New to Cycles

My stats are:

23 yo, 6 feet tall, 220 lbs.
Nationally competitive olympic weightlifter since 17. Now im out due to med school but still training 10x week on average, not including squash. My diet is great, i average 2g/kg of protein. The cycle ive been planning is:

wk 1-10- T400 400mg+ deca 150mg x 2/week
wk 1-10- aromasin 25 mg qd
wk 12- 5000 IU HCG with oral clomid and nova
wk 13-14- oral clomid and nova

nova on hand the whole time, I had a bad experience with prohormones so im sketchy on side effects.
The deca is in there in low dose to help deal with injection pain from the T400.
Thoughts?

Have you read the stickies yet?

You train 10 time per week, and play squash, all while in med school?

Also, 2g of protein per kilogram of bodyweight isn’t that much. Just sayin’.

You piss out any more. believe me we’ve tested. haha. Apparently without any interventions you can maximally absorb 1.8 gr/kg. I guess I could give some background… My undergrad is in kineisiology with focus on exercise physiology and biomechanics. My research publications include a creatine series study, a biomechanical analysis of the olympic clean, and yep a protein absorption assay. haha.

Yeah the gym keeps me sane, so Im there a lot. When I moved away from national team I couldnt bear to ditch the lifestyle. Plus as of now I squat 220kg and clean and jerk 182.5 kg, I dont wanna lose that. As far as reading, ive done a lot of research, mainly on our med databases, but all the faq/stickies as well. I am mainly looking for some real world advice. I’m trying to play it safe with the aromasin every day, and it seems that my PCT is overkill as well, also my goal. Im finding that its a pick and stick type thing, with so many trains of thought to confuse even the most composed. I just wanna make sure Im on the right track. what do you guys think? Is this cycle gonna be ok?

What is your reason for using deca? (Cutting another steroid is not a real answer, you can use filtered oil for that)

Why are you using that dose of hCG at that time?

The deca helps to lubricate joints, and is indicated for strength gains. Those effects are favorable for me, in addition others seemed to have good success at reducing the injection pain, a perk. I also like that deca has low estrogen potential, the progestin thing is an issue, hence the SERMS, proven to help with progestin as well. The HCG is to mimic LH in the body (very potent at that) and help to kickstart the leydig cells in the gonads to producting my own test again. Timing wise I’m not entirely sure as to when I should start PCT with this cycle, from what I gather 2 weeks seems to be when test has dropped enough to be physiologically depressed, and therefore augmentation is needed. But I’m unclear on this aspect. Any input?

Deca is not great for strength gains, not at all. More test would certainly be better. Joint lubrication is a nice effect.

As I said sterile oil is what most people use to cut down injection pain.

A SERM will not help with prolactin based side effects. Even if they did, you don’t have one included during your cycle. A dopamine antagonist in pill form is needed.

That is not the proper way to use hCG WRT to steroid cycling or TRT. What you have proposed seems to be some form of an outdated protocol. HCG is to be used in low doses during the cycle to keep the testes from atrophying, which will aid in recovery.

2 weeks after the last injection of the enanthate ester is the accepted timing. Nandrolone has a longer ester, however, so it would be wise to stop the deca a week before the last T injection.

How often are you injecting the test? Which esters are present, if it’s a blend?

Both clomid and nolvadex is overkill. One or the other will do the job. Most people prefer nolvadex due to less side effects.

Why do you plan to start with such a high dose of the AI?

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
A dopamine antagonist in pill form is needed.

[/quote]

Agonist bonez, he wants a dopamine agonist = ). I wasn’t going to say anything but you said antagonist on another thread as well. Dopamine Antagonists are called anti-psychotics lol…Prolactin antagonists would be right as well = )

[quote]bbb1080 wrote:
My stats are:

23 yo, 6 feet tall, 220 lbs.
Nationally competitive olympic weightlifter since 17. Now im out due to med school but still training 10x week on average, not including squash. My diet is great, i average 2g/kg of protein. The cycle ive been planning is:

wk 1-10- T400 400mg+ deca 150mg x 2/week
wk 1-10- aromasin 25 mg qd
wk 12- 5000 IU HCG with oral clomid and nova
wk 13-14- oral clomid and nova

nova on hand the whole time, I had a bad experience with prohormones so im sketchy on side effects.
The deca is in there in low dose to help deal with injection pain from the T400.
Thoughts?[/quote]

Move the HcG during the cycle, if you want to use it. It is better used to maintain “normal” testicular fn, while on. 100iu qod would suffice. LH is pulsed in small amounts, so why would you do one “blast” at the end of the cycle? For PCT I would personally do 10mg EXE and 20mg Tamox everyday, you dont need clomid as well. I would use frontload your stuff as well.

I’m not going to derail this thread into a “how much protein you can utilize” thread, however, I do think it’s worth pointing out that one can utilize more protein while using AAS, so it would be smart for you to increase protein while on (and after, to keep as much lean mass as possible.)

Nova is a SERM, which does have protective effects on progesterone (not prolactin-- maybe a typo?)
T400 is prop,cyp and enanthate. injected twice weekly.
I start with a high dose AI because i am a bit prone to side effects, and because 25 mg isnt a huge dose any extra will not cause harm. Better to be safe i figure. As far as the PCT we, in practice, have had very good results with a 1500- 2500 IU of HCG every 3-5 days for 2-3 weeks to help stimulate the testis following the test crash after a cycle.

Clinically this is how it has been tested and thus im tempted to use it that way. Plus again there are distinct trains of thought as to this subject, I prefer the medically based. The same goes for the Deca, it has been proven safe in all the HIV studies in close to this dosage, so im inclined to be ok with it. As for the rest of the PCT, clomid is a bit suppressive on GnRH whereas Nova is a bit stimulatory, together (not in huge doses) they work very well at re-establishing normal pituitary secretions.

Youve got me on the protein thing. I was meaning that under normal physiological conditions the body cant absorb more than that. We arent allowed to research anabolics! haha. I agree with you though, I will up my protein accordingly. thanks

[quote]Detroitlionsbaby wrote:
BONEZ217 wrote:
A dopamine antagonist in pill form is needed.

Agonist bonez, he wants a dopamine agonist = ). I wasn’t going to say anything but you said antagonist on another thread as well. Dopamine Antagonists are called anti-psychotics lol…Prolactin antagonists would be right as well = )[/quote]

fuck. I used to confuse them all the time. Then I got it right for a while and now I started second guessing myself without bothering to double check. My bad everyone reading.

Edit

Please don’t avoid correcting me. I’d much rather be corrected than have posts floating around with bad info. I don’t post to prove my knowledge, I just try to help people.

What type of pts are you talking about, right now. Unless it is healthy eugonadic males, (which I am assuming you are) why would you automatically assume their dose as your own? You do not have a pathological condition lowering your sensitivity to LH, nor do your leydig cells have any deficiencies. You are just trying to maintain normal fn, not correct for a disease state.

[quote]
As for the rest of the PCT, clomid is a bit suppressive on GnRH whereas Nova is a bit stimulatory, together (not in huge doses) they work very well at re-establishing normal pituitary secretions. [/quote]

Well how about the up-regulation of aromatase due to high amounts of androgen substrate? Don’t you think a suicidial inhibitor might be beneficial post cycle when returning to physiological concentration of androgens?

You have a study, in males, showing clomiphene suppresses GnRH? Could you reproduce that, please?

[quote]bbb1080 wrote:
Nova is a SERM, which does have protective effects on progesterone (not prolactin-- maybe a typo?)
T400 is prop,cyp and enanthate. injected twice weekly.
I start with a high dose AI because i am a bit prone to side effects, and because 25 mg isnt a huge dose any extra will not cause harm. Better to be safe i figure. As far as the PCT we, in practice, have had very good results with a 1500- 2500 IU of HCG every 3-5 days for 2-3 weeks to help stimulate the testis following the test crash after a cycle.

Clinically this is how it has been tested and thus im tempted to use it that way. Plus again there are distinct trains of thought as to this subject, I prefer the medically based. The same goes for the Deca, it has been proven safe in all the HIV studies in close to this dosage, so im inclined to be ok with it. As for the rest of the PCT, clomid is a bit suppressive on GnRH whereas Nova is a bit stimulatory, together (not in huge doses) they work very well at re-establishing normal pituitary secretions. [/quote]

I’d be interested in seeing the literature on the effects of a SERM on progesterone. Please add the ‘L’ in ‘nolva’, I’m just being anal at this point. When you say a SERM protects against effects of progesterone, what specifically are you talking about? Gyno?

Deca raises prolactin. A SERM will not help that.

Deca is certainly not unsafe in the dose you are using. How effective it will be is another story. Hell, at that dose you may not even get any prolactin based side effects. If you know you need the joint support from deca, then use it but my opinion would be to leave it out (since its a first cycle) or up the dose and use it what it’s meant for, packing on serious muscle. When I used it at 300mg/wk it was very nice but the prolactin sides are real. Play it safe and get cabergoline in pill form. Lubricated joints are not worth the possible libido loss, ED and/or anorgasmia.

I’ll give it a go, it wasn’t profound at all, practically it just seems as though the 2 balance one another out well. HCG is sometimes used following testosterone deprivation therapy or following chemical castration. Ive also had the fortune to observe the labs of a few gents coming off cycles. Because the hypothalamus is so negatively influenced and LH is virtually undetectable, it is a bit of a diseased state. But HCG can correct this usually fairly effectively.

[quote]bbb1080 wrote:
I’ll give it a go, it wasn’t profound at all, practically it just seems as though the 2 balance one another out well. HCG is sometimes used following testosterone deprivation therapy or following chemical castration. Ive also had the fortune to observe the labs of a few gents coming off cycles. Because the hypothalamus is so negatively influenced and LH is virtually undetectable, it is a bit of a diseased state. But HCG can correct this usually fairly effectively.[/quote]

I am not saying that the way you posted the dosing of HcG it is not effective. Just not optimal. You know that LH receptors have the potential to be desensitized, down-regulated etc. Why risk it? Low dose throughout cycle, would basically prevent any change in testicular fn.

Ive heard varying accounts. Taking a low dose throughout would end up being more HCG, maybe higher risk of desensitization? at 5000 IU total, desensitization is a very low risk, but im admittedly not an authority on this
I am so freaking confused now, haha.
back to bone… I will be combining 150mg of deca with each 400 mg T400 shot. So 300 mg/week. You had side effects with this dose? If so were they nullified with the clomifene? what was the dose used? Ive only came across clomifene in relation to off label use to offset the effects of SSRI’s.
Im not too worried about the joint lubrication, I was mainly using it to counter the pain of the T-400. im not super familiar with cutting it with sterile oil, where do you get it? which oil is prefered?

Well 300mg is a nice dose of deca for building muscle. I think it is completely overkill for a first cycle. If you do experience side effects while using two drugs that you have no experience with how will know which drug is causing the problem. In addition, how will you know the amount of each drug you can tolerate without having a ‘control’ to base it off of. Do a cycle of 400-500mg of T per week for 8 weeks. Then 3 or 4 cycles in the future add deca to 4-500mg of T. If new sides show up you will know exactly what is causing it.

There is also no need to use deca simply because you will gain all the mass you need from testosterone alone, being a first cycle and all. This is assuming you know how to eat and train to gain mass and eat and train to retain the mass after you come off.

Clomid will do nothing for side effects caused by elevated prolactin. A SERM is not the right drug to control the side effects of nandrolone. Cabergoline is the more common drug to use. I beleive people are also using selegeline (sp?) to control prolactin. I had good results with 1mg of cabergoline split bi-weekly.

Oil for cutting can be accquired for cutting pre sterilized or you can go to the supermarket and buy some oil and run it through a whatman .22um filter and sterilize it yourself. The latter is far cheaper. Cottonseed, grapeseed, vegetable are all usable.

You aren’t really going to get anyone to agree with your ideas on hCG usage here. Thousands of people on TRT are using low dose hCG to maintain the size of their testicles. It works the same way in men doing steroid cycles.

And one final thing. Injecting a blend of prop, cyp, and enanthate twice a week will essentially waste the prop ester. The levels of prop will fall off before the next injection. This will cause blood levels to fluctuate. Not much since there probably isn’t much prop per ml, but theoretically it would be better to inject it EOD.