Swolegasm wrote:
The faster you go down the faster you come up. An example is dropping a basket ball the harder you throw it down the faster and higher it comes up.[/quote]