Cherry Pick much? Check out the Incline Flyes. Plenty of REtraction there.
Doug Brignole is agains shoulder presses too .
Watching some of his videos. Very interesting knowledgeable guy.
For my part, I have never understood the reverence for lifting heavy stuff over your head.
Because its awesome.
Picking stuff up off the ground and putting it over your head is probably the most instinctive, primal exercise going and will never not be awesome.
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…and Dan John, who I greatly admire and respect, says very much the same thing. But it’s the one thing I don’t agree with him on. It may be instinctive as a game, as a show of strength. But outside of that, when does anyone or anything primal ever do it?
I do it almost daily. I did yesterday and today lol
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For a primal being, you write really well.
I mean, our hands and arms developed to do heavy strenuous stuff primarily in front of us or below us. I think. I’m not primal anymore.
Oh yes, that’s where I stole it from.
My thoughts on the “primal” nature of it is that there’s nothing that says “I dominated this weight” more than picking it up and putting it over your head.
If you want something more logical: having a big Press necessitates big shoulders, big arms, a big back, and legs and core strong enough to hold you. All of these things are good things. Look at the physiques of top strict presses if you’re unsure. Or Google mythicalstrength press drives progress for the same arguments and more, but written by an adult. @T3hPwnisher
Not even 24 hours apart.
Powerlifters aren’t trying to maintain the subacromial space, they are trying to reduce ROM. They are not a good case study for maintaining shoulder health.
Me like presses on bench and overhead. Big muscles good
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I’m a hillbilly and work a blue collar job
No doy - the stretching of the chest requires retraction. Every exercise he does for chest ends with protraction. I never argued against the lengthening portion of an exercise, only that there must be a shortening portion. The contraction requires protraction, which he goes into when he’s at the top of the flyes. Definitely not a cherry pick - just the easiest exercise to see the protraction in. I’m confused as to your point here - are you arguing that retraction is the key to contraction or something? Kind of sounded that way when combined with your powerlifting comment. Either way, I had figured the conversation was at an “agreed to disagree” point.
push,pull-yes ,pick stuff of the ground-yes . but,over the head is not essential move in primal life.
we do not in need to lift rocks,wood or anything over the head in cave .
The “primal” argument is always amusing, as is the idea that when we were hunter-gatherers, we never left the caves or had to do anything overhead. Throwing spears, swinging hatchets, etc. if you don’t like overhead stuff, don’t do it, but we aren’t Neanderthals - we are physically different beings than what you’re describing.
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All this caveman/weight training talk seems extremely odd IMO. Whether cavemen lifted things overhead or not… I don’t see cavemen weight training at all, but who’s to say?
Overhead lifting builds muscle that looks extremely masculine. IMO, the only pertinent question is whether it’s a risk of injury. And if it is, are there hand positions, angles, bar paths, etc. that reduce the risk?
“I suck at OHP” is not a good reason to oppose overhead movements.
Then I ask, what does overhead lifting have to do with incline chest exercises, unless the incline is nearly vertical? IMO, the lower incline positions are preferred for incline movements.
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Y’all remember the guy who wouldn’t warm up prior to lifting heavy because ‘lions don’t warm up before taking down a prey’? He also advocated eating nothing but raw meat, again because lions. I don’t know if he’d endorse overhead lifting per se, but I think he would endorse this line of reasoning. 
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Agree on these points. With regard to reducing risk of injury via hand positions and such, one of the best for this from both an orthopedic standpoint as well as performance, is doing overhead pressing with dumbbells and employing a parallel grip. There is a significant advantage, as it reduces the degree of internal rotation of the humerus, thereby making it less likely to cause impingement, as well as rotator cuff irritation and inflammation. It also allows for a stronger pressing movement. Dr. Ken was a big advocate of this variation, and I would agree. He also would sometimes recommend the use of the trap bar/shrug bar for overhead pressing. Another good pressing variation was high (70 or <) incline pressing with palms parallel grip, which Bill Starr used to recommend in his writings, as well as Dr. Ken.
All the seemingly conflicting advice we’re seeing in this thread underscores the caveat of considering the source. At the end of the day, anatomy and joint mechanics don’t lie, these sciences are pretty exacting and give a good foundation for performance and rehab/prevention. Me personally I tend to like the coaches/clinicians that don’t overanalyze (too much of a good thing IMO) and err on the conservative side. I’m a clinician myself, and to take a page out of physical therapy modalities, there are many times that a movement that has long given someone trouble can be made safe and productive by improving movement and biomechanics. For example with pressing, improving things like thoracic mobility, degree of external rotation, and strengthening stabilizers and synergists. A lot of this can be done with implements like foam rollers and banded distractions. Applying them in a regimented fashion can go a long way.
There are people who have certain anatomical characteristics or variants that prohibit certain exercises, as I’m pretty sure everyone here knows, and finding more suitable exercises that have similar function and work the same muscle groups is the order there. As to the point of being careful with advices, there are plenty of gonzo coaches/athletes as well as bro science in the iron sports, and it is these I would say to avoid. People take the advice of icons like Vince Gironda (the original Bro Scientist) or Louie Simmons, and point to the scores of people they trained, however using dubious movements or techniques based on people that are usually outliers is risky. And the reality of it is that there have been many witnessed over the years that have been wrecked by these popular gonzo exercises.
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it’s about Muscle and Joint Physiology, biomechanics and Physics of muscle contraction.
it’s not about what and how im like it
First of all, it’s about what you said regarding primal life. Second of all, you keep saying “biomechanics” without realizing that what you keep throwing in is someone’s interpretation and opinion based on biomechanics. There are plenty of other people who interpret biomechanics as being supportive of overhead movement.
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The shoulder is one of the most mobile parts of your body. But You being a swimmer don’t need me to tell you that. I think you’re spot and I like your approach with really fearing no movement. I have pretty much the same mindset
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