Nice job, flip, but I counted 10 before the first pause, which would make it your 10RM. Half of your 1RM is a good estimate of a 20RM for squats.
But 8x12 with 255 would still be less than optimal. That is a ridiculous amount of calories burned in a very short time. Not picking at Nubret at all, but he didn’t exactly have enormous legs, either.
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
I think this routine is highly inappropriate for a genetically ordinary natural. [/quote]
or anyone…
[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Nice job, flip, but I counted 10 before the first pause, which would make it your 10RM.
[/quote]
I want to make sure I’m reading this right. Can you clarify this statement? Taking it at face value makes it seem too ludicrous to be taken seriously.
Flip’s lift is a totally solid 20 rep set.
He may have to go lighter (than a 20 RM) to get all the reps in the Nubret routine, which is one of the reasons it’s not a very good routine. It’s complete pump training, at the expense of mechanical tension.
Would Nubret have gotten worse results if he had instead worked up to 3-4 heavy sets of 8 rep squats, maybe with a top all-out set and then a few back off sets, followed by hack squats/leg press/extension for a million reps to get a huge pump? I don’t know, but that makes a lot more sense to me as a training approach.
[quote]dt79 wrote:
[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Nice job, flip, but I counted 10 before the first pause, which would make it your 10RM.
[/quote]
I want to make sure I’m reading this right. Can you clarify this statement? Taking it at face value makes it seem too ludicrous to be taken seriously.
[/quote]
Lol. Of course.
Look, you can call a rest/pause 20 rep set your 20RM if you want. Lots of people do, which is why I asked flip if his 20 rep set was continuous or paused.
A true rep max is performed with continuous reps. Plug 315x10 into a 1RM calculator, and you get 420. Pretty close to what he said his max was at the time.
Most likely what Nubret would have meant by a weight you could lift for 20 reps, is what you can lift for 20 reps with no pauses. As a matter of fact, I think he said to stop short of locking out, to keep tension on the muscle.
[quote]craze9 wrote:
Flip’s lift is a totally solid 20 rep set.
He may have to go lighter (than a 20 RM) to get all the reps in the Nubret routine, which is one of the reasons it’s not a very good routine. It’s complete pump training, at the expense of mechanical tension.
Would Nubret have gotten worse results if he had instead worked up to 3-4 heavy sets of 8 rep squats, maybe with a top all-out set and then a few back off sets, followed by hack squats/leg press/extension for a million reps to get a huge pump? I don’t know, but that makes a lot more sense to me as a training approach.[/quote]
Recent evidence seems to suggest that you can absolutely build muscle with much lower percentages of 1 RM than previously thought (for naturals, too).
[quote]JayPierce wrote:
[quote]dt79 wrote:
[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Nice job, flip, but I counted 10 before the first pause, which would make it your 10RM.
[/quote]
I want to make sure I’m reading this right. Can you clarify this statement? Taking it at face value makes it seem too ludicrous to be taken seriously.
[/quote]
Lol. Of course.
Look, you can call a rest/pause 20 rep set your 20RM if you want. Lots of people do, which is why I asked flip if his 20 rep set was continuous or paused.
A true rep max is performed with continuous reps. Plug 315x10 into a 1RM calculator, and you get 420. Pretty close to what he said his max was at the time.
Most likely what Nubret would have meant by a weight you could lift for 20 reps, is what you can lift for 20 reps with no pauses. As a matter of fact, I think he said to stop short of locking out, to keep tension on the muscle.[/quote]
Are you high?
[quote]knokkelezoute73 wrote:
[quote]craze9 wrote:
Flip’s lift is a totally solid 20 rep set.
He may have to go lighter (than a 20 RM) to get all the reps in the Nubret routine, which is one of the reasons it’s not a very good routine. It’s complete pump training, at the expense of mechanical tension.
Would Nubret have gotten worse results if he had instead worked up to 3-4 heavy sets of 8 rep squats, maybe with a top all-out set and then a few back off sets, followed by hack squats/leg press/extension for a million reps to get a huge pump? I don’t know, but that makes a lot more sense to me as a training approach.[/quote]
Recent evidence seems to suggest that you can absolutely build muscle with much lower percentages of 1 RM than previously thought (for naturals, too).
[/quote]
Duh. You needed to hear this from some of the same clowns who have been using “science” to claim the opposite for years?
The question is, why stick to some arbitrary set and rep scheme at a specific intensity level for all exercises unless you are injured or dieting to super low bodyfat levels?
[quote]dt79 wrote:
The question is, why stick to some arbitrary set and rep scheme at a specific intensity level for all exercises unless you are injured or dieting to super low bodyfat levels?[/quote]
Gironda’s routines work that way too. I actually enjoy doing that many sets with short breaks. It’s easy on the joints and you get great conditioning. And you actually do get stronger, eventually, though in higher rep ranges. But sure, that’s not the one way to go about building muscle, nor is it necessarily the best.
Man… that was a 10 rep max? I mean, literally 2 seconds elapsed between the 10th and 11th rep. Your standards are your own, I guess. But I would hardly call that a rest. It was enough time to get more air, stabilize, and continue the set. Most examples of rest-pause style sets for high reps that I’ve seen take anywhere between 2 and 4 minutes to complete. A ‘standard’ higher rep set usually takes 40-60 seconds. But whatever. I suppose it’s semantics. You can interpret it however you would like.
I guess my set of 10 reps that I did at 405 was actually my 4 rep max, because, if I recall correctly, I paused between the 4th and 5th rep. Possibly even longer than 2 seconds. Could have been 3. Which, according to the 1rm calculator I just used, would have made my 1rm about 445. Which means I probably didn’t actually squat 515, because math.
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
Man… that was a 10 rep max? I mean, literally 2 seconds elapsed between the 10th and 11th rep. Your standards are your own, I guess. But I would hardly call that a rest. It was enough time to get more air, stabilize, and continue the set. Most examples of rest-pause style sets for high reps that I’ve seen take anywhere between 2 and 4 minutes to complete. A ‘standard’ higher rep set usually takes 40-60 seconds. But whatever. I suppose it’s semantics. You can interpret it however you would like.[/quote]
I would say 20 rep max lol
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
Man… that was a 10 rep max? I mean, literally 2 seconds elapsed between the 10th and 11th rep. Your standards are your own, I guess. But I would hardly call that a rest. It was enough time to get more air, stabilize, and continue the set. Most examples of rest-pause style sets for high reps that I’ve seen take anywhere between 2 and 4 minutes to complete. A ‘standard’ higher rep set usually takes 40-60 seconds. But whatever. I suppose it’s semantics. You can interpret it however you would like.[/quote]
It’s not even semantics. A 10RM implies that your 10th rep was a max effort rep. This is obviously not the case.
Where has all the common sense gone???
All I’m saying is that when Nubret and most other Golden Era bodybuilders said 20 reps, they meant 20 continuous reps, keeping constant tension on the muscles.
Which, since it was mentioned, actually is the standard I use for myself. I use rest/pause all the time, but I only count the initial continuous reps as my rep max. As soon as I have to pause for even a second, the next rep is a rest/pause rep.
I believe this really speaks to the opinions of this program being too much due to the high volume. If you’re doing 8 r/p sets of 12, you’re damned right it’s way too much. If you’re doing 8 sets of 12 with a weight you can lift with perfect form for 20 continuous reps, and you respond favorably to high volume, then I don’t think it’s too much.
I would still prefer some heavy lifting in there, but that’s just me.
[quote]
Where has all the common sense gone???[/quote]
I’m kinda wondering that myself.
I feel like, if we count any pause as an indication of strength limits, we are in turn limited by how long we can hold our breath, which seems silly as that’s going to vary from person to person.
Like, don’t get me wrong, when I pull a max set of deadlifts, I try to get in as many as possible in one breath because that allows me to maintain tightness, but that’s more a technique thing.
I don’t hold my breath at all, so that limitation doesn’t factor in for me. I can’t imagine attempting a 10RM DL set while holding my breath. I think that would be detrimental to tightness, for me. And probably consciousness, lol.
I breathe out during the top of the concentric and grab another breathe before the descent.
[quote]CLUNK wrote:
Serge Nubret Pump Training [/quote]
Yep. There’s a 20-page thread from when that article came out a few years ago, where guys talked about their results with that training. Lots of DOMS and lots of “I didn’t realize how light I’d have to go”-comments.
http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding/pumping_and_helping
[quote]JayPierce wrote:
I use rest/pause all the time, but I only count the initial continuous reps as my rep max. As soon as I have to pause for even a second, the next rep is a rest/pause rep. [/quote]
That’s all well and good, but understand that that’s 100% your own personal definition of a term widely understood to mean something else in the same context.
I might refer to push-ups as floor presses in my own training notebook because, hey, you’re on the floor and pressing. But if I tell people who do actual barbell floor presses “That’s not a floor press”, then I’m speaking out of my element.
What’s next, are we going to argue about what pre-exhaust means? Geez.
[quote]JayPierce wrote:
I don’t hold my breath at all, so that limitation doesn’t factor in for me. I can’t imagine attempting a 10RM DL set while holding my breath. I think that would be detrimental to tightness, for me. And probably consciousness, lol.
I breathe out during the top of the concentric and grab another breathe before the descent. [/quote]
Wouldn’t breathing out be considered a moment of pausing?
It sucks a lot to hold on for a 10rep set of deads with one breath. You burst a lot of blood vessels all of your body, your vision goes black, and it feels like your eyes are going to pop out of your skull, but it does great things for tightness. You have to keep “swallowing” air the whole time.
I think I manage 9 in this video before I need a breath.
It’s also like breathing fire when you finally set down the weight. Like some sort of reverse vacuum.
[quote]JayPierce wrote:
All I’m saying is that when Nubret and most other Golden Era bodybuilders said 20 reps, they meant 20 continuous reps, keeping constant tension on the muscles.
Which, since it was mentioned, actually is the standard I use for myself. I use rest/pause all the time, but I only count the initial continuous reps as my rep max. As soon as I have to pause for even a second, the next rep is a rest/pause rep.
I believe this really speaks to the opinions of this program being too much due to the high volume. If you’re doing 8 r/p sets of 12, you’re damned right it’s way too much. If you’re doing 8 sets of 12 with a weight you can lift with perfect form for 20 continuous reps, and you respond favorably to high volume, then I don’t think it’s too much.
I would still prefer some heavy lifting in there, but that’s just me.[/quote]
[quote]JayPierce wrote:
A true rep max is performed with continuous reps. Plug 315x10 into a 1RM calculator, and you get 420. [/quote]
[quote]JayPierce wrote:
[quote]
Where has all the common sense gone???[/quote]
I’m kinda wondering that myself. [/quote]
Uh-huh