Old and Slow

[quote]Dude623 wrote:
Just a little update protocol is working good, currently on a 2 week offence cycle that is working well everybody is stepping up a couple levels , three more days to go . Have been sparring full 20-30 minutes a night four times a week. One night I did 5 6minute rounds with a opponent swap halfway. I think my timing is as good as it has ever been . The HMWU is allowing me to work at levels that I had not been pushing in ten years. Also speed is coming back slowly. due to left ankle injury I have only put 4 miles in in the last 7 days, but lots of skipping rope and burpees.

Need some input on making the joint pain go away, currently taking 3-4 fish oil pills per week. Not big on supplements , but if you know of something that really works let me know. The HMWU is allowing me to really cause the joint pain now that I am upping the intensity of my WO’s. All in all this is working, weight/bulk is coming off, speed is coming back. I am thinking that I will take a fight again if it comes up, I plan on making some trips to Lansing and GR and sparring in the Feb.[/quote]

The bold is most definitely in my wheelhouse. My time is coming sporadic but I will make this something of a “first free time priority”, if this is still going on.

I gather the ankle is the joint pain that is the problem? Or is it general aches?

Do you already have some kind of dx? How long? Symptoms? Palliative and provocative activities and tx?

Usual caveat being that nothing over the internet should be construed as establishing a doctor patient relationship and I am going to have to be pretty damn general without an exam.

Regards,

Robert A

Robert - Thanks for the reply, the HMWU is working great. I am just looking for something to reduce the sore joints. Hoping that there is something other than fish oil as a nutritional supplement that I could be taking that would help out. Its not like its stopping me from doing anything at all just a pain that I wouldn’t mind not being there. I have been sparring really hard by anybody’s standard for two weeks. I am going to cut back to 2 days a week for a bit just to give everybody a break (1-2wks). The ankle injury is healing when I stretch my Achilles I have a burning sensation in the anterior ankle (its getting better) and point tenderness. I should be running again within a week.
If I had to pick a couple points where it seems worse it would be the hands and shoulders/neck. Sitting sedentary makes it worse. Not working out would help I am sure. The HMWU makes working at a higher level possible. Any suggestions are appreciated.

[quote]Dude623 wrote:
Robert - Thanks for the reply, the HMWU is working great. I am just looking for something to reduce the sore joints. Hoping that there is something other than fish oil as a nutritional supplement that I could be taking that would help out. Its not like its stopping me from doing anything at all just a pain that I wouldn’t mind not being there. I have been sparring really hard by anybody’s standard for two weeks. I am going to cut back to 2 days a week for a bit just to give everybody a break (1-2wks). The ankle injury is healing when I stretch my Achilles I have a burning sensation in the anterior ankle (its getting better) and point tenderness. I should be running again within a week.
If I had to pick a couple points where it seems worse it would be the hands and shoulders/neck. Sitting sedentary makes it worse. Not working out would help I am sure. The HMWU makes working at a higher level possible. Any suggestions are appreciated.[/quote]

OK, no problem there. I do want to point out thought that the warm up doesn’t do a damn thing. YOU do it. It only “works” because of the lessons you learned by paying the fuck attention for all these years. I am not joking when I say high mileage. IF you doubt how important that is give it to one of the teenagers you work with. Watch what they come up with. Either nothing, or they will do the fucking world for a warm up.

General Caveat: Nothing below is intended to be, nor could ever be, a substitute for actual evaluation and diagnosis. We are both “in the game” and know that trying to internet the eval, dx, and tx process is a soup sandwich. I am not YOUR doctor.

Than being said…

Supplement/diet advice:

This is the general “Anti excess inflammation” supplement/diet regimen that I am comfortable giving to damn near anyone or group of people. If you have a particular issue with blood thinners, allergies, etc. or you are forwarding this to people with those or other issues than that has to be addressed. Otherwise this is my “safe” recommendation, and I am basically just lifting it from Dr. David Seaman and making minimal modifications. The goal isn’t to completely halt inflammation, and hence healing, but to normalize it.

Multivitamin or B-Complex

  • This is just a shotgun. Unfortunately good multivitamins can cost quite a bit. A general guide line is a “one a day” is useless because only less bio-available forms of minerals can be used if you have to cram it all into one pill. There are some that are completely against multi’s as a rule because of competition/uptake issues. There are some good articles on this site about it.

The B-complex in leu of a multi is a cheap way to feel better. If you aren’t taking a multi than a B-complex is great. I like one’s that have plenty of B-6, but go ahead and buy at Costco, Sam’s, Walmart if you want. You can also freak out about binding agents and go all natural. Whatever.

Magnesium
-400 to 1000mg per day. It needs to be a “high grade” form for best effect. In theory we want at least 6mg per Kg of body weight. Just take some. Don’t take it with calcium as the body will absorb the calcium preferentially, in a CalMag supplement the Mg is to help get the calcium. My recommendation is to take ZMA before bedtime. The stuff Biotest sells is priced better than competitively and you support the playground we are in now. The zinc is great for immune function in high stress lifestyles, but as a critical care paramedic I assume your life is all blondes and blowjobs so that is no big deal right?

EPA/DHA (this gets called Fish Oil a lot)
-The research and studies are based on the amount of these two specific omega 3’s and not just “oil”. Recommended dose is however much “oil” gets you to a total of 1-3 grams of EPA plus DHA. Knowing this puts a lot of the “bargain” brands in the “expensive” category. I keep a bottle of “what not to buy” around so when I have this talk with patients I can show them the label and explain they would only get 10 days out of 120 capsules if they cheap out. The Flamout stuff Biotest sells gets this done in one half to one full dose a day so it is actually some of the “cheapest” fish oil you can get. Keep it in the fridge. It is called “fish oil”. No part of that screams let it get really warm.

Vitamin D
-This gets written about more and more. A friend who is a PCP is having great success doing bloodwork and prescribing boluses. General advice is going to be to start at 400 IU per day, though it can be taken in bulk a every couple days. Plenty of folks get up to huge numbers. I am pretty comfortable letting the weekly total drift well above RDA levels(7,000IU) without serum monitoring, especially in winter. If you can get your serum VitD checked than it is advisable to do so. If you are deficient this can make you a new man.

Those are the “Staples”

Some other things that you might consider are

Proteolytic Enzymes
-A lot of different brands here. Dose is 200-400mg a day for general and 1000-4000 if recovering from an injury. Some people love these. Others just take NSAIDs if they are going to pill it up. I can’t fault either logic.

Turmeric(Curcumin)
-Again, some fucking love this angle. Biotest makes an extract that seemed to work pretty good for myself. Some people go all in for this stuff, to others it is just another COX inhibitor.

Glucosamine and Chondroitin
-Research goes both ways on this. Some people love it. Others not so much. I sure as shit wouldn’t buy this instead of one of the staples, but it is certainly something to consider.

Cissus Quadrangulus
-I have heard some fantastic success stories with this. However the plural of anecdote is not data. At some point I also start to wonder why people are chasing a bunch of “natural” extracts around and eschewing aspirin. Of course I wonder about lots of stuff.

Regards,

Robert A

Same Disclaimer Applies:

Ankle: We can talk more if it isn’t healing as you expect it to. Sometimes gentle distraction can do wonders for nagging joint injuries. Just a little bit of traction and ROM can be great. Other times soft tissue problems need addressed.

Neck/shoulders: You mentioned posture here. Without any evaluation I am shooting in the dark, and if I have to do that I shoot where targets are statistically most likely. Thoracic extension is a frequent issue. A whole lot of cervical pain can get fixed by improving shitty upper thoracic and lower cervical mobility instead of chasing around the location of the pain and focusing on the often herniated and/or degenerated mid cervicals. Foam roller extensions, wall angels, etc. work well.

Shoulder internal rotation seems to shit the bed if the above is a problem as well.

I am just going to link to KMC’s awesome “Mobility for Old Farts Thread” because he did a fantastic job compiling a bunch of info there.

If any of the exercises help, than work them into the HMWU or, if they tire you out, do them as a cool down.

Hands: If this is joint pain, than which joint?

Anything you can think of to add would help narrow this down.

Hope some part of it helps.

Regards,

Robert A

Wow thanks for giving of your time and energy (you must be on the west coast). This is what I need to try. I will keep notes and report back. I have always been kind of anti supplement (I really prefer a double blind study on everything). But a lot of it makes sense and I need to get over it period. I see you are burning the late oil ( I had a bad shift and can’t sleep) my sleep cycle is jacked right now. But really thank you for taking the time to help me on this I will get it all in the AM , except for the Flameout I will order that.

I agree with Robert’s hypothesis about the cause of your neck and shoulder pain (a Kyphotic posture, likely being exacerbated by all of the boxing and sparring you’ve been doing), but Inwould give you slightly different advice about how to remedy the problem.

What you need to do is to:

  1. Stretch (light, passive static stretches lasting 60 seconds work best for getting muscles to relax and eventually lengthen) the chronically tight muscles- the pecs (major and minor), the scapular protractors (pec minor and Serratus Anterior), the internal rotators (Subscapularis, Supraspinatus, lats, and pecs), and scapular elevators (Upper Trapezius and Levator Scapulae).

  2. Strengthen the chronically loose/weak muscles-Scapular Retractors (Rhomboids and Middle Traps), Thoracic Spinal Extensors (Longissimus Thoracis, Iliocostalis Thoracis, Spinalis Thoracis, Semispinalis Thoracis, and Rotatores Thoracis), Scapular depressors (Lower Traps), and External Rotators (Infrasoinatus and Teres Minor).

You can add some soft tissue work for the chronically tight muscles if you have time, but performing soft tissue work on the already chronically tight muscles is pretty much going to do you diddly squat for solving your problem (it can feel good, but I would place it last in terms of priority).

So, thoracic extensions or rolling the upper back are pretty much a waste of time for actually solving the problem (fixing your posture), but can feel good and would be fine to put in your pre workout warm-up if you wanted. Wall Extensions/Slides/Angels are a good strengthening exercise for the chronically weak muscles (but, depending on your level of tightness doing them while laying on the floor can be a better starting place for some people) but should be included into your actual workouts (I would do some both prior to your boxing training and after you are done).

You should definitely include some dedicated low intensity static stretching post workout (2+ hours post, when your body has had s chance to cool down/return to homeostasis/it’s “natural/true” state) as well though. 3 sets of 60 seconds per side per stretch focusing on the specific muscles you are tight in done every day (7 days a week); you can also do them as you are winding down at the end of the day before you go to bed to put your body into an already Parasympathetic Nervous system (PNS, Rest and Digest) physiological state thus making your sleep more sound/productive (which will improve your overall recovery as well).

This is what recent data and anecdotal evidence shows is the most effective (both in terms of ROM gains and recovery from intense exercise) form of stretching, which I know is quite different from what many of us were taught or have been implementing in our own training (myself included).

Sento - Thank you for taking the time, I have been reading KMC’s thread. Lots of stuff to digest and implement. I am going to sit down this week and make some changes to the HMWU and I will give the 2 hour prehab slot a try.

Sento - took your advice on trying to get some release of tension around the scapula’s with a foam roller. What I found was a new way to roll that upper thoracic spine scapula area. I did all the normal stuff with the roller in a horizontal orientation. I felt like I was missing something so I oriented it vertically along the spine from my tailbone to my neck and kinda worked I in deep next to the spine (PVC would have worked better in hindsight), then worked it laterally over the scapula’s and wow that worked big time. I would say that just about all the tension came out. This will be a daily thing after lifting from now on. So thanks for the prodding.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
I agree with Robert’s hypothesis about the cause of your neck and shoulder pain (a Kyphotic posture, likely being exacerbated by all of the boxing and sparring you’ve been doing), but Inwould give you slightly different advice about how to remedy the problem.
[/quote]

Actually, I was trying to go out of my way not to state any kind of differential diagnosis/hypothesis without more info. I picked exercises that are general and I have never seen be significantly, provably damaging even if they don’t help.

I have seen people who were so jacked up that “strengthening” exercises were damaging, at least the more conventional ones, granted those folks were failed surgical patients.

The foam roller seems to work because the only real negative I have seen is soreness from excessive use. Most people start rolling and figure out if it is actual spinal motion that is more therapeutic, or using it as self massage, or just sort of “stretching” their “chest”(int GH rotators), etc. I wasn’t trying to venture into d/dx to working dx to tx territory. This could be because I am less confident in my ability, or less able, than you to dx over the internet, or that I am just a little tiny girl bitch when it comes to med-mal liabilities.

I have seen cases where both “stabilize takes care of ROM” and “mobilize, then facilitate” paradigms worked, or didn’t.

I don’t know what patient base you have compared to what I get though, so I may also be a product of that.

Regards,

Robert A

EDTA: I have tried doing the stretch/mobility later deal in the past. I think it worked fantastic, but my compliance with it sucked. So, being my own worst enemy I tend to stretch immediately after working a muscle in the gym (a la DC) or after the workout is finished, because at least then I do it. I should really give the 2 hour window thing a dedicated run though.

[quote]Dude623 wrote:
Sento - took your advice on trying to get some release of tension around the scapula’s with a foam roller. What I found was a new way to roll that upper thoracic spine scapula area. I did all the normal stuff with the roller in a horizontal orientation. I felt like I was missing something so I oriented it vertically along the spine from my tailbone to my neck and kinda worked I in deep next to the spine (PVC would have worked better in hindsight), then worked it laterally over the scapula’s and wow that worked big time. I would say that just about all the tension came out. This will be a daily thing after lifting from now on. So thanks for the prodding. [/quote]

I give this out fairly often. If you have a longer roller it can be especially nice as a position for stretching or doing self relaxation of the chest muscles/int GH rotators coupled with or without upper thoracic extension.

If you are hitting posterior muscles more tennis balls, LAX balls, or specialized therapy doohickeys can work very, very well in that regard. Also if you feel like rolling is better as a “massage” type movement than a mobilization the Rumble Roller type products are a lot of fun.

This can be worked into the circumstantial part of the warm up if needed, done after the workout, or done much later if that works.

Again, nothing I have written is intended to establish any sort of doctor-patient relationship nor should it be used as a substitute for evaluation and treatment. It is just general information.

That said, I hope at least a little of it helps.

Regards,

Robert A

Robert- solid advise, I will be working in more as I go. I am real happy with the progress so far. Between you and sento I have a whole new bunch of options that just where not there before. I am confident that I will reach all my goals within 6 mos. then I will go from there.

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
I agree with Robert’s hypothesis about the cause of your neck and shoulder pain (a Kyphotic posture, likely being exacerbated by all of the boxing and sparring you’ve been doing), but Inwould give you slightly different advice about how to remedy the problem.
[/quote]

Actually, I was trying to go out of my way not to state any kind of differential diagnosis/hypothesis without more info. I picked exercises that are general and I have never seen be significantly, provably damaging even if they don’t help.

I have seen people who were so jacked up that “strengthening” exercises were damaging, at least the more conventional ones, granted those folks were failed surgical patients.

The foam roller seems to work because the only real negative I have seen is soreness from excessive use. Most people start rolling and figure out if it is actual spinal motion that is more therapeutic, or using it as self massage, or just sort of “stretching” their “chest”(int GH rotators), etc. I wasn’t trying to venture into d/dx to working dx to tx territory. This could be because I am less confident in my ability, or less able, than you to dx over the internet, or that I am just a little tiny girl bitch when it comes to med-mal liabilities.

I have seen cases where both “stabilize takes care of ROM” and “mobilize, then facilitate” paradigms worked, or didn’t.

I don’t know what patient base you have compared to what I get though, so I may also be a product of that.

Regards,

Robert A

EDTA: I have tried doing the stretch/mobility later deal in the past. I think it worked fantastic, but my compliance with it sucked. So, being my own worst enemy I tend to stretch immediately after working a muscle in the gym (a la DC) or after the workout is finished, because at least then I do it. I should really give the 2 hour window thing a dedicated run though.[/quote]

I hear you. I am fairly confident in giving general advise (and I would consider everything I gave to be general) due to having worked with quite a few clients who have had injuries or movement pattern compensations/postural dysfunctions and having great success helping them to relieve their pain (several had already tried other forms of treatment with little to no success and I even have a physical therapist and bodywork expert in the area that send people my way to help them further rehab once they do their thing with them).

Also I think the fact that I do combative arts and train under experts in the field and train and help train up and coming fighters, LEO’s, and regular Joes/Janes so I have a pretty good understanding of the common movement patterns and associated muscular imbalances that can result from them and eventually potentially lead to injury gives me a solid knowledge foundation to base my advice on. Had the subject be say pole vaulting, I probably would refrain from giving much advice.

Regarding stretching immediately post workout…

That’s ok, I’ve done it in the past, that’s what I was taught when I did my degree and what the major certifying bodies teach as well. If it is the only way you are going to do any type of stretching, then it’s better than nothing IME. But, new reasearch is mounting to suggest that this may not be the best way of doing things and could even potentially be detrimental to recovery and add to inflammation in the body.

One reason is because immediately post workout your tissues are more pliable than usual, your sensitivity to neuromuscular reflexes (specifically the Myotatic Reflex/Stretch Reflex) is dulled (due to fatigue), and as a result it is possible to “comfortably stretch” (or uncomfortably stretch if you are stretching DC style, which btw is fine, but not useful for recovery and generation) further than what your connective tissues are truly capable of doing without causing further micro damage. Any further micro trauma you cause to a muscle will result in an inflammatory response and this actually demand more recovery instead of helping one to recover. Micro trauma can also lead to an accumulation of scar tissue which can lead to pain and/or injury further down the line if not dealt with.

By allowing the body to fully cool down (the 2 hour post workout guideline is not set in stone, but is a good general time frame) and return to it’s “true/natural” state one is more accurately able to gauge the intensity of their stretches and avoid over stretching the tissues/causing further micro trauma. My preferred time for stretching is actually at the end of my day as I am winding down to go to bed as it fully relaxes my body and muscles, places my body in an more PNS state, and actually allows for deeper and more restful sleep; at least in theory, sometimes my son has other plans :wink:

Try it if you can.

Waited until later to stretch, no noted difference yet. It did take more effort to get on the floor to do it as I was being a couch potatoe after some heavy sparring last night.

How is your training? I believe you are training some young boxers, is Golden Glove season close?

Training is going good, I have slowed somewhat do to work getting in the way, we had two SAR call outs in the last 2 weeks, and I am taking Fire officer 1&2 three nights a week right now. Have been cutting it short with the two young guys only 3 times in last two weeks , but should have them both in the gym tonight .

Yes we are going to Saginaw to spare at a club there and maybe put them in the golden glove regionals. Keep in mind that they have only been at it with me a short time, around three months. But I will upload a sparring video of tonight if its not to ugly. I decided not to take them down to spar until states ( hockey) were done, the coach would be real pissed if I got one of his players hurt ( bell rung) before a regional game. We will go down to spare in a month or so, which is good after the slow down in the last 2 weeks. I want them to rock it for there first visit to another club. Video tonight or Thursday.

No practice tonight , forgot its winterfest this week. maybe by the weekend.

Here a video of the other night , nobody showed up so we warmed up the jab in this round. That was the first round, will have more of the other guys on Thursday. Keep in mind these guys have only been at it about 3 months. Just have been working my tail off between officer classes and we had 2 structure fires in the last two days that the temps where -20degrees. And as the title of the thread says old and slow is how I feel. The young man in the clip is my son he just turned 17, he is 6’ and 195. Starting to get fast, he thinks Mayweather is the shit like the rest of the world so he try’s to emulate what he sees. I have advised him that he will be larger than me when he’s finished growing and Mayweathers style may not be the most effective at that size. But he and the other kid are just beginning and I want to make it as fun as possible for them.- YouTube

Sorry I did not know how to link that correctly.

Fixed it, should be able to view it now. Did not realize it was set to private.

Preview:
I will try to post another clip of both the younger guys from the other night. None of the officers footage can be posted for obvious reasons. The two teens here have been at it for 90 days roughly, while sparring with them I try to jab a lot and rely on good defense. The about 8:38 one of them gets a stiff jab but he shakes it off. I am trying to get them used to sparring and setting up their offence so I am not doing to much punching. When you see me double up on the jab its because I had to pull it up early to avoid hitting them to hard. I then give them a little short jab. They know I won’t hit them very hard. Also I refrain from going offensive with them entirely at this point, I have told them I will go after them if they drop there guard or do something I don’t want them doing. It would be great to hear your thoughts on there sparring. They are just beginning to develop a style of there own.