[quote]lordstorm88 wrote:
Why would you do squats like this for oly lifting? As far as I’ve heard the only other generally used method of training squats is with a pause in the hole, not with a slow eccentric phase.[/quote]
I’m a PICP (Poliquin International Certification Program) Level 2 strength coach, and it’s just the way I was taught. Based on what I’ve been taught, any combination of number of reps and tempo yielding a set that lasts 0 - 20 seconds will work on relative strength, 20 - 40 seconds gives functional hypertrophy, 40 - 70 seconds hypertrophy, and 70 - 120 strength endurance. To me, it seemed like a good idea, as I was able to spend more time around my sticking point, which would serve to strengthen it (in my experience). Personally, I found that around my sticking point (which is just above parallel) is where I had to work the hardest to maintain the tempo. I’ve seen the tempo altered so that you pause in the hole, and/or pause at your sticking point. Glad to see those are viable options.
The PICP teaches you that the tempo by which you complete a lift is just another variable which can, and will, alter the training effect. I realize that this may be different than what is commonly accepted in this community, but it’s really just going by what I’ve been taught. Out of curiousity, can you see a downside to this? I’m quite new to olympic lifting and am trying to soak up as much info as I can.
Well olympic lifting is all about SPEED. There are tons of articles, mainly from russia talking about the fact that ideally, you want squats(even the heaviest attempts) to be pretty fast. No grinding it for 5 seconds or something. That should happen very rare.
In any case, I just don’t see the point of it from an oly lifting perspective. A good idea IMO to help with your sticking point is a pause at the bottom for ~3 seconds. Not only will this help your sticking point, if you do it explosively it will help in general with cleans that the catch is… less than beautiful.
Now I don’t know much about what you are doing so don’t give a lot of credit to my idea about it but I think a slow eccentric would help more with strengthening the joints and well as putting the muscles under pressure longer which would help with hypertrophy. That’s the only two reasons(that I’m aware of- I’m no coach or expert) I would ever do eccentrics slowly and the 2nd reason is really a moot point for olympic lifting.
Plus I’m not sure but it might make you slower in getting under the bar. In any case, try it out and see where it goes. Can’t hurt to do these for a month or two. Personally I’ve always done normal full squats. Sometimes with more bounce sometimes with less but still a bit of a bounce.
[quote]lordstorm88 wrote:
Well olympic lifting is all about SPEED. There are tons of articles, mainly from russia talking about the fact that ideally, you want squats(even the heaviest attempts) to be pretty fast. No grinding it for 5 seconds or something. That should happen very rare.
In any case, I just don’t see the point of it from an oly lifting perspective. A good idea IMO to help with your sticking point is a pause at the bottom for ~3 seconds. Not only will this help your sticking point, if you do it explosively it will help in general with cleans that the catch is… less than beautiful.
Now I don’t know much about what you are doing so don’t give a lot of credit to my idea about it but I think a slow eccentric would help more with strengthening the joints and well as putting the muscles under pressure longer which would help with hypertrophy. That’s the only two reasons(that I’m aware of- I’m no coach or expert) I would ever do eccentrics slowly and the 2nd reason is really a moot point for olympic lifting.
Plus I’m not sure but it might make you slower in getting under the bar. In any case, try it out and see where it goes. Can’t hurt to do these for a month or two. Personally I’ve always done normal full squats. Sometimes with more bounce sometimes with less but still a bit of a bounce.[/quote]
I see your point. The thing is, I can always get out of the bottom, that isn’t where I get stuck. When I squat (and I’m sure everyone here is the same), my ass is maybe 3-4 inches off the floor. I tend to get stuck around the 90degree mark or so. Actually, on some heavy singles, I will come out of the bottom, get stuck, go back down and try again. The most I’ve tried before ditching the bar is 4 times.
I do agree though; training it this way for a month or so is really the only way to learn whether it works for me or not.
Right, I thought you said your sticking point was right around parallel but its higher(same for me and most people). I think the most common thing to help with that is setting the bar at that height on a squat rack and then lifting it from there.
Generally though I think 10/12 months of the year the squats should be normal squats, especially for us who don’t squat 2xBW at LEAST.
[quote]lordstorm88 wrote:
Right, I thought you said your sticking point was right around parallel but its higher(same for me and most people). I think the most common thing to help with that is setting the bar at that height on a squat rack and then lifting it from there.
Generally though I think 10/12 months of the year the squats should be normal squats, especially for us who don’t squat 2xBW at LEAST.[/quote]
I do recall Pierre Roy saying that most people will stick around the same point, and that he uses back squat from the pins, set just below that point. He also mentioned back squats at a 33X0 (3 down, pause was to be taken at the sticking point rather than the bottom, explode from there, no pause) as another option.
I think there are endless paths to reach strong squats, with one being no more ‘right’ than the other (so long as they don’t produce or expose the athlete to injury).
[quote]lordstorm88 wrote:
Right, I thought you said your sticking point was right around parallel but its higher(same for me and most people). I think the most common thing to help with that is setting the bar at that height on a squat rack and then lifting it from there.
Generally though I think 10/12 months of the year the squats should be normal squats, especially for us who don’t squat 2xBW at LEAST.[/quote]
I do recall Pierre Roy saying that most people will stick around the same point, and that he uses back squat from the pins, set just below that point. He also mentioned back squats at a 33X0 (3 down, pause was to be taken at the sticking point rather than the bottom, explode from there, no pause) as another option.
I think there are endless paths to reach strong squats, with one being no more ‘right’ than the other (so long as they don’t produce or expose the athlete to injury).[/quote]
There is no point messing about with pins and stuff. Just load up on the FS and go at it. Squat daily and watch your FS go up every 2-3 weeks. You will miss a lot but you will also edge out 1-2kg every 1-2-3 weeks. The stronger you are the easier it will be to squat at any given weight.
Felt pretty good, not gone in with the best of lifting having only done 3 out of 5 sessions, Sn 120 twice, missed CJ 140 about 5x…only CJ 131 and 135, but whatever. I always fancy my chances in a comp
Sn
120x bit in front, whatever, going to go up
125x hmmmmm…not ideal…under the gun…will I bomb?!
125 booyah! +3kg pb! Nice! First 2 red plate Sn in comp!
CJ
135 easy enough
147.5 heaviest CJ in ages
152.5x had to follow myself, not much left to Jerk it after 2 CJ that I followed myself. Easier to follow myself on the Sn as the weights aren’t as heavy
125/147.5
272.5kg + 3.5kg PB
My 2 other Lifters
OxMan was injured but still took away comp Pb’s 80/95
Chad first comp, only 7hrs coaching with me 85/100 : first of my lifters to hit a bw Sn in comp!
Much more to come from the both of them, another comp at Woking in 5 weeks time
Chi smashed it completely
bw 66.5 or so
Sn
80
82.5 +2.5 PB
85 +5 PB
CJ
100
107.5 +0.5 PB
110 +3 PB
85/110
195 +7.5kg PB
He’s qualified for the Senior English Champs next year as a 16yr old 69 LOL. He aims to CJ 120 by the end of the year.
He’s done 6 comps this year and he’s NOT MISSED A SINGLE CLEAN AND JERK. 18 Clean and Jeks and ZERO misses. INSANE.
From last years best he is up
Sn 71 +14kg
CJ 90 +20kg
[quote]alexus wrote:
your sticking point on what? your back squat recovery?[/quote]
Not on recovery, but during the actual lift, where I get stuck on the concentric range.
[quote]Koing wrote:
There is no point messing about with pins and stuff. Just load up on the FS and go at it. Squat daily and watch your FS go up every 2-3 weeks. You will miss a lot but you will also edge out 1-2kg every 1-2-3 weeks. The stronger you are the easier it will be to squat at any given weight.
Koing[/quote]
I’ve actually seen some good results from doing pin work, both for myself and clients. To each their own I guess.
August 14/11
Clean and Jerk
40x3
50x2
60x2
70x1
75x1
80x1
84x1
88x1
90x1
92x1 PR
93x1 PR
94x0 missed the clean. left elbow was bugging me at this point, due to nasty wrist extensors. I have been neglecting my soft tissue work, and it shows. Time to get back on it.
80x0 was planning on backing off for doubles, but missed due to the elbow/wrist issues. Stopped lifting and started taking care of the tissue.
[quote]alexus wrote:
your sticking point on what? your back squat recovery?[/quote]
Not on recovery, but during the actual lift, where I get stuck on the concentric range.
[quote]Koing wrote:
There is no point messing about with pins and stuff. Just load up on the FS and go at it. Squat daily and watch your FS go up every 2-3 weeks. You will miss a lot but you will also edge out 1-2kg every 1-2-3 weeks. The stronger you are the easier it will be to squat at any given weight.
Koing[/quote]
I’ve actually seen some good results from doing pin work, both for myself and clients. To each their own I guess.
August 14/11
Clean and Jerk
40x3
50x2
60x2
70x1
75x1
80x1
84x1
88x1
90x1
92x1 PR
93x1 PR
94x0 missed the clean. left elbow was bugging me at this point, due to nasty wrist extensors. I have been neglecting my soft tissue work, and it shows. Time to get back on it.
80x0 was planning on backing off for doubles, but missed due to the elbow/wrist issues. Stopped lifting and started taking care of the tissue.
93kg (3kg PR)
If the worlds best coach told you to not do pin squats would you bother doing pin squats even if you had success with it? I would ditch it personally. Seriously mate, learn from others mistakes and don’t make them again. I know I’ve wasted time doing random sh!t that my lifters will not waste due to me telling them what the f0ck the deal is.
Nice CJ PB. Your issue looks to be just your weak squat. Chad, racked 110 but couldn’t get up, that will be easy to fix in time. Going to gun his FS up to 135/140 from 120 by the end of the year. Try and keep the bar a bit closer during yoru 2nd pull but it’s no real biggie issue. Jerk doesn’t look too bad.
careful, Koing, you are talking to a level 2 strength and conditioning coach
seriously, OP, koing knows his shit. look at what he can do and what the lifters he coaches can do. he’s been into oly lifting for far longer than you and me.
what the hell has a back squat got to do with olympic weightlifting? tell me which olympic lift involves anything resembling a back squat?
if you have a problem with clean recovery practice clean recovery. if you have trouble standing your ass up with the bar in the rack then practice standing yourself up with the bar in the rack.
i guess messing around with pins is a thing to do that might help… if it were done with a front squat. but back squats??? what are you doing those for??
[quote]Koing wrote:
If the worlds best coach told you to not do pin squats would you bother doing pin squats even if you had success with it? I would ditch it personally. Seriously mate, learn from others mistakes and don’t make them again. I know I’ve wasted time doing random sh!t that my lifters will not waste due to me telling them what the f0ck the deal is.[/quote]
When youre CJ PR is 93kg, anything works, doesnt mean that its optimal. Not everyone will listen, so if they want to learn the hard way, so be it.
I dont know why all you guys are giving 1llusion such a hard time about back squats.
Yes front squat are MORE important, but their are plenty of world class Weightlifters who back squat on a regular basis. Back squats are in most soviet programs just as much if not more then front squats and the Russians seem to be doing pretty well dont they, same thing goes for the Chinese. Hell even Abajeiv had some of his lifter do back squats, same thing goes with john broz and glen pendlay who both follow a version of the Bulgarian program.
If you could only do one, then front squats are the clear choice, but back squats are much easier for anyone who needs to do a high amount of volume to develop the lower body/posterior chain because more reps can be done with strict form sense the upper back is not as much of limiting factor.
[quote]debraD wrote:
Koing, I dreamt I was in London and I trained with you and your bros. F0cking smash it![/quote]
lol love it.
Well if your in London let me know. We can do some training
Koing[/quote]
I’m going to be in Scotland for a bit in the September but I don’t know what my mom has planned for me but if I’m going to be there I will let you know.
I thought you were going to have that 152.5kg C&J because the clean went up so nicely and the other jerks looked so good!
[quote]Koing wrote:
If the worlds best coach told you to not do pin squats would you bother doing pin squats even if you had success with it? I would ditch it personally. Seriously mate, learn from others mistakes and don’t make them again. I know I’ve wasted time doing random sh!t that my lifters will not waste due to me telling them what the f0ck the deal is.
Koing[/quote]
You’re damn right I would. This will likely be one of my last posts here, since I only came in to keep myself motivated to post better numbers, not to be ambushed regarding my programming. From my perspective, there is merit to do more than just front squat (gasp!). Peace out.
we usually get some pretty good discussions going on in this forum.
don’t go just because you want to do something that others might not think is best…
i’m currently doing starting strength trying to get my low bar back squat up. maybe it won’t help my cleans. other people don’t think it will help my cleans. pretty sure koing thinks it won’t help my cleans :-p
but i have an idea that it might just… (by teaching me hip drive that hopefully might then carry over to my front squat and eventually my cleans).
maybe i’m hopelessly misguided… but, whatever.
each of us needs to walk our own path. and it isn’t like any of us are doing this for a living or whatever.
but people will call you out if they disagree. and… isn’t that a good thing? a good way to get other perspectives so one can come to a more informed choice.
F0cking smash it![/quote]
