Not To Go Against The Grain Anti Rippetoe Style But....

Training Bodybuilding
61

[quote]BruceLeeFan wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

I agree with pretty much everything youve said in this thread so far, but i have to say while i havent gained 100 lbs yet, i have gained 80, and am still pretty lean (not because im a fattyphobe, i just have good genetics/metabolism for staying lean) and ive never really eaten more than 4000 cals a day. Sure somedays i get up to around 4500, but many others i only get around 3500 and on really busy days its barely over 3000. Basically all im saying is i do believe, like the OP, that a lot of people can make pretty good gains for a while without eating a 5 or 6000 calorie diet. However now that im up to about 245 im finally starting to notice that my body requires a lot more calories than it did even at 230. Also, i DO think that anyone like yourself approaching or around 300 lbs definitely needs 5-6k. [/quote]

You are a perfect example of what I was trying to get across…
Also yes when you get bigger calorie needs go up.

I don’t even think it’s a case of good genetics/fast metabolism… I’m willing to bet almost anyone could do the same.

X may have ate very large amounts to get to his size, and being the sort of person he is I dare say he experimented with less calories to start with… But again I suppose this depends a lot person to person.

I wouldn’t say it comes down to the whole ecto/meso/endo thing either.

I’m more of a meso/endo and from what you said about having a good metabolism you’re most likely an ecto?[/quote]

Thats why i made that post, figured it might kinda help explain your take on this. I think some people are responding to you as if you are saying NOT to eat 5 or 6k cals a day, which i havent seen you post at all. And yeah i was definitely ecto when i started, but my body type is more of a meso now for sure. Im at about 10% bf at 6’3, 245 currently

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[quote]Jab1 wrote:
OP you’ve gained weight, congrats. But I checked your lifts and man you’re doing something wrong. You’ve been on these boards for years and they’re still very low. I know you injured your shoulder but what kind of injury was it? I’ve been training round a shoulder injury the last few weeks and still hitting PRs.

You say it yourself; " At most I’ve trained for 6months without doing some retarded program or a retarded diet… "

Your log is full of things you’ve done in the past and of things that you should be doing but there aren’t actually any posts about you hitting the weights and setting PRs week on week. You’ve made plans for when you “stall” but you haven’t even put in enough work to truly stall yet. Too much talk bro. You need to buy a power cage or join a gym.[/quote]
Yeah… Believe me I know.
Life has been awful in the last few years, for an example each year household income has gone down about 8 grand… Debt has naturally gone up.
There isn’t much I can do at the moment. My problem has been I get a PR in the gym each session, but after 4-6 weeks I get hurt or money gets so bad I refuse to train on under maintenance calories.
By the time things are alright again I’m back to square one.
I have no issues with knowing what to do, despite what it may look like in this thread.

At the end of the day I just don’t believe you need those 5k calories to gain size.
X keeps talking about forcing the body to accept holding so much weight but you don’t go from being say a 140lb 6’2 guy to being 240lbs overnight.

Calorie intake goes up as you grow bigger. You wont need to force your body if you do it naturally. (not talking about steroids here)

I also think saying “you have to force your body to accept the weight” is completely unscientific. No matter what weight you are you have to force your body to gain weight in a sense. There are more scientific ways of going about it than just eating 5k calories.

When the calories you eat are no longer allowing you to gain weight, you eat more. It’s really very simple to grasp and it is still technically forcing your body to grow.

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[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]BruceLeeFan wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

I agree with pretty much everything youve said in this thread so far, but i have to say while i havent gained 100 lbs yet, i have gained 80, and am still pretty lean (not because im a fattyphobe, i just have good genetics/metabolism for staying lean) and ive never really eaten more than 4000 cals a day. Sure somedays i get up to around 4500, but many others i only get around 3500 and on really busy days its barely over 3000. Basically all im saying is i do believe, like the OP, that a lot of people can make pretty good gains for a while without eating a 5 or 6000 calorie diet. However now that im up to about 245 im finally starting to notice that my body requires a lot more calories than it did even at 230. Also, i DO think that anyone like yourself approaching or around 300 lbs definitely needs 5-6k. [/quote]

You are a perfect example of what I was trying to get across…
Also yes when you get bigger calorie needs go up.

I don’t even think it’s a case of good genetics/fast metabolism… I’m willing to bet almost anyone could do the same.

X may have ate very large amounts to get to his size, and being the sort of person he is I dare say he experimented with less calories to start with… But again I suppose this depends a lot person to person.

I wouldn’t say it comes down to the whole ecto/meso/endo thing either.

I’m more of a meso/endo and from what you said about having a good metabolism you’re most likely an ecto?[/quote]

Thats why i made that post, figured it might kinda help explain your take on this. I think some people are responding to you as if you are saying NOT to eat 5 or 6k cals a day, which i havent seen you post at all. And yeah i was definitely ecto when i started, but my body type is more of a meso now for sure. Im at about 10% bf at 6’3, 245 currently
[/quote]
Yah lol. They are acting as though I’m telling people to not eat more calories than maintenance. If it takes 5-6k calories a day to get it done, fair enough. It’s just not the case for the majority of people… Even if it will be when they reach truly exceptional size.
It’s an unnecessary amount of calories and we know what people who eat that much usually end up. Obese. But I’m not suggesting either as people have thought I have that I’m scared of gaining a little fat. Because that’s not the case.

And if people think eating that much is justified just because they workout, there are plenty of powerlifters out there who have that mindset. Even a weight lifter can get exceptionally high levels of bodyfat. But as this post is geared to bodybuilding I’ll stop side tracking.

I just think people should accept this is not a one shoe fits all sort of situation.

64

Skinny guys are different. Let me rephrase that, TRUE skinny guys are different. You are 5’6" and started at 130lbs. THAT is NOT skinny. I mean no disrespect whatsoever. I have read many of your posts and you’re a good hardworking guy BUT I think you are off on this.

I know plenty of guys at 6 foot and taller that weighed less then you do (and no, not at 4 years of age) at 16-18 years old. I can count myself among them as I weighed in at a healthy 116lbs when I was 16 at 6’1". That’s skinny.

And people like that, and I take it the people that come to Rippetoe, have a fast metabolism but are, like Prof X did, walking everywhere and constantly doing shit. People like this are ofter naturally active and expend a lot of nervous energy. 3000 calories while training just an hour a day (hard, very hard with national level Olympic lifters and powerlifters) and I LOST weight.

At 4000 I barely maintained the weight. At 5000 i started growing but still very slow. It took me four years to look a little better then normal at 180lbs (strong like bull though).

Sickened by this I upped the calories for the better part of two years to 6000-7000 and FINALLY started growing the way others did in their first two years. I ended up at 230lbs at 15%. I eventually ate 10000 calories Saturday and Sunday and at 29 years of age I had bulked up to 290lbs at 18%. A fucking monster.
That would have NEVER, EVER have happened had I only eaten 500-1000 over maintenance.

Now mind you, I truly believe that it is possible to eat reasonably clean and get that many calories in, you just have to eat very calorie dense foods. Remember too that eating a large amount of protein revs up your metabolism and that good carbs can help you be more hungry and thus allow you to eat more. A lot of ways to do this right and not end up a tub of lard.

Also, Rippetoe’s guys train so hard that sometimes a 10 min break is needed between SETS.
Think about that for a moment.
If you truly leave it all in the gym (in a smart way, not a HIT way for example) then you will grow and you will need these calories.

But dang, dude, you are 5’6". 190lbs ripped on you will look great. I would have to be 250lbs to match that.
Articles like this are not for you, my friend.

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[quote]Skinny guys are different. Let me rephrase that, TRUE skinny guys are different. You are 5’6" and started at 130lbs. THAT is NOT skinny. I mean no disrespect whatsoever. I have read many of your posts and you’re a good hardworking guy BUT I think you are off on this.

I know plenty of guys at 6 foot and taller that weighed less then you do (and no, not at 4 years of age) at 16-18 years old. I can count myself among them as I weighed in at a healthy 116lbs when I was 16 at 6’1". That’s skinny.[/quote]
I graduated high school at 5’11 weighing 106 pounds. After getting sick once the year before, I had dropped down to 95 pounds, so even that was actually an improvement.

Calories are the only thing that works. Saying that “I don’t think you need 5000-6000 calories” is bullshit. If you want to get big, that’s exactly what you’ll need, and if you’re really a skinny freak, that’s what you’ll need to get average. No “slowly ramping it up from 25K”. If you want to make gains, you force them. None of this prison logic. You gain what you eat.

66

Question for everyone:

I am a semi skinny guy but with a lot of training under my belt. Trained consistently from 15 till now 22. I just recently went through a stretch where I lost a lot of weight because of not eating and too much cardio. My lifts are now starting to come back as I have started eating 3500 calories a day. Gaining about 1lb a week.

My question comes from my testosterone levels are in the hole. Finally went into a doctor and they are at 13 when the reference level for low is 100. Also I have hypothyroidism.

I am 6’ 167lbs right now and am shooting for a lean 210-220lbs for my long term goal.

Should I still be eating massive amounts of calories even though my body is not at an optimal hormonal state to put on muscle?

67

roflmao

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Dont get me wrong I love to eat food. But if my body wont be using it to make muscle and only fat then I don’t think i should be wasting my money.

69

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Should I still be eating massive amounts of calories even though my body is not at an optimal hormonal state to put on muscle?[/quote]

should you put gas in your cars tank if the if you’re leaking oil? if its still running, might as well gas’r up!

what i mean to say is, why not take care of the things you have direct control over (make eating well a priority)? you would be hard pressed to find anyone that is working at 100% optimal.

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But this is so far from optimal. Its like my testosterone doesnt even exist.

71

I dunno why you’re getting hung up on this 5k calories number. What it means is; EAT ENOUGH TO GROW. For me, that’s about 4000 calories. It’s like the 1g/protein per pound of bodyweight. It doesn’t mean that that is the magic number to hit for Mussell Gainzzzzz. It means eat a lot of protein, and much more than you eat when not training!

It’s like if someone says “hit 8 reps to build muscle” they don’t mean THAT NUMBER SPECIFICALLY. It means don’t only do one rep maxes, and don’t do fucking 30 rep cardio-fests. It means lift a weight that is heavy enough that you can only do it a few times.

72

[quote]BruceLeeFan wrote:

I just think people should accept this is not a one shoe fits all sort of situation.
[/quote]

NO

This pretty much is a one size fits all situation.

You need lots of food to grow… that’s it… right there…

No one knows the magic number of extra calories they will need until they just do it. Authors likely can’t throw out statements that the average reader needs 1,274 extra calories a day to grow at Y rate… so they just say “eat a lot”… and it works…

OP I won’t be logging onto a golf forum later and proudly posting my golf logs with poor averages then debating an article done by a professional fucking golf coach and also arguing on a message board filled with any number of golfers far better/more experienced than me about how to golf…

Do you know why?

Because I understand that I don’t understand golf… you are not even at that point yet…

Ponder that… or just waste a few more years eating barely above what you figure to be your basal metabolic rate and doing flavor of the week programs… you can also argue on the internet about how “unscientific” these statements seem when they’re presented to you in a chorus that constitutes the widest and most diverse experiment sample size you could ever hope to find in terms of lifters of varied genetics and experience who got big by… wait for it… eating big

Also; never complain about life being too hard. There are people on here both author and poster that have done more shit, have more trying circumstances, and have less energy and free time than you’d think and still get it done… if you want to do it you’ll do it… and ground beef is cheap anyhow…

73

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Dont get me wrong I love to eat food. But if my body wont be using it to make muscle and only fat then I don’t think i should be wasting my money.[/quote]

Ryan, as a testicular cancer survivor I know a thing or two about training and eating while not having much test floating around your system. So I hope you will take this for what it is worth:

You MUST eat! FOOD IS ANABOLIC.
Correction, the RIGHT FOOD is anabolic. Wheaties, twinkies and fruit juice, not so much.

Help your body correct itself from the stuff you have put it through that got you here. Test is made from cholesterol. Eat 3-6 organic eggs every night. Eat some organic ground beef every night. Eat some Brazil nuts and almonds every day. Eat a small bag of spinach every day and load up on Broccoli twice a day.

This will up your natural test and lower the estrogen a bit. Don’t train to failure, rather train heavy in the HP Mass kind of way. Better to increase the frequency then the intensity techniques like drop sets and such.

Rotating carbs has worked really well for me as well. Have a high protein day (medium carb, low fat), a Zone like day and a high carb, no fat, medium protein day. Load up on veggies, fruits, nuts and black beans on days like this.

Get in the habit of eating on a set schedule. This will help your body. DO NOT EAT A HUGE VARIETY OF FOOD. Eat similar or even the same meals every day (just different portions based on the carb rotation).

This is how I got off hormone replacement therapy.

Hope that helps. Give it some time. You took a while to damage your body, now you got to give it some time to heal. Food is like medicine. Just make sure you use the right ones and in the right amounts and 3-6 months from how you will be fine and a lot bigger :slight_smile:

74

Thank you this does help. I have been eating a lot of spinach and broccoli and slightly rotating carbs. I never go to failure and move the weights as fast as possible as soon as i slow i kill the set.

Thanks again for the advice its good to hear from someone with experience.

75

Any thoughts or suggestions as to how much weight/week or month would be a reasonable goal to shoot for given the right diet and with the low testosterone. I know there are a lot of variables, but just a ball park.

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Ryan,

Every person is different and you have to realize that when you start adding the right kind of foods (eggs, meat, fish, beans etc) your hormonal profile will change for the better. You really did not discuss what your food choices are so if you are for example only eating carbs and little protein and fat then you won’t gain much.

Focus on good protein and fat sources during the day and at night and good carb sources around the training session.

Wake up and have some water and an orange/grapefruit to lower cortisol.
30 minutes later have steak and eggs, or an egg omelet with spinach and a cup of nuts
Later, as a snack make an oatmeal shake with water, protein powder, peanut butter (or any kind of nut butter) and a banana
Lunch should be ground beef, 1-2 eggs, broccoli, some more nuts and water with lemon. Add an onion to this and mushrooms.

After that, another snack could be a protein shake with coconut milk

Before your training session you should eat carbs and protein (I like potatoes and chicken/turkey/tuna) with lots of water and lemon
During my training I have water with bcaa’s and a bit of honey (in the water)
Right after I take a carb and protein shake (I love Biotest’s banana flavor here) and add another banana and a cup of raisens.
An hour later I have a meal with rice, red meat, 1-2 eggs, a lot of veggies and some desert (peanutbutter and chocolate my favorite)

Just, before bed I have a cup of cottage cheese with an apple and a handful of fishoil and flaxseed capsules.

portion size is up to you. start small and add more and more and more.
add enzymes, add probiotics, add glutamine.
whatever you can do to help your body digest as much calories as possible.

As you can see this is a rather clean way of eating a lot of calories but it is high protein, high fat and ENOUGH carbs to train hard and recuperate. Do you understand? This should help you gain about a pound a week for the first 6-8 weeks (as long as you keep eating a bit more every day) and then 1-2 pounds a month. ALSO, you MUST train hard and heavy for at least an hour a day. The body is not going to get the message to add weight if you do not give it a reason to. You must be really honest with yourself here and really take a good look at your diet and your training habits. Only you can do that.

Oh, Once a week I do not eat much protein (Sunday) and eat a lot of carbs (fruits, veggies, nuts, beans, potatoes, rice etc).

this will help with increasing free test actually (learned that from a Justin harris article)

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I eat clean and enjoy eating that way. Oatmeal and rice and fruit are my main carb sources. I eat high protein moderate carbs and fats buts cycle depending on the day and how hard I am training. Normally 100g fat 300g pro and the rest carbs is a decent average day.
I eat turkey chicken tuna salmon eggs and lean beef for protein
fats are olive oil peanut butter almonds and fish oil capsules

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[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
there are far LESS really built people around since lifters started being this analytical about every little issue[/quote]

Makes me wonder if we have the driving magazine sales and supplement industry to thank for this. I know I will pick up an occasional muscle rag to follow contests and see pics (even though the internet makes it a hell of a lot easier), but how many times can you write the samne article about eating and training? Supplements as well, I can’t tell you the number of times a young kid at the gym asks me about some new supplement he’s going to take, but has no idea how many cals or grams of protein he’s eating each day.

I’m going to obviously express my own opinion with this, but… I think that the basics for gaining size, are a hell of a lot easier to follow than those necessary to (properly!) cut while maintaining maximum muscle.

S[/quote]
The best example I could think of (while taking a dump this morning FYI) is having a look at how the action hero in movies has changed. The media also tells you that Zac Effron has a great physique. Zac Effron = teenage girls = teenage boys wanting to look like him to get teenage girls. That is the root of the problem I believe.

Even me being 4 years out of high school I see the 14 - 18 age group with seemingly more vagina than balls these days. Rarely do I actually encounter a true Alpha Male in that age group. Sad but it is the truth.

Then there is the ‘get there quick’ schemes…

MAN I COULD GO ON ALL DAY! lol

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[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
I eat clean and enjoy eating that way. Oatmeal and rice and fruit are my main carb sources. I eat high protein moderate carbs and fats buts cycle depending on the day and how hard I am training. Normally 100g fat 300g pro and the rest carbs is a decent average day.
I eat turkey chicken tuna salmon eggs and lean beef for protein
fats are olive oil peanut butter almonds and fish oil capsules[/quote]

Ok, that sounds good, so let’s break it down a bit.
100 gram fat is 900 cal
300 gram protein is 1200 cal
total 2100 cal
now let’s assume you have rice, fruit and oatmeal counting toward carb grams and assume 300 grams (1200 cal) and you would still be only at 3300 calories total.
Depending on your bodyweight, age, intensity of training and metabolism this might simply not be enough.

Now, I am assuming 300 grams of carbs and you did not mention how much but I challenge you to take a good look and figure out how many calories you are really eating at the end of the day.

If that figure is what maintains your weight I suggest you start by adding some good fats (since you are low on test) and see what happens. Every few weeks up the calories a bit and figure out where you are gaining a nice amount of muscle and only a little fat. You might grow nicely on 4300 or less OR you might have to bring it up to 5300 or more. You never really know until you figure out exactly what you are eating and what the caloric value is.

Trust me, we never eat as much as we think :slight_smile:
I think you would benefit from a food journal and log every single thing you eat for a week or two.

Hope some of this helps :slight_smile:

80

I keep a very strict food journal every day. I weigh everything I eat. I have 320 carbs on my hard work out days and then drop to 200 carbs on “off days” and replace the calories with fat. Protein is normally slightly higher like 310 or 320. But I am going to start bumping up calories.

The problem I am having is a gain in strength without any appreciable muscle gain. At least to the naked eye and bi weekly progress pictures. I wonder if that is because of low test.