[quote]Leeuwer wrote:
Just do the full press, ya homo. [/quote]
Your post from October 3, 2006:
Watch where you throw those names.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Leeuwer wrote:
Just do the full press, ya homo.
Your post from October 3, 2006:
Your package looks enormous here.
Watch where you throw those names.[/quote]
lol, golddigger.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Your entire post doesn’t show much aside from the fact that you don’t actually know many people who really train with over 400lbs for reps on this movement every single week. If you did, you would realize how ridiculous it is to believe someone that strong would somehow be unable to complete a full rep for a competition.
[/quote]
Did you even read my post? I was trying to give you credit for acknowledging that you realize it is easier and thus using an 8RM as your 1RM to compensate. I know plenty of people that bench over 400 lbs, and normally they chuckle when they see someone doing it as a partial all the time.
I never said YOU couldn’t do it for a full rep, I just said for some people those extra few inches make a huge difference and for some people it doesn’t. Normally the longer you train in that ROM the weaker you get in the other one. I assume you are familiar with the fact that you only get stronger in the ROM you train in.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
We aren’t talking about beginners or even most intermediate lifters here. Someone truly lifting above 400lbs as a true working weight for several reps is stronger than most people in most gyms. You are relating this to people much weaker and the same rules do not apply.
[/quote]
You jump around on issues like an ADHD person. I have said a million times that the technique of stopping short might be effective for developing mass in the chest, just don’t call it a bench press because it is not.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
If it helps you sleep better to believe that bodybuilders are somehow incapable of doing a full rep for a competition and that they are weaker, so be it. The truth will be sitting on the other side of the room waiting for you.
[/quote]
Again, learn to read. When did I say that bodybuilders are weak and don’t do a full rep. In fact, I used several examples of good, strong bodybuilders who do a full rep because they realize the benefits of it. I have a lot of respect for bodybuilders who train hard. As far as the “truth” sitting across the room from me, I am still waiting for these awesome partial bench pressers to come and show up at a competition but somehow they never do. Wonder why?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Stopping just short of my chest does not make this movement easier. It keeps constant tension on my pecs and takes away any rest positions. The same goes for locking out. If anything, that makes doing several reps HARDER, not easier. But of course, you simply want to believe otherwise.[/quote]
You called Bullshit to one of my posts, now I get to do the same to you. If you think stopping short makes it harder, give it up. You are losing credit the more you write. When you lightly touch the chest, where are you resting?
By your logic, pausing the rep in a competition is really easy because you get to rest and build up your strength while the bar is on your chest. And to think I and all the other hard core lifters out there have been taking it easy on myself by touching our chests. I’ll start doing partials on the leg press and squats, and rack pulls for deads because they are so much harder, from now on.
I think nptitim and Prof X should both post pictures and we can see who has the better chest…
That is if you can see it thru all of X’s “fat”.
This thread grows more retarded with every post.
nptitim, you said you know loads of people pushing over 400lbs, how many of them do this week in, week out for 8’s?
[quote]nptitim wrote:
Did you even read my post? I was trying to give you credit for acknowledging that you realize it is easier and thus using an 8RM as your 1RM to compensate. I know plenty of people that bench over 400 lbs, and normally they chuckle when they see someone doing it as a partial all the time. [/quote]
The rest of your post is garbage. Doing SEVERAL REPS while working a muscle through the part of an exercise that provides the greatest tension while avoiding rest positions is not “easier”. This concept seems to be a little much for you. Maybe you should read that a few times.
[quote]Hanley wrote:
I think nptitim and Prof X should both post pictures and we can see who has the better chest…
That is if you can see it thru all of X’s “fat”.
This thread grows more retarded with every post.
nptitim, you said you know loads of people pushing over 400lbs, how many of them do this week in, week out for 8’s?[/quote]
I think he’s confusing that with the guys who need a spotter to shrug half the weight as they get one and a half reps while arching their back.
[quote]Hanley wrote:
I think nptitim and Prof X should both post pictures and we can see who has the better chest…
That is if you can see it thru all of X’s “fat”.
This thread grows more retarded with every post.
nptitim, you said you know loads of people pushing over 400lbs, how many of them do this week in, week out for 8’s?[/quote]
This isn’t a discussion of chest development, this is a discussion of what the definition of a bench press is. Go back to my original post. Here is a summary: Partial benches may be okay for chest development but technically they should not be called bench presses, call them 3/4 benches or bodybuilding benches or whatever you want to call them. Do you disagree with any of that? If so then let’s debate it.
I am powerlifter so there are a lot of people in that sport that bench over 400. I agree that is rare for a normal gym goer to bench that much. Meat posted earlier and he benches like 550 RAW, ask him if he usually touches his chest? In addition most of the gyms I go to usually have a few people who are benching mid 4’s and I try to train with them, any time somebody is stronger in a lift than I am I try to train with them. I have had many training partners bench in the 4’s and one in the low 5’s.
I am not huge but not I am not skinny either, and I compete in a certain weight class. If you want to see a pic of me (lifting) look through my old posts, there is one there I forget what the title is, somebody asked the regulars to post pics but only a few people did so it died kind of quick.
[quote]nptitim wrote:
This isn’t a discussion of chest development,[/quote]
It isn’t? That is exactly what we are discussing. That, and why some of you seem to think training this way is “easier” or somehow less effective at producing strength gains.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Doing SEVERAL REPS while working a muscle through the part of an exercise that provides the greatest tension while avoiding rest positions is not “easier”. This concept seems to be a little much for you. [/quote]
do you pause at all prof or is it all pumped out without stopping?
a pause above the chest and before lockout would be about as hard as a pause on the chest and at lockout. …
EDIT: actually not locking out but holding the weight stationary just before lockout would be way harder… . most benchers tend to lock out no nptitim?
[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Doing SEVERAL REPS while working a muscle through the part of an exercise that provides the greatest tension while avoiding rest positions is not “easier”. This concept seems to be a little much for you.
do you pause at all prof or is it all pumped out without stopping?
a pause above the chest and before lockout would be about as hard as a pause on the chest and at lockout. …
[/quote]
I dont pause at all and my reps are fairly quick. Mind you, I haven’t mentioned the actual weight I use because it isn’t relevant. I will say that I hit 405lbs on the bench press about 6 years ago for the first time.
How about: “A bench press is an exercise in which the participant lowers the barbell towards the chest. In power lifting competitions, where the strength of the competitor is tested, the bar must be lowered all the way to the chest. When used as an exercise modality, the bar may be lowered to different heights as a variation on the stricter form used in competitions.”
[quote]Professor X wrote:
nptitim wrote:
This isn’t a discussion of chest development,
It isn’t? That is exactly what we are discussing. That, and why some of you seem to think training this way is “easier” or somehow less effective at producing strength gains. [/quote]
I’ve read back through this thread and I need some clarification on what you think are resting positions. I would agree that there is a degree of rest when you lockout the bar between reps but not when you bring the bar down and pause it on the chest. Once you bring the bar down to the chest and pause it, you remove the stretch reflex thus making the movemnent one of brute strength.
If I’m understanding you correctly, you are saying that you keep the bar moving the entire time and stop the bar short of the chest by about an inch and don’t lock the bar out. The only comparison that I can draw between what you are doing and my training is to use the one board for benching. I can pause 550 on my chest for a count of three. If I use the one board which restricts my motion by roughly what you are doing I can hit close to 600. I’m not pausing on the board, just lightly touching it. The conclusion I draw is that stopping the bar short of the chest is, in fact, easier.
meat
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
I would agree that there is a degree of rest when you lockout the bar between reps but not when you bring the bar down and pause it on the chest.[/quote]
If you are pausing it on your chest, it is a rest position. That would be what that action is called. Further, the people who you see bouncing the bar off their chest are resting even more. The weight wouldn’t come back under full control of the pectoral muscles and supporting muscle groups until after the momentum of the bounce had decreased.
[quote]
Once you bring the bar down to the chest and pause it, you remove the stretch reflex thus making the movemnent one of brute strength.
If I’m understanding you correctly, you are saying that you keep the bar moving the entire time and stop the bar short of the chest by about an inch and don’t lock the bar out.[/quote]
I have given no measurement here at all. I stop just short of my chest. That may be stopping at the point that it grazes my shirt. My point is, my stopping point is the point that I feel a stretch in my pecs, not some arbitrary “one inch”. Further, your stretch reflex being allowed to “deactivate” is A rest position.
[quote]
The only comparison that I can draw between what you are doing and my training is to use the one board for benching. I can pause 550 on my chest for a count of three. If I use the one board which restricts my motion by roughly what you are doing I can hit close to 600. I’m not pausing on the board, just lightly touching it. The conclusion I draw is that stopping the bar short of the chest is, in fact, easier.
meat[/quote]
Once again, we are not… ARE NOT…discussing one rep maxes here but several reps. That is what changes everything. Not only that, but I have not mentioned any specific distance.
Doing a heavy weight for ten reps is NOT the same as trying to see how much you can get for one rep by changing the distance the weight travels. Fatigue is introduced along with failure, not just failure alone.
This is not a discussion of powerlifting technique, which seems to be the only way some of you can comprehend what is being said.
[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:
EDIT: actually not locking out but holding the weight stationary just before lockout would be way harder… . most benchers tend to lock out no nptitim?
[/quote]
I think it depends what you mean by holding at the top. Clearly it is harder to hold a weight in a position like a near lockout then in a locked out position, where you bones are doing most of the support. Without a significant pause at the top it is definitely easier to press the bar up just short of lockout and then come back down compared to doing a full lockout. I personally like to stop an inch or two before locking out to keep the emphasis on my chest, otherwise my triceps fatigue first, but if I do a set of 10 reps I note that I stopped short of lockout and it was easier than doing a set of 10 with full lockout. I also always strive to make the last rep “perfect” on compound exercises, then you always know that you can do it, but that is just a personal thing.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
If you are pausing it on your chest, it is a rest position. That would be what that action is called. Further, the people who you see bouncing the bar off their chest are resting even more. The weight wouldn’t come back under full control of the pectoral muscles and supporting muscle groups until after the momentum of the bounce had decreased.
so you are telling me that bring the bar to my chest and pausing it is rest? try it sometime. It take all the momentum out of the movement. I would love to hear from anyone that agrees with you on that one. If that’s true then why wouldn’t bench press competitions just be touch and go instead of paused? The reason is so there isn’t any stretch reflex or momentum involved.
meat
[quote]Professor X wrote:
nptitim wrote:
This isn’t a discussion of chest development,
It isn’t? That is exactly what we are discussing. That, and why some of you seem to think training this way is “easier” or somehow less effective at producing strength gains. [/quote]
LOL - It must be fun to change the subject to avoid losing a debate. Here is what our very first interaction was about:
Me
Not touching your chest is not a bench press. I am not saying that it can’t be effective, but it is a different exercise. Just like I don’t 3 board press something and say I just benched it, you can’t not touch your chest and call it a bench press.
You
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Bullshit. Actually touching your chest is not a requirement for that movement just like a squat doesn’t HAVE to be done with your ass touching the ground to be considered a squat. [/quote]
Now where in there are we talking about chest development and not talking about what the definition of a bench press is?
[quote]onewall wrote:
How about: “A bench press is an exercise in which the participant lowers the barbell towards the chest. In power lifting competitions, where the strength of the competitor is tested, the bar must be lowered all the way to the chest. When used as an exercise modality, the bar may be lowered to different heights as a variation on the stricter form used in competitions.”
[/quote]
Good post. I appreciate the sentiment in trying to compromise but personally I don’t feel a compromise is necessary on this issue as there is already an accepted definition: you need to touch your chest for it to count (along with a host of other things like keep your butt down, not a huge bounce, etc). For the record that is not a powerlifting bench, in PL you must pause it on your chest, so that is called a competition bench press or a pause bench press.
What is the most common gym question asked? How much do you bench? In that question is an inherent understanding of the form on the exercise - sure some people try to get by with poor form but when they are discovered they are called out. Changing that definition then opens up a whole can of worms. The goal should be to get everyone on the same page, and having the same operational definitions is a key step in that process. There are enough names and types of exercises for it to be confusing, trying to reclassify existing and accepted exercises I think would be a step in the wrong direction.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
If you are pausing it on your chest, it is a rest position. That would be what that action is called. Further, the people who you see bouncing the bar off their chest are resting even more. The weight wouldn’t come back under full control of the pectoral muscles and supporting muscle groups until after the momentum of the bounce had decreased.
[/quote]
You need to look up the stretch reflex to understand what is happening. It is a key principle in how muscles work and how force is generated. It is caused by muscle spindles. Sometimes it is referred to as the Stretch Shortening Cycle (SSC). Basically muscles are somewhat elastic like rubber bands and when you stretch and hold them they contract much weaker then when you stretch and contract them immediately. Imagine doing a normal vertical jump and then trying one where you squat down in the same position but hold for a 2 count and then jump, your vertical will be much worse.
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
so you are telling me that bring the bar to my chest and pausing it is rest? try it sometime. It take all the momentum out of the movement. I would love to hear from anyone that agrees with you on that one. If that’s true then why wouldn’t bench press competitions just be touch and go instead of paused? The reason is so there isn’t any stretch reflex or momentum involved.
meat
[/quote]
Meat - good post. I wish my pause max was the same as my touch and go 
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
Professor X wrote:
If you are pausing it on your chest, it is a rest position. That would be what that action is called. Further, the people who you see bouncing the bar off their chest are resting even more. The weight wouldn’t come back under full control of the pectoral muscles and supporting muscle groups until after the momentum of the bounce had decreased.
so you are telling me that bring the bar to my chest and pausing it is rest? try it sometime. It take all the momentum out of the movement. I would love to hear from anyone that agrees with you on that one. If that’s true then why wouldn’t bench press competitions just be touch and go instead of paused? The reason is so there isn’t any stretch reflex or momentum involved.
meat
[/quote]
Yes, I am telling you that. By not touching your chest or pausing at all you are actually putting more stress on the muscle because you are pushing against that “momentum” instead of allowing the weight to come to a complete stop.
Gravity takes weights DOWN. Bodybuilders use that negative portion of the movement because it is believed it builds more muscle while a powerlifter is simply concerned about getting the weight in position for the rest of the lift. That means a bodybuilder should be lowering a weight under much more control.
The rules in powerlifting are designed to prevent cheating, not because they are worried about who builds some muscle during a meet.