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Why do you have to take it before 9am?
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Why only 6 caps once a day? Why not 6 caps 2x a day (12 caps, 200mg/day)? Cy Wilson Wrote in “The Never Ending Cycle” to take 100-200mg/day so I was wondering if you can take up to 200mg a day. If you can take 200mg, should you seperate it 6caps am, 6 caps 12 hours later or take all 12 caps in the am?
I was wondering the same thing. I posted the comments below in another post, but I’ll copy them here because I didn’t get a reply.
Looking at an old bottle of 4AD-EC I had laying around, I see that each serving contains 200mg. The new formula is only 100mg per serving and allows only 1 dose/day where the old one allowed 2 doses, which would be 400mg vs 100mg.
It’s possible that the propylcarbonate ester contains more base 4-AD than the diethylcarbonate ester they used previously, but I’m not a chemist. Otherwise, the deilivery system would have to be 4 times more effective to get the same blood levels of 4AD achieved by the previous formula (or 8 times more effective for “double the feel”) from the 6 capsule max dose vs 2 9ml servings of 4AD-EC.
I’d guess they’re just being conservative with the dosing recommendations to reduce potential side effects. For example - “take before 9am” could help reduce sleep issues and slightly reduce natural test inhibition by following natural hormone rhythms more closely.
Hopefully they’ll step in soon with a full blown technical article explaining exactly how the new 4AD is better than the old or at least quantify what an equivalent dosage is (6 capsules = ?? mg of old formula) to achieve/sustain the same blood levels of 4AD.
Yeah, hopefully soon they will explain…Chris, TC, Tim, Cy???
ML, your question was answered in the 4-AD-EC product area. The new nano-dispersion delivery system makes smaller doses much more effective. In addition, the new 4-AD-EC uses a different ester than the old one.
-Forum Moderator
Is the new ester better than A1-E, or is it even compare to A1-E or does this new product have nothing to do with the A1-E in Mag-10? This new 4-AD sounds like Mag-10 without the A1-E? Any clarification? Thanks.
The new ester used in 4-AD-EC is unrelated to A1-E. 4-AD-EC is a Class II androgen, whereas A1-E is a Class I androgen. MAG-10 has always contained 4-AD-EC and A1-E.
Six capsules of 4-AD-EC provides an effective dose for supporting muscle gains, fat loss, and enhanced recovery. The daily dose should be taken prior to 9 am to minimize the risk of HPTA suppression.
-Forum Moderator
Alpha,
I read the description in the product info section and there are a total of three sentences there.
Biotest and T-Mag/Nation have always operated on the idea of giving customers enough information to make informed decisions on their products. It is because of this that I have tried almost every Biotest product at one time or other and now spend most of my supplement dollars on Biotest products.
Simply telling customers “this stuff is better because it has nano dispersion” isn’t going to cut it for those of us who are used to 7 page informational ads like the one released for Mag 10. I added my questions and comments to John’s post rather than through email because I’m sure many other people are curious as well.
I don’t think it’s too much to ask for some clarification on the statement “twice as effective” because it can be interpreted three different ways (mg to mg, dose to dose, or max daily dose to max daily dose) and these three answers vary by a factor of 4.
Regards,
ML
ML, I couldn’t have said it better myself.
[quote]T-Alpha wrote:
The new nano-dispersion delivery system makes smaller doses much more effective.
-Forum Moderator[/quote]
This seems to indicate that the new 4-AD-EC is more effective on a dose basis, not mg basis or anything else.
[quote]T-Alpha wrote:
ML, your question was answered in the 4-AD-EC product area. The new nano-dispersion delivery system makes smaller doses much more effective. In addition, the new 4-AD-EC uses a different ester than the old one.
-Forum Moderator[/quote]
This seems to indicate that the new 4-AD-EC is more effective on a dose basis.
Thus, it’s reasonable to expect a dose of the new 4-AD-EC to be up to twice the equivelant of two doses of the original formula.
At least this is what I’ve been experiencing with the new formula.
Stop being a bunch of babies and try it if you want. After all, Biotest has a money-back guarantee, so how can you go wrong?
ML, JD:
As much of a bonus that further information would be, I’m guessing that since this is merely a ramped up version of an old product, and that because this is also a temporary product that will only be sold for the short while leading up to the pro-hormone ban might be why there aren’t any full out articles on it.
Further dosing information is of course helpful if we can get it but I don’t think it’s that big of a deal.
Here is a cut from another thread on this topic.
Let Cy out of his cage. I need to ask him a question.
I was re reading some of the back issues and ran across your article The Never Ending Cycle back in issue 206. In it, you advocate 100 to 200 mg 4AD-EC for a 16 week cycle.
Since Biotest revved up this supplement with Nano Dispersion Technology, I wanted to get your thoughts on the dosing protocol advocated in your article.
Response:
Being as I don’t have any exact data on how great the improvement of oral bioavailability would be when this delivery system is employed with androgens, I can really only give guesstimates. I honestly don’t believe it will be a tremendous change, but enough to where you could make a note. With that being said, some arbitrary figures would be 75-150 mg/day.
Hope this was of some help.[/quote]
Maybe litespeed is right. Just try it.
Cy’s reply was one of the things that got me thinking about relative effectiveness. He believes the improvement to be on the order of 30%, which is a lot lower than the 800% discussed by our babysitter above.
My guess is that the actual number lies somewhere around 200 - 400% (mg to mg). I plan to use the bottle I ordered for a long dieting cycle to prevent muscle loss, but don’t want to use any more than needed. I was hoping to get some info from Biotest to help me choose the correct sub-maximal dose for this cycle. I’ll probably start with three a day if we don’t hear back and work my way up/down from there. My main concern is that by the time I determine the correct dose and decide if I want to stock up, the supplement will be off the market.
In addition to this, I’d like to know just for the sake of knowing. This is, after all, “Bodybuilding’s Think Tank” and many readers like to know exactly how the supplements they buy do the things they claim. I understand that Tim and the other guys are very busy and this product will only be around a short while, but I’m sure there must be some information available other than the few sentences we keep seeing.
I AM USING THE PRODUCT!!! I bought 7 bottles of it! I just wanted to know more about it thats all. I’ve used mag-10 since it first came out and I used 4ad as well.
I just wanted to find out more information on the product! Sorry, I didn’t think it was a crime to ask questions. I thought that’s what the forum was for. My bad.
[quote]ML wrote:
Cy’s reply was one of the things that got me thinking about relative effectiveness. He believes the improvement to be on the order of 30%, which is a lot lower than the 800% discussed by our babysitter above.
My guess is that the actual number lies somewhere around 200 - 400% (mg to mg). I plan to use the bottle I ordered for a long dieting cycle to prevent muscle loss, but don’t want to use any more than needed. I was hoping to get some info from Biotest to help me choose the correct sub-maximal dose for this cycle. I’ll probably start with three a day if we don’t hear back and work my way up/down from there. My main concern is that by the time I determine the correct dose and decide if I want to stock up, the supplement will be off the market.
In addition to this, I’d like to know just for the sake of knowing. This is, after all, “Bodybuilding’s Think Tank” and many readers like to know exactly how the supplements they buy do the things they claim. I understand that Tim and the other guys are very busy and this product will only be around a short while, but I’m sure there must be some information available other than the few sentences we keep seeing.[/quote]
I’m copying and pasting an e-mail response I recently made as it may help a little with some confusion:
Luckily, I check my spam/junk folder every so often just in case my AOL account filtered out an actual e-mail message.
Anyhow, I’ll reply to each question below.
Cy, Sorry if this is your personal email. You replied to a question of mine last year and I still have it saved in my email and I needed your expert advice…
In regards to Biotest’s New 4-AD-EC:
- Why do you have to take it before 9am?
There was some data indicating that if an orally administered, exogenous androgen (with a short half-life) were taken early in the AM, in effect, mimicking the circadian rhythm with testosterone production which typically is marked by a large release in the AM, in fact, the largest of the day, you’d prevent inhibition of endogenous testosterone production. Anyhow, the theory was that by doing this, you could lessen the potential inhibition of LH and hence endogenous testosterone production. Anyhow, when they actually looked at this in at least one study that Bill Roberts brought forth, it actually was rather successful. I never mentioned it in my Never Ending Cycle, but should have as it’s certainly not a bad idea.
- Why only 6 caps once a day? Why not 6 caps 2x a day (12 caps, 200mg/day)?
The oral bioavailability has been significantly improved via two methods. One, the delivery system is specifically designed for compounds which are highly lipophilic (e.g., androgens) and normally have poor oral bioavailability. The nanodispersion allows for a significant increase in bioavailability. Secondly, the molecule itself is different. That is, there’s a propylcarbonate ester, so the carbon chain is longer, hence there’s a larger or more bulky substituent at the hydroxyl group(s) on the molecule. The increase in carbon chain length yields both an increase in bioavailability and should yield a longer half-life as well.
Anyhow, so, because of this, you don’t need as much of the 4-AD to get the same effect as before. In other words, let’s say that, and this is purely an illustrative example, with the old formula, for every 200 mg of 4-AD-EC you took, 75 mg of 4-AD actually reached your bloodstream. Ok, now with the improved bioavailability provided by the new delivery system and longer carbon chain on the alkylcarbonate ester, let’s say that for every 100 mg of 4-AD-PC you take, you get 75 mg of 4-AD which actually reaches systemic circulation. See how the improved bioavailability allows for a smaller amount to be used? Hope that makes sense.
As for a mg/mg comparison, well, that’s not really accurate. An improvement in bioavailability shouldn’t be confused with the creation of a more potent steroid molecule as it’s simply an issue of taking a given amount and getting more which actually reaches systemic circulation. Essentially, the actual potency of a molecule and bioavailability should not be confused.
A quick illustration. Let’s say you administered two different compounds intravenously, thus yielding 100% bioavailability. Upon measuring the potency of each steroid molecule, we find that androgen A causes a 200% increase in muscle growth over controls. With androgen B, we find it causes a 100% increase. Now, we administer each compound orally. Now, we find that androgen A actually causes only a small 10% increase in muscle growth over controls while androgen B causes a 50% increase in muscle over controls. What does this tell us? It tells us that while androgen A may be more “potent” than androgen B, the difference in oral bioavailability results in androgen B causing a greater increase when it comes to the desired effect. In effect, more is reaching systemic circulation.
Yeah what Cy said…
Cy: since you chimed in I have another one for you. Would the 6pills once a day work as well for the newer version of Mag-10 or should I stick to my 3 pills twice a day.
Thanks for the help
DA
Hrmmm Mag-10, although it uses the nano-disperssion, is a different animal.
Remember, it’s 4ad along with 1a, and remember based on what Cy just said that this version of 4ad is using a different molecule.
For Mag-10 6 caps is a full dose, and you can take two doses daily max recommended.
Fellers I think we’re making it to difficult. We get a product with recommended dosages, if you want to spread the product longer or see how you respond to it then take lower than the recommended dosage, or fewer dosages daily. If you want better results then up the dosage amount or daily dosages.
DeVito,
Why’d you buy 7 bottles? Just curious.
Cuz they are banning pro-hormones in the next month or so so I can stock up for use over the next couple of years.