A Question for Aragon about Supplements

Bigger Stronger Leaner
1

Aragorn -
In another thread- which I can’t find you mentioned how fighters typically are archaic in their
Use of supplements, you mentioned how they can aid in recovery.

I would love to her your thoughts on this elaborated a bit more
Any of you other peeps can chime in.

If you don’t know too much about me I can give you a quick rundown.

I am 41 and change. I weigh 175 -180 ish post training realitively lean
Long history of super jock stuff
Judo as a child , wrestling , track , cross country volleyball thru HS
Wrestling thru college two D1 programs, post college Greco local and international
Blah blah blah a marathon or two in the middle of school Judo and BJj through mid to late
Thirties competitively

Add that up and you got a lot of bad motor patterns
And a pretty banged up dude.

Mobility PVC lx ball all help - I’m educated a bit in that regards
I use a lot of ice, ice baths and Epsom salts

I curious about supplements I’m not a big user of them
Fish oil vitamin D. MSM curricumen or turmeric and glucosamine
That’s abou it.

Long term I have some creaky stuff
broken collar bone - and a creaky right shoulder that clicks
A tree growing out of my right knee like osgood slater
Elbow tendonitis in both sides

many sprained ankles, dislocated shoulder , torn oblique
Popped floating rib. ,busted rip or two
Broken metacarpal or two , broken toe and finger and meta tercel her end there

Ok that sounds depressing.
Lol
I guess I took the tape it ice it keep it going a bit too far

Basically I am looking for suggestions- of things I can do to alleviate some
Day to Day aches and pain.

I was a chiropractic student - took a massge license at one point and try to
Do much motility activation work etc

Lastly I am archaic - and completely ignorant of most supplements or protocols
Having mixed or little results

I am not embarrassed to admit that I am aging.
Nor to admit that I am a veteran rehabber or that
I am deathly afraid of any surgery.

I guess this a marathon of words to sort thru

Oh work is physical - I make television and film for a living
So work is Physical - tools - ladders ropes big heavy gear and long days
Often pairs with sitting and banging away on a laptop for a few hours

I’m just looking to keep it going

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Hey mate! Just saw this. I’d love to give my couple cents and hopefully some useful information to you. On my phone at the moment so i will check back in a little bit when i get my computer internet eolling. Thimb typing is irritating :stuck_out_tongue:

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Whew man. You read like Dave Tate’s nightmare! Lol. I am sorry to hear about all the injuries. You are not in an unusual position–many guys your age, both with and without injury lists like that, are pretty archaic on supplements in general and definitely of the “tape it, ice it, walk it off” category. My father certainly was during his competitive days.

And it ain’t no shame to be afraid of surgery either. Surgery is like passing in football: you might hit a big first down but 2 of the 3 things that can happen are bad. That said it probably needs to be on the consideration list long term and certainly only with doctors who deal with the athlete population–they understand guys like you and me, and that is invaluable because they understand how important a job well done and continued activity is to us.

This post will be in two parts: the first general and the second half supplement oriented. When I made that comment you refer to I was speaking of recovery in the muscle building/neurotransmitter refueling athletic sense regarding workouts, training and weight loss, not a rehabilitative or medical sense. However, I will do what I can to write to the best of my knowledge.

I would check for nerve damage on the loss of grip issue. That may be a sign of, for lack of a better word, “trapped” nerves (think ulnar nerve getting trapped by inflammation at the elbow joint/triceps and being restricted in its natural sliding action), or something more serious. That needs checked out by someone in person. However, given that it presents with elbow tendonitis I am inclined to believe it is inflammation based rather than actual nerve damage. The good news is that inflammation can be worked on.

Since you have a bit of background in chiropractic and massage you may already know about this but I would look into PNF stretches for your ulnar nerves, may also look under “neural flossing”. I would use the lax ball obviously on your lats, rear/anterior delts, pec minor, and the triceps/biceps, forearm. No doubt you already know that but if you don’t roll your lats or pec minor you may not be getting all of the benefit that you can as the ulnar nerve runs right by the insertions for those muscles and inflammation or chronic tightness there can contribute. If you have numbness in the tip of your ring finger that also tends to point to inflammation and nerve entrapment (numbness/tingling can also present in middle/pinkie fingers). Train the wrist extensors and in addition to that stretch your forearm flexors religiously. Again you probably know all this.

So–neural flossing/PNF stretches/“nerve glide” for the ulnar nerve, if done daily or preferably several times daily, can help with the grip issue and tendonitis outside of the soft tissue work. You can google those but here is one video: Radial Nerve Flossing - Great Results - Ask Dr. Abelson - YouTube

This is a brief overview that focuses more on the radial nerve but has a good summary. Can also do the wall stretch he shows you with your fingers up (like a normal leaning against the wall motion), and lean your head away from the wall or down and away at a 45 deg. angle. I believe the fingers up variation hits the ulnar nerve more and you can look for other videos as well.

Btw I suggest getting a rolling pin for your forearms because it is easier to use that against a wall for some than chase a ball all around your house when you drop it :P. I suggest rolling the painful area by the elbow, not too hard but regularly.

Moving on–this is an educated guess, but it may benefit you greatly to work on strengthening the postural muscles more than simple mobility stuff. Mobility stuff is definitely great and I think ultimately very useful for a guy in your situation. However, strengthening muscles that are chronically used to support your body in proper posture may ultimately help take some pressure off of the joints themselves. Make the surrounding musculature both strong and enduring and you may be able to reap some benefit to lessened joint pain. This of course is unglamorous and means you’ll need to work all the areas you would probably rather not.

Plantar fasciitis is a bitch and a half. Your tight peroneals and calves are contributing to that issue in a huge huge way however. That needs to be worked on asap with mobility and soft tissue work (you are already sick of hearing that because it is both tedious and you already know that lol). I have the feeling that loosening up both of those will very much help your p.f. problems. I would also consider a “boot” to sleep in, for the short term

There’s probably more I could say, but I feel like it’s time to move on.

Supplements: Item 1) I am not sure where your intake lies on the dose curve, but this is the super brief nutshell of things.

Fish oil is absolutely excellent. You already use it and know it. Good job and keep at it. I am not sure how much you are currently using but in terms of dose it is recommended to have between 6-10 grams of the EPA/DHA combined. It has been recommended in the past that if dealing with long standing deficiency it may be appropriate to go up to even 15+ grams for a week or so. This is not “fish oil” but the key omega-3s in said fish oil that we are talking about. Typically each capsule will contain somewhere in the neighborhood of 300-500 mg of the key ingredients combined. These two key compounds are the ones that have all the anti-inflammatory and health benefits, not the “fish oil” itself. Generally speaking, 6-10 g is perfectly sound long-term and “megadosing” is unneeded. This said, I have seen people benefit from a short stint at the megadose when starting, although it is not something I recommend as necessary if you intend to make Omega 3 intake a normal part of your supplementation. After taking fish oil at doses high enough to reach this level (~10 g) for a time you will not need to reach the upper threshold, but stay around 6 g.

Vitamin D–Excellent, nothing more to say. I am not sure how much you are taking but I prefer to go in daily doses of 5000-10,000 IU, or to do 3x weekly doses of say 35,000 IU. If that sounds absurd, don’t worry. About 30 minutes of whole body sun exposure yields between 10,000-20,000 IUs of natural-made vitamin D goodness. This means the doses we are talking about taking via supplementation are not out of left field but are actually very normal. I personally tend to go to the high end of this (even up to taking 20,000 IU daily) because vitamin D is dirt cheap but that is me and I will not recommend that to anyone.

MSM/Glucosamine–Another good supplement, however I personally have not noticed much help, indeed mostly GI tract upset with me. That said I know enough people that swear by it that I consider it unwise to ignore their combined testimony and I certainly do not think it can do any harm, as well as being cheap, so keep it in there.

Curcumin and turmeric are very good. Curcumin is a natural painkiller and anti-inflammatory that seems to have much less side-effects than NSAIDs during long term use. I do not know how much you are taking. Typically doses between 500 mg and 2000 mg are used (TOTAL daily dose, not a single dose). Starting on the low end and working up. Generally speaking taken like Aleve, twice a day. While effective as an antioxidant and also as a mild anti-inflammatory I am not sure whether it will be able to curb your daily aches.

Rhodiola Rosea–has been shown to significantly inhibit COX-2 (read: anti-inflammatory) and other markers of inflammation including but not limited to phospholipases, neuroprotective benefits against Alzheimers, oxidative stress and free radicals, and anti-anxiety benefits. I have never tried this supplement for inflammation management, I have only tried it with a goal of increased strength and training response. It has been effective for these ends as it has a pronounced effect on the nervous systems ability to deal with stress, but I have no direct experience with issues that you are facing so I have no ability to tell you anything except the research literature. As with all things the research is primarily animal based and in vitro studies on human tissue (not ingested). Therefore it is not certain whether it will contain all of these benefits in normal dosage levels (typically below 60 mg/day “rosavins”, split into two).

Dose is not to exceed 60 mg rosavins until you have determined whether or not you tolerate it well–it has been linked to insomnia and irritability above said dose–and in any case it is unlikely to produce an increased effect far above 60 mg/day so it is useless to go too far over that. I would start below that at say 30 mg and work up if I chose to go that route. I would also cycle the supplement on and off, say 3 weeks on to 1 off or something similar. “Rosavins” are the key compound, and as it is an herbal extract you should look on the bottle and unfortunately you may have to do some mental math to figure out the actual dose of the key ingredient rather than “extract” as they like to list it. I.E. “dose 250 mg rhodiola r. extract, standardized to 2% rosavins” means you only get 5mg rosavins in a dose.

Creatine may even be of value, although this is thoroughly speculative on my part. In general anything that increases joint hydration (a layperson’s term) also has a very good chance of decreasing joint pain or inflammation. Because creatine increases intramuscular water retention it may lead to fringe benefits on pain around joints. Joint hydration is a bigger issue than just creatine and I am running out of room here in my post and time. However, overall water intake and hydration levels are very important for cushioning joints and vertebrae and may end up helping.

I hope to write more at another date, hopefully tomorrow. Right now I’ve run out of time, my apologies. I don’t think I was able to add a whole lot to the discussion yet that was heretofore unknown, but perhaps in time I will. As it stands I’d check out Eric Cressey for your postural and rehab movement choices: that man is a genius. He has a free newsletter.

4

Thank you for this amazing detailed reply-

I will reread this and post more when I can do so on a laptop.
there is allot to absorb here- thank you.
I do appreciate your response, and I imagine that I did know you where speaking on
muscular recovery - but I figured, why not.
I might be on one end of the bell curve but perhaps this will be an informative post for some of the younger
athletes who may read .

some random take aways.
I do read and get Eric Cressey’s news letter, read up young bucks its good shit.
his magnificent mobility is a good start for anyone.
mobility wod is ok too.
I have a mobility thread kicking along somewhere in the Over 35 - it was a sticky.
here it is. - mostly a collection of links and helpful articles.

The tendonitis- and the subsequent inflammation , makes particular symptoms hard to track , or get sorted on your own.
I did have some ultrasound treatments and those worked very well-
I took a long break from things in training that aggravated tendonitis- but much of what I do at work
does some harm using hand tools and coiling cable both do some harm.

hmmm sleeping in a boot. Id like to think those days are past- but that might be what I need
maybe I can get away with the sock and some other shoes.

the calves and peroneals are a pain in the ass to work on but it needs doing.

I am not that organized in knowing how much of anything I take- you see the theme here.

I didnt think my injuries where that extensive til I started typing them out
lol- I guess this is what competing in the era of ‘Gable Trained’ means as you get older.

I think much of this is that for 4 or 5 months I have be squatting 3x a week.
(I mean who wouldnt if they could)

5

I’ve sucessfully got rid of plantar fasciitis following Mike Robertson’s quick and dirty cure: stretches for both the gastrocnemius and soleus, rolling the fascia, and actually doing anterior tibialis strengthening exercises. Curcuma and a ton of vegetables may have helped with the inflammation, too.

6

kmcnyc

Just letting you know, I haven’t forgotten about this thread, just don’t have the time to write a long detailed research post right now

1 Like
7

kmcnyc,

I posted this in Irish’s old log before he moved it to this board.

[quote] SomeRetarded GunMonkey on the internet wrote:
I like Dr. David Seaman’s recommendations. The following supplements and dosing recommendations are his. The comments are mine.

Multivitamin/mineral-Cheap is no good here. Anything that says once a day is probably a waste. I personally like Anabolic Labs, but you have to buy those from a vendor. The Whole Foods Cooperative has some decent brands. I know some very smart people disagree with a multi-vitamin in general and instead recommend something like SuperFood coupled with ElitePro. That is probably as good or better. I know all of this shit costs so I will say the following. If high end vitamins/SuperFood is out of the budget at least take a good B-complex, it is probably the cheapest way to feel better.

Magnesium- 400-1000mg/day. I know ElitePro is supposed to be fantastic. If cost is an issue, and with the rising cost of hookers how can it not be, ZMA is great too. I have not felt a difference between one or the other, although I am sold on the ElitePro being a better product.

EPA/DHA 1-3g/day. These is the active/studied ingredients in fish oil. Flameout is the ticket here. I have not found a cheaper way to get to this dose than Biotest. A full dose is 3 g, a half dose is 1.5 so I recommend at least taking a half dose a day. I have seen this be a huge game changer for people.

Vitamin D- dose can be 400-4000 IU/day. There is a lot of research on dosing and effects. Start taking some if you are not all ready. I have seen this make a difference for some.

I would like pretty much everyone on the planet to be taking the above. I can personally vouch for them.

Extra’s:

Proteolytic enzymes-taken on an empty stomach. 1000-4000mg/day in divided doses on. Maintenance is 200-400mg/day on an empty stomach.

Turmeric(Curcumin) 1-2 g/day. The Biotest brand looks good, but I do not have any personal miracle stories.

Hope this helps,
[/quote]

It is a 2011 post, but still make those recommendations as a starting point for supps. The goal isn’t to achieve a drug like effect, but more or less to just try to mitigate how fucked up diet can get when you have other things taking priority (work, family, etc.).

I am even more firm that a B-complex be taken, even if a good multi is taken in the morning. If you take a multivitamin in the morning, take the B at lunch/during the day. I have seen this make a huge difference in people and it is really, REALLY cheap and available. In one case an ER Physician has told me that if he takes the B too close to bedtime he gets weird dreams and that it must be “really strong”. The rest of the interaction consisted of me explaining to him that his diet is so fucked up that he is tripping balls over something he can buy at Wallmart for 2 dollars and this indicates that he was courting the kind of deficiency associated disease processes normally only heard of with medical boards exams, sailors in the era of tall ships(we have enough Brits here to yell Limey!), and third world refugee’s.

I think ZMA at night makes great sense, and again it is cheap if you buy online, again I have seen a quality mag supplement be a game changer for people who complain of aches or spasms in muscle.

I still think the Biotest Brands for fish oil/EPA and DHA and ZMA are very good values.

Regards,

Robert A

8

Ithanks for all the input fellas.
I do appreciate it.

I hve made some good good headway on calf /ankle tightness and some acceptable
Progress on the plantar facititis
I found a brand of kris oil that has as hit ton of EPA dha fat and have added that.

RobertA thanks I will read through this again. Thank you

9

Shit. I meant to pass along a tip I just got from a coworker,
a camera operator I work with aside from being very talented

He has a very good knowledge of rehab yoga etc
we where talking about using an LX ball
And he is like do you keep it in the freezer?

Needless to say I picked up my jaw and tried it -
Threw an lx ball in the freezer it’s Great
Cryo therapy lx ball roling

10

Hunt.
And eat what you kill.
Deer, duck, turkey, hell rabbit ain’t bad either.
And eat everything.

There is nothin “magical” about fish, or fish oil. Oh, except for the little fact that it is the only animal you can buy at a grocery store that is wild. And not fed by “us” unless of course you buy the farm raised crap.

Deer have the same omega-3/omega-6 ratio as any fish, because they are wild too, and eat what nature intended them to…just like the magical fish.

And for god sakes eat the whole animal. The arctic explorer’s at the turn of the century couldn’t figure out why they all came down with scurvy while none of the natives did. The natives didn’t have secret orange tree’s in their lodges, but when they killed a moose they ate everything. Including what they described as a delicacy, the two balls of fat above the kidneys, what we call the adrenal glands. You know, were vitamin C is concentrated. Go figure.

The explorers thought they were getting over by taking the steaks and roasts. The natives just thought it was funny. That’s the shit they fed to the dogs.

Have you ever seen how fish oil pills are processed?
I’m gonna go grill some venison thank you.

How the hell did generations of humans inland, without ever seeing an ocean or an magical ocean fish in their life ever survive?
They ate wild.

LB

11

[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
Some atrophy on my outer hands and feet- and loss of grip (recent)
And recently some sever tight ness in my proneals ankles and calves
And what I have figured out is some plantar facitis.
[/quote]

kmcnyc,

I re-read this (atrophy) thread and this popped out at me. Can you expound on this? When you say hands and feet are you saying you have weakness and atrophy in all four distal extremities?

Regards,

Robert A

12

LB
thanks for your input… and your thoughts

Robert A

I have very pronouced high arches, which I suppose over time are carrying less muscle then when I was younger

my outer hands from pinky to wrist are also - softer - less dense then they used to be-
when I played judo/wrestling etc my neck is much smaller too-

kmc

13

[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
LB
thanks for your input… and your thoughts

Robert A

I have very pronouced high arches, which I suppose over time are carrying less muscle then when I was younger

my outer hands from pinky to wrist are also - softer - less dense then they used to be-
when I played judo/wrestling etc my neck is much smaller too-

kmc[/quote]

Ok,

I literally have to head out the door but this is where my head is at.

Atrophy because you simply are not using the muscles in your hands and neck is expected. To an extent the same can be expected of your feet as well.

Atrophy can also be a sign of a mechanical issue resulting in neurological impairment. Most folks think of carpal tunnel as an example here. Usually this would not be bilateral. With your hands AND feet being involved I start to get concerned about some reasonably scary stuff.

Autoimmune issues

Infectious disease (your upstate NY ties make Lyme an easy culprit, though plenty of other shit could fit)

Metabolic disease

etc.

This is beside the fact that you need your hands and mobility to earn money to feed your family and even if it is mechanical, having shit wrong with every extremity is a flag.

Is this atrophy occurring symmetrically (same on both sides)?

Is it happening despite efforts to curb it? (so are you using your hands the same but they are getting weaker?)

I am probably being overly cautious, but I have seen one fatal cancer case and another rare auto-immune dz. in the last 3 months that both presented as simple cases initially.

Regards,

Robert A

14

Robert A -
thank you for your thoughts- seriously.
when you are back from snifing cocaine of strippers asses
and crushed your last bourbon… Id love to here your thoughts.

15

[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
Robert A -
crushed your last bourbon
[/quote]
First, and most important.

Elmer T. Lee, this stuff is very smooth.

As for those symptoms:

Taken in parts they all make sense. I don’t really think there is a greater systemic problem. In fact, I think it is unlikely. However, when I am told of issues in all four extremities intellectual honesty means I consider it. Then there is the issue of ruling out shit that can wreck you the fastest/worst.

I certainly wouldn’t try to talk you out of getting some blood work done at your PCP’s office (or ordering labs out of pocket) to start the process of making sure that your problems are all in the locomotor wheelhouse and not something for internal medicine. Exactly which tests to order, past standard blood panels (CBC, chem panal, fuck it throw in a free and total test, Vit D, may be something else) is out of my lane.

Not at all.

Growing old sucks, it just beats the alternatives.

I will say that the internal med stuff is out of my lane. Pursue that with your doc.

Now, I will also state that we can do some work assuming that your problem(s) have the most likely causes. Namely, you are just beat up from your feet up.

I am going to try to get some general info on likely causes up for you in the next couple of days and maybe see if we can workout some type of plan of attack.

In the mean time, I would touch base with your PCP just for safety sake. If you are worried/OCD it might be for a reason.

1.) When were your most recent MRI’s and what were the findings?
2.) Have you been evaluated by a PT or DC recently? What were the findings?

Standard Disclaimer: I am not your doctor. The above should not be taken as, or used to substitute for, qualified medical advice based on direct evaluation.

Regards,

Robert A

16

I am a pretty big fan of formalizing the pre-hab and rehab work that we know works well. I wrote up the way I think about/approach getting in all that gay crap in Irish’s log. I think I posted it around the time I posted my hot toddy recipe.

If you are sort of hit and miss with mobility/pre hab work I think it would be worth a read. The trick is to just do the things that you know help.

Regards,

Robert A

17

From Irish’s log

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_boxing_fighting_mma_combat/log_o_the_irish_20?id=5318526&pageNo=9

I also posted some general stuff on piriformis, hamsting, and plantar/foot work on the above page.

The goal setting was for Irish, not The Black Irish Bastard, but here it is.

For you I would suggest the goal of becoming the “Dangerous Old Man”. You may not be in competition any more, but that doesn’t mean you don’t have at least one more fight in you for anyone dumb enough to want it. The goal than is to support that. Basically, scary Dad.

[quote]Some Bourbon Soaked Chimp wrote:
I suggest some goal setting, with an eye towards the immediate future.

Based on your stated desires I gather that boxing is more important gym numbers, and that your career has to be a priority over either. Time is enough of an issue that 2 weight days a week are about all you have available. You are also coming off of illness and injury and have spent a decent amount of the last year dealing with somewhat minor, but still significant aches and pains (forearm, back, most recent back/leg, etc.) and that you have also been burned out from training several times. All of this needs to be addressed.

So, goals then:

GOAL: To get and stay healthy.
Secondary GOAL: To get stronger while continuing to progress as a fighter, which requires that you not be injured or run into the ground

I suggest we put you on what I have dubbed my “High Mileage” program/warm up. This only really works on people who have spent some serious time working through, and around injuries, and have enough experience to know what works for them. Hence, they have mileage. You fit. Much credit goes to Dan John for this. His Dan Gable warm up really opened up my eyes as to what I knew I needed to be doing. Really, let us just assume everything that follows was stolen from someone smarter than me.

Before and after every training session you will be in High Mileage mode.

Before your training proper, add the following steps.

1.) Circumstantial warm up

2.) General warm up

3.) Specific warm up

CIRCUMSTANTIAL

Here we address whatever you knew was fucked up when you walked in the gym. So, if your right shoulder is sore and tight from throwing jabs and hooks the previous boxing session, do a light stretching and warm up both to loosen up, get some blood flowing, and to make sure that it is only sore/tired, not injured. Pain here raises a flag.

You are high mileage. That means you will often be a bit banged up. This phase is about making sure it is something you can work through, as opposed to something that needs actual treatment.

Exercises in this phase consist of gentle stretching, mobility work, and light weight. I am a big fan of sets of 50-100 reps done with super light weights, bonus if the dumb bells are actually pink, just to get the blood flowing. I am also not above doing pushups from my knees, or non-weighted box squats or leg extensions if my quad is all bruised up.

If any of this is the wrong kind of painful, than that is important information. You probably will not break a sweat here. That is ok. None of this should negatively impact your workout. It should not be intense enough to make you tired.

GENERAL
This is what you know you should do before damn near any physical activity, just to get ready. Again, this is not to make you tired. It is to prime you to do the work.

In your case I suggest the following:

1.) Whatever mobility work you know works for you, plus whatever exercises you need to do for your shoulder. If that means 10 minutes of foam rolling and an elaborate shoulder warm up, that is fine. If it is just the complexes from DeFranco you posted earlier in the log, all the better.
2.) 2-3 Sets of 10-15 Goblet squats. Go light. Just feel the movement
3.) 2-3 Sets of pushups. How many? Just a few. 15-25 reps are about right. Do these with an emphasis on control and stability. The set stops well before you feel like it is doing anything.
4.) 2-3 sets of only 2-3 pull ups/chin ups. Do these with the shoulder blade positioning that Aragorn recommended, and that you have got good results from. These are not to add volume, but to wake up the muscles that keep your shoulder stable.

You can rotate through the above circuit fashion, or do one after another. It does not matter. This is just to get you ready to workout. Also, the above should put at least a little stress on every muscle. So if while going through the above something hurts/feels off than give it some extra attention.

SPECIFIC
Go into whatever warm up you do for the first exercise of the day in the weight room or whatever you do for boxing. Yes the above gets done before every TRAINING session, not just when you are hitting the weights.

This is what you are doing NOW. The difference is that we have formalized the need to pay attention to fatigue from prior exercises/training/life, mild hurts that can interfere with a good workout, and the possibility of injury.

If during the course of the above you find that you know something isnâ??t right, or is just too damn beat up than it will be treated one of 4 ways.

1.) A little extra warm up, it feels right. FIDO (fuck it, drive on). You are good to go.
2.) It feels ok after a little work but is still bugging you. Modify your weight room work to go easy. Exercises that include the muscle, or prompt the discomfort, should be of decreased intensity. 5/3/1 exercises, work up to the first set ONLY, than shut it down. Assistance and accessory level exercises are either light weights, or scrubbed.
3.) Hurts, but not in a scary way. Do a bunch of pump sets/light weight or bodyweight exercises. This is basically, rehab.
4.) It really hurts when you try 4. You are not hurt. You are injured. Treat it as such.

The goal here is to keep little things from turning into big things, and to set up a stop gap against running yourself into the ground. Sure, you will pay the opportunity cost of not getting stronger that day, but you will be recovering from injuries, and doing enough work to at least prevent deconditioning.

After the work out proper:

Now do all of the pre-hab work you know you should do, but donâ??t. You have written a lot about how doing a bunch of face pulls after weight training helps you. Do those here. Do a bunch. Do the things that help, but are fatiguing enough that you do not like to lead off with them. Farmer walks go great here. They suck as a prelude to heavy deadlifts.

So a bunch of face pulls, external rotations, and band pull a parts fit. I would suggest bodyweight lunges of all varieties. Start off with reverse lunges, and modify volume depending on how much it affects your boxing.

Also, stretch any and every muscle you hit with weights. If you do not have a go to stretch, look up the ones associated with DC training, but ramp the intensity of the stretch way, way down. The goal is to help with recovery, and to ward off the feeling of being tight after hitting the weights. If you are still tight going into the next session, it gets addressed during the circumstantial part of the warm up.

Foam rolling, tennis ball, stretching, and dealing with other hurts can go here as well. You can leave the gym exhausted, but do not leave it in pain.
[/quote]

Regards,

Robert A