[quote]nptitim wrote:
Professor X wrote:
If you are pausing it on your chest, it is a rest position. That would be what that action is called. Further, the people who you see bouncing the bar off their chest are resting even more. The weight wouldn’t come back under full control of the pectoral muscles and supporting muscle groups until after the momentum of the bounce had decreased.
You need to look up the stretch reflex to understand what is happening. It is a key principle in how muscles work and how force is generated. It is caused by muscle spindles. Sometimes it is referred to as the Stretch Shortening Cycle (SSC). Basically muscles are somewhat elastic like rubber bands and when you stretch and hold them they contract much weaker then when you stretch and contract them immediately. Imagine doing a normal vertical jump and then trying one where you squat down in the same position but hold for a 2 count and then jump, your vertical will be much worse.[/quote]
Yes, because “stretch reflex” just wasn’t covered in any of those gross anatomy classes…or biology…or anatomy and physiology…or when dissecting that body. That doesn’t change the fact that putting a weight on your chest and allowing any weight to be relieved at all would be considered a rest position.
If you aren’t allowing any weight to actually rest on your chest than what you are talking about in terms of the actual movement is no different at all than when I take it down close to my chest and then press up. Your FAULT is assuming I am stopping even inches above my chest. I’m not and have stated as such how many times now? I simply don’t allow it to make contact.
There are very few people taking their heaviest weight and simply holding it in mid air at that bottom position in powerlifting. Most use their chest as either a platform or even a way to help bounce the weight back up.
I won’t even get into the powerlifters who use their huge guts to decrease the range of motion creating a shorter distance between their chest and final position. If anyone should be complaining about something, it should be that.
Why are you even discussing this? As far as I can tell “the Prof” is about as big as everyone else in this thread put together and he does have a point. On the other hand I don’t get why anyone that big would actually argue when he knows he’s right.
[quote]onewall wrote:
There is a school of thought that says that lowering the bar all the way to the chest will overstretch something in the shoulder and eventually lead to injury. [/quote]
Sounds like the kind of school you get to on the short bus.
Seriously, Eric Cressey indicated that taking a week or two off every once in a while from full-ROM benches is a good idea to protect your rotator cuffs.
[quote]Balle wrote:
Why are you even discussing this? As far as I can tell “the Prof” is about as big as everyone else in this thread put together and he does have a point. On the other hand I don’t get why anyone that big would actually argue when he knows he’s right.[/quote]
Because I get bored easily. That isn’t evident by now?
[quote]Balle wrote:
Why are you even discussing this? As far as I can tell “the Prof” is about as big as everyone else in this thread put together and he does have a point. On the other hand I don’t get why anyone that big would actually argue when he knows he’s right.[/quote]
Balle, this discussion isn’t about who is bigger or what works best, it is simply about the definition of a bench press.
X is huge, everyone knows that. That doesn’t necessarily always make him right. If I were 300 lbs of muscle and told you that squatting down with a bar on your back was called a biceps curl, I would expect you to question it.
Granted, that is an extreme example, but you get the point. The only way we learn is by questioning others and by others giving answers which can be backed up by experience or scientific evidence.
These guys come from two different backgrounds and aren’t even debating the same point yet.
[quote]nptitim wrote:
Professor X wrote:
If you are pausing it on your chest, it is a rest position. That would be what that action is called. Further, the people who you see bouncing the bar off their chest are resting even more. The weight wouldn’t come back under full control of the pectoral muscles and supporting muscle groups until after the momentum of the bounce had decreased.
You need to look up the stretch reflex to understand what is happening. It is a key principle in how muscles work and how force is generated. It is caused by muscle spindles. Sometimes it is referred to as the Stretch Shortening Cycle (SSC). Basically muscles are somewhat elastic like rubber bands and when you stretch and hold them they contract much weaker then when you stretch and contract them immediately. Imagine doing a normal vertical jump and then trying one where you squat down in the same position but hold for a 2 count and then jump, your vertical will be much worse.[/quote]
That’s all fine an dandy. But consider these items:
Frankly, few people on this site need a lesson on stretch reflex, but you gave us one anyway — in a most condescending manner I might add. Not the way to make brownie points.
The stretch reflex and bouncing the bar off your chest are two entirely different things. Bouncing off the chest is a reflex response of your rib cage, not your muscles.
Properly performed, the SR involves only the last inch or two of the descent. In the bench, it should IDEALLY involve just grazing your chest or shirt too.
[quote]dswithers wrote:
When the elbow goes below the shoulder, the stress on the shoulder joint is greatly increased and the risk of injury to the rotator cuff is very high when using heavy weights. [/quote]
Why does the rotator cuff take a lot of stress? Stabilizing the weight? Is the rotator cuff a problem for big benchers? I’m asking b/c I don’t know. I could understand why upright rows or decelleration from throwing is bad for the cuff, but not bench pressing
I am powerlifter so there are a lot of people in that sport that bench over 400. I agree that is rare for a normal gym goer to bench that much. Meat posted earlier and he benches like 550 RAW, ask him if he usually touches his chest? In addition most of the gyms I go to usually have a few people who are benching mid 4’s and I try to train with them, any time somebody is stronger in a lift than I am I try to train with them. I have had many training partners bench in the 4’s and one in the low 5’s.
I am not huge but not I am not skinny either, and I compete in a certain weight class.[/quote]
Don’t even try and start that bullshit argument. I have trained and competed in powerlifting for the last 18 months. I lift out 500+lb benches and board presses weekly so trust me, 400 doesn’t impress me.
I never said your friends couldn’t bench 400. I wanted to know how many were doing it for sets of 8.
The bench press in bodybuilding is a means to an end. Nobody cares how much you can press on stage.
Also, the bench press in powerlifting has become different with each passing generation. I’m not even talking about shirts but no doubt they have had an impact.
Hell if you wanna sit up there on your high horse and tell everyone the real definition of a bench press how about we go back to the beginning and starting cleaning the weight off the floor and sitting back onto the bench before pushing it. Lets get rid of those silly little racks.
Oh and why did you type “raw” as “RAW”. It’s not an accronym.
the question of Full ROM vs partials is simple
its a power thing,
some use it as an ego thing - these jokers go in the gym make alot of noise and then do some halfassed lift. (a.k.a Ronnie ),
others use it for a sticking point -these use it to push past a weak point (a.k.a arnold with his cheat sets),
yet others still use it for injury. a damaged shoulder kills a bench press one way to still bench with a bad shoulder is to stop just before the chest.
as for if its a bench will always be debated . some will say no , others yes.
I now stop a good 3-4 inches shy of the chest on flat bench, but can go a little lower on inclines. And I pretty much do the same with DB. Why? Because otherwise I feel “bad” pain at the shoulders, not the good, pumpep up feeling.
Does it allow me to bench more? Sure. But since I dont bench much anyway who cares? I do it way more for my shoulders than for my ego.
I have a “flat” ribcage and long arms so the BB actually travels more distance than one of my friends who has the “hairy bear” look - 240 pounds, a barrel of a ribcage and a pretty big chest. Even when he touches his chest his arm are not below 90 degrees.
So for powerlifting competition do touch, otherwise do what you feel will give ya the most gains with the least chance of injury. It’s called common sense.
[quote]sin 73 wrote:
WOW you guys take this serious
hope you don’t mind a noob - (my two cents)
the question of Full ROM vs partials is simple
its a power thing,
some use it as an ego thing - these jokers go in the gym make alot of noise and then do some halfassed lift. (a.k.a Ronnie ),
others use it for a sticking point -these use it to push past a weak point (a.k.a arnold with his cheat sets),
yet others still use it for injury. a damaged shoulder kills a bench press one way to still bench with a bad shoulder is to stop just before the chest.
as for if its a bench will always be debated . some will say no , others yes. [/quote]
You aren’t getting it. Partial reps are much more limited range of movement than what I am discussing. That is the point being made that some seem to not understand. If I am going to truly do partials, it is a very minor movement. I wouldn’t go as low or as high as I am trying to get across. Grazing my shirt or not letting the weight touch my chest does not make this a “partial rep” in the sense that term actually applies. This is much different than some newbie trying to lift far beyond what they are truly capable of.
Grazing my shirt or not letting the weight touch my chest does not make this a “partial rep” in the sense that term actually applies. [/quote]
As far as I am concerned, grazing the shirt IS touching the chest, no one is going to sensibly argue that point.
The OP asked about these guys who only come 4-6 inches off the chest (what is effectively a 3 or 4 board press). That is much different, especially since they probably aren’t consistent with their ROM. And the only reason they are stopping short is because they have to stop short to lift the weights they are using.
I think because you came out and said you stop short of the chest, everyone assumes that you are performing the lift in the same manner as the people that were being used as the example. You’ve made it clear that this is not the case.
I’m going to agree with Prof X on this one, If you are going well below your sticking point, it’s a good bench. For me, I can touch my chest, but it bothers my shoulder, so I’m about 1-2" off my chest even with light weights. I can touch my chest, but why? I have proportionally long arms, and it doesn’t feel quite right.
[quote]simon-hecubus wrote:
If you are pausing it on your chest, it is a rest position. That would be what that action is called.
Frankly, few people on this site need a lesson on stretch reflex, but you gave us one anyway — in a most condescending manner I might add. Not the way to make brownie points.[/quote]
I’ll be the first to admit that was a little condescending, but look what it was in response to. Prof X stated that pausing the bar on your chest was resting and made the lift easier. That couldn’t be farther from the truth. When someone is completely wrong on something very provable it should be pointed out. Prof X is pretty knowledgable on most stuff, actually I agree with his general training philosophy on most things, but that is totally backward and so I thought he needed a brush up on why that was the case. If he still thinks it is easier to rest the bar on your chest, he needs another brush up.
[quote]simon-hecubus wrote:
2. The stretch reflex and bouncing the bar off your chest are two entirely different things. Bouncing off the chest is a reflex response of your rib cage, not your muscles.[/quote]
It is actually both, the SR depends greatly on the speed of the eccentric motion, but I agree that some people do use their chest as a springboard and that is no good.
[quote]simon-hecubus wrote:
3. Properly performed, the SR involves only the last inch or two of the descent. In the bench, it should IDEALLY involve just grazing your chest or shirt too.[/quote]
Not sure where you got the idea that you need to do a full or near full ROM for a SR, any stretch can cause it, the greater or faster the stretch the more significant it is. The knee jerk reflex is an example of it and that is obviously not a big stretch.
I agree that you want to lightly touch the chest with the bar. Earlier I asked Prof X how far he did bring the bar down and he said he didn’t measure it and couldn’t give an estimate, except to say he went down until his chest was stretched. How do I know what that is? If he is really just grazing his shirt and touching his chest then fine, he is doing a real bench press. If he is stopping 2 inches or 4 inches short or whatever, then he is not doing a real bench press, he is a doing a partial. Taking 1 inch off the ROM is a partial just like taking 6 inches off it is, you just need to specify how much you are cutting it short. He didn’t mention the shirt grazing thing until much later.
Bottomline is if you don’t touch your chest it is not a bench press.
[quote]Z-Man wrote:
I’m going to agree with Prof X on this one, If you are going well below your sticking point, it’s a good bench. For me, I can touch my chest, but it bothers my shoulder, so I’m about 1-2" off my chest even with light weights. I can touch my chest, but why? I have proportionally long arms, and it doesn’t feel quite right.[/quote]
My sticking point is the top quarter of the range of motion, near lockout. Does that mean I can only come down halfway (past my sticking point) and then say I bench pressed it and it is a “good bench?”
[quote]nptitim wrote:
If he still thinks it is easier to rest the bar on your chest, he needs another brush up.
[/quote]
Let’s look at this statement. Note the brilliant retarded conclusion. If you think it is easier to REST a bar on your chest, I need to brush up? Yes, keep rolling out the hits. I never wrote anything about stopping 2-4 freaking inches above the chest. The main point being made is that I don’t allow the weight to REST…like you just wrote you do (I am sure you will try to change it now)…on my chest. I keep it from touching. I guess this concept is so amazingly out there that it is simply too difficult to grasp without relating it to stopping 4 inches above the chest.
I think the horse is dead. However, I have no problem beating it some more if you return a reply anything like what you just wrote.
Hey Prof, did you happen to read Poliquin’s article he just posted up, where he referenced some dude in Russia benching 500 something for 8 reps and he made a point to mention that he paused the bar on his chest for 2 reps? Wonder why he did that? I think Poliquin was trying to let everybody know how much easier it is to do that.
You can’t honestly believe that resting the bar on your chest is resting as in giving your body a break. Is the rib cage designed to support several hundred pounds lying on you? When you pause the bar, or rest the bar if you like, obviously your body is super tight and you are still supporting the bar. You don’t let it sink into your body (although that would not be easier, just super uncomfortable).
Is pausing at the bottom of a squat easier then just going down and up?
Is pausing at the bottom of a leg press easier than just going down and up?
Are dead hang pull-ups easier than a regular pull-ups with no hang (or rest) at the bottom?
And finally, for clarification, I’ll ask you one more time. How low do you bring the bar down to your chest? If you don’t know the exact answer ballpark it in terms of inches like 1/2 inch, 1 inch, 4 inches, whatever.
So obvious, profx knows what the stretch reflex is. Why are you still trying to explain it to him?
What’s easier, bringing the bar to a full stop 1/32" above your chest, and then pushing, or bringing it to a full stop with your chest supporting some of the weight, and then pushing?
And finally, for clarification, I’ll ask you one more time. How low do you bring the bar down to your chest? If you don’t know the exact answer ballpark it in terms of inches like 1/2 inch, 1 inch, 4 inches, whatever.[/quote]
This is why people need to post pictures on this forum. It would save time.
I don’t measure the distance because IT IS NOT RELEVANT. My goal is to work my chest thouroughly, not to simply touch the bar to my chest. I know when I feel the stretch in my muscles and when I need to press up. That comes from doing this for over a decade. Only newbies need everything spelled out for them to such a degree because they don’t have enough experience to make changes as necessary.
The point being made to you is that not touching your chest is a far cry from doing PARTIAL REPS. The two are not the same and we are not discussing powerlifting techniques and never have been in this thread.