No Love for Lunges?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Christian Thibaudeau Coaching
1

In general, I never much liked doing single sided body movements. I don’t have big lateral strength differences to overcome. They take more time. I’ve tried them, but it’s one of those things I find overrated. (You probably disagree. I’d make exceptions for injury, where differences are significant, if you like doing it, certain movements like Turkish get ups etc.)

One exception to this is lunges. I do them periodically, but should do them more. As I’m trying to do now. They are often listed as one of the six or so “cardinal movements”. They really work the legs, especially the quads. Articles list a few variations. But I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a comprehensive discussion of them.

So I have questions.

  1. This is a rare exercise where I tend to prefer bodyweight. Not always. What is the difference in work and effect by doing these loaded versus unloaded? I’m not sure I’ve seen an article make specific weight recommendations - if loading, what might one work towards? If this weight is modest, is it really better than bodyweight?

  2. Sometimes I like to do these at the end of my workout as a sprint type thing over a distance, as fast as I can with reasonable form. I can’t recall ever seeing an article discuss the speed of the movement. Of course one has to stay balanced. Is this a good or bad idea?

  3. Several people say the reverse lunges are better. They are certainly harder to do quickly. People such as Mr. Wendler like side lunges less. Are the benefits and drawbacks between them really that significant? Should you be trying to do all of them, over time? Seems like doing them at all is already a win.

  4. What else is new in lunges? For all their significance, including being a better accessory movement, they certainly don’t get the love or respect that many lifts get, apart from being told we’re “doing them wrong”.

  5. Longer or shorter steps likely work the quads differently. Wider steps worth a try? Carrying a load overhead adds more abdominal component than dangling from the side. I’m guessing not much difference between a kettlebell and dumbbell. Could bands help much here, or not worth the bother?

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No, I would not. I don’t do lunges myself. And I can’t say that I often include them in programs.

I find that they are a decent tool for people with longer limbs and a left/right imbalance

3

It depends (it always kinda does).

While you can stimulate growth with pretty much any rep range, the more reps you do, the more central fatigue you create.

I’ll do a very quick recap on what central fatigue is:

Central fatigue refers to a weakening of the excitatory drive from the nervous system to the muscles. The stronger the excitatory drive is, the easier it is to recruit fast-twitch fibers and make them fire with a high firing rate.

Fast-twitch fibers have a large potential for hypertrophy, slow-twitch fibers do not. So the amount of hypertrophy is highly dependant on the recruitment of fast-twitch fibers.

Central fatigue (weaker excitatory drive) makes it harder to recruit the FT fiber, even if you try to move fast, lift heavy or go to failure. For one thing you wont be able to lift as heavy or as fast but also you will not be able to bring in all your growth-prone FT fibers even if you go to failure.

That central fatigue is caused by an accumulation of calcium ions in the muscles (which leaks with every intense contraction) as well as afferent signals from the muscles/tendons/fascia to the nervous system. Feelings of discomfort, pain, effort or unpleasantness are the main afferent signals causing that fatigue.

For both reasons, higher repetitions lead to more central fatigue. This means that even though you can get similar hypertrophy with higher reps, it comes at the cost of greater central fatigue, which diminishes the amount of effective volume you can do.

For that reason, 6-12 reps seems to be ideal for hypertrophy.

So the answer to your question is if with only body weight you can do significantly more than 12 reps per leg, it is likely sub-optimal and I would raise the load until getting 12 reps is hard.

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4

Again, it depends.

For muscle growth it’s very likely suboptimal. The true mechanism of muscle growth is mechanical tension on the muscle. When you go fast (either eccentrically or concentrically) you significantly DECREASE tension because the faster the contraction is, the less actin-myosin cross-bridges occur at the same time (during fast actions, those brides connect and disconnect really quickly, meaning that any given time you will not have a large number created at the same time).

Less actin-myosin cross-bridges = less mechanical tension.

Less mechanical tension = less growth stimulation

That’s why, for example, plyometrics, will not build significant muscle mass despite a really high FT fibers recruitment. Getting the FT fibers “in” is not enough, you want them under tension, which can’t be maximize with fast movements.

As a form of extensive “plyometric” workout to improve power-endurance, or as a form of conditioning, sure.

One piece of advice when evaluating the value of a method is to ask yourself what is the specific purpose of the exercise. Each exercise/method should have ONE main purpose (it can have side benefits but there must be one STRONG reason why are doing it).

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5

That makes sense. I never do them to failure or anywhere close. When I do then fast I consider it a form of cardio/metcon, not to build strength or hypertrophy specifically. If I do them it’s probably at the end of a workout.

Does it matter much if you don’t do them (is it really a cardinal movement?)

If it helps me with anything, maybe ankle mobility.

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I see single leg work as a progression.

Walking lunges (forward or backward) are at the end of the progression.

It would go something like this:

  1. Split squat (feet stay in the same position and you simply go up and down, almost in a straight line)

  2. Static lunge (feet stay in the same position and you go up and down, but this type you go down and forward, trying to make the front knee go as far as possible)

  3. Bulgarian split squat (same as split squat but with the rear foot on a block)

  4. Bulgarian lunges (same as Bulgarian split squat, but while doing down and forward to bring the front knee as far forward as possible)

  5. Dynamic split squat (starting with both feet together, stepping forward and squatting down in a straight line, so front tibia is perpendicular to the floor in the low position, you then push yourself back up to the feet together position)

  6. Dynamic lunges: Same as above but while bringing the front knee forward so that the tibia is angled forward in the low position

  7. Forward walking split squat

  8. Forward walking lunges

  9. Backwards walking split squat

  10. Backwards walking lunges

I’ll be honest, I pretty much never reach the walking variations with any client. I see them as inferior in every regard except building balance.

I’ve also never used side lunges

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7

The muscle being stretched the most under load is the muscle being recruited the most. So yeah, wider steps work differently: they tend to emphasize glutes and hamstrings more. So it depends on what you are using them for.

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Yeah, sure, but it will take away from the legs because:

  1. The excitatory drive from the nervous system is divided over more different muscles and actions, this means a weaker activation signal for the prime movers and less growth stimulation

  2. You be less stable: more instability = less hypertrophy

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I don’t use bands and don’t recommend them on anything unless you are a geared powerlifter. The exceptions would be:

  1. Hanging band technique in an early preparation period to work specifically on stability, understanding that the growth and strength stimuli will be less.

  2. As a feedback mechanism to help recruit a certain muscle more. For example the sweeping deadlift.

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If you have no movement limitations or severe imbalances, I wouldn’t worry about it. Especially if you stuff like sprints or loaded carries/sled pulls already. Heck, even if you do lots of walking.

Especially if you do them unloaded, not close to failure.

Then what’s their purpose?

They won’t build muscle.

They won’t get you stronger.

Unless the duration of the set is north of 60-90 seconds, it won’t really build conditioning.

And if it’s for explosiveness, there are better tools to do the job (for conditioning too).

They COULD be useful in a conditioning “circuit”

Something like

  • Prowler pushing 60 seconds
  • Walking lunges 60 seconds
  • KB swing 60 seconds
    Rest 2-3 minutes, perform 4-5 times.

Or even a whole-body conditioning session, for example

  • Walking lunges 60 seconds
  • Push ups max in 60 seconds
  • Horizontal row/chin-ups max in 60 seconds
  • Jog 1 mile
    Perform 3 times

But they are not any better than other similar exercises.

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I sometimes do them for as long as 60 seconds but not always. Like I say, I don’t usually do them at all. - and don’t see many other serious lifters doing them. I had a fairly knowledgeable CrossFit coach who liked therm and often added them to circuits. I add them to the occasional routine, including my current one. But calling them a main type of movement seems to elevate their importance.

It done fast, they feel similar to sprints. One does feel it in the quads after doing them quickly. But if they don’t help much with strength or hypertrophy, I guess they become more of a dynamic stretch. Maybe they help with joint flexibility - I do sometimes feel a little stiff in the hip flexors and ankles. But now I won’t feel bad if I program them less often. Maybe I’ll do more Bulgarians or something instead.

Thanks once again for your generosity in taking the time for a detailed response.

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One effect lunges is to get a pump - I feel it in my legs more strongly than stuff I do more often. Although a pump is not always a priority for me, it isn’t so different from doing 100 reps of a leg press at the beginning of a workout. So if one is going to do this, maybe it engorges muscle to build capillaries.or prime it for growth - so may make more sense if done first thing as a warmup.

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Key word is “maybe”.

And increasing capillaries will not “prime the muscle for growth”. A few years ago I too would have said that it could enhance muscle growth. But after learning a lot more about muscle growth, I don’t see that specific benefit happening.

Muscle growth is 90%+ dependent on intramuscular tension, increasing capillaries won’t help with that.

It will (provided that it does happen to a significant degree) speed up recovery, both between sets and between sessions.

I think you are trying way too hard to fit your method in a box to justify its use. I personally do not see the potential benefits being worth the effort and even the potential drawbacks. But it’s your training, you can do whatever you want.

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Just playing advocate. I’m happy to do something else I enjoy more - which is almost everything. I kind of got “suckered” by it inevitably being described as a unique movement in lists including things like push, pull and squat which are obviously important things to lifters. If the lunge is relatively unimportant, I will continue doing them infrequently and not think twice. Thanks for your views.

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Just jumping in here to learn.

I’ve in a position where my previously ruptured discs in my lower back have flared up again and I can’t load my back without causing issues. So squats, hack squat, leg press etc all giving me issues right now.

I was going to use lunges as my go to hypertrophy quad movement as I don’t really know what else to use (we don’t have a belt squat machine). Thought about db squats or goblet squads but guessing (maybe incorrectly) lunges would be better to create hypertrophy with less load.

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How about using smith machine back squats with heels elevated (like a squat board where your feet are angled all the way up to 30°, this will really target the quads and allow you to stay upright) as your compound movement?

Since it’s being performed in the smith machine, stability requirements won’t be high, you can focus more on maximally engaging your legs by pushing into the floor (or board). It’s also a great movement to reinforce bracing throughout the entire movement as you can safely add pauses or slow eccentrics without compensatory mechanisms.

The smith machine squat will still allow you to use heavy loading and the heel elevation (the more angle you use, the more upright you’ll be and the more the quads are involved, especially the ‘teardrop’ vastus medialis) puts very little stress on your lower back.

Lunges aren’t that great for hypertrophy because stability requirements are very high, especially when fatigue kicks in you tend to recruit the lower back more to assist in the movement. You need high mechanical tension and fatigue in the target musle(s) to maximize hypertrophy. A better alternative would be to do a supported split squat variation, which are more or less a form of stationary lunges.

You could do front foot elevated split squats or close stance Bulgarian split squats (back foot on a step or box with max height of 18 cm to not place too much stress on the back leg and keep the focus on the front leg) to emphasize quad development. Use your free hand to support yourself so you can eliminate all stability requirements and focus maximally on recruiting and fatiguing your quads in the movement. Look up John Meadows’s bulgarian dropset of death for a visual example. The only modification you need to make is use a closer stance and lower the height of the back foot to engage the quads more.

For isolation movements you really can’t go wrong with leg extensions or sissy squats done for higher reps of 12-20 to maximize lactate and growth factors. The compounds are for muscle damage and fatigue, the isolation movements just add a little extra by creating a favorable hormonal milieu for growth.

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I know the pain of the Bulgarian drop set of death, it’s not pleasant. Cheers for the ideas though.

I’ve switched initially to BSS with DBs which don’t aggravate my back at all although the loading is light. I want to avoid any spinal loading for the moment so even smith squats are out the equation until my discs settle down again.

Maybe db sissy squats are worth a shot with intensification techniques but just need to make sure I get enough mechanical tension to grow the legs.

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You can reach just as much mechanical tension with lighter weights, provided that you get close enough to muscle failure.

It’s all about recruiting AND fatiguing the FT muscle fibers, either via load or via fatigue accumulation by doing more reps.

If you’re an experienced lifter, I actually think it would be smarter to use methods because the lighter weights will require some modifications in training volume to still get a great growth stimulus.

Doing higher reps on every set of an exercise within a workout quickly increases the total volume of a workout. The more work you need to do, the more cortisol you’ll release.

So it’s actually beneficial to add in methods like rest-pause or dropsets to accumulate all your effective reps without having to do more sets.

Another great option would be to use fairly slow eccentrics (4-6 seconds) or stato-dynamics (adding 2-3 second pauses in the mid or bottom range of the eccentric/concentric phase of the movement). The longer TUT requires less reps to completely recruit and fatigue the FT fibers and eliminates the need for more volume.

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but i think that’s work in different ways for type 1A and type 3 , or not ?

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No. Why would it?

Differences in neurological profiles and personality doesn’t change how human adaptations work.

Now, someone’s neurological profile will affect how much training stress someone can tolerate and what type of training motivates them. But it doesn’t alter the growth mechanisms which are common to all humans.

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