you are funny 
John Meadow’s talks about the Pec Minor Dip quite a bit. He also calls these reverse shrugs.
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[quote=“flappinit, post:17, topic:274174”]
…you should know that internally rotating and raising the shoulders at the same time is the best way to get shoulder impingement.[/quote]
Good thing that’s not happening!
Now THAT’S quite impressive!!!
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You’re missing a key point, having to do with the position of the hands. So please don’t start guffawing, until you actually know WTF you’re talking about!
Explain to me how that’s not happening. The chest can only be properly contracted when the shoulder blades are protracted. Then, you’re shrugging your shoulders. So either you’re getting impingement or, if your shoulderblades are retracted, you’re not doing anything that could target the chest.
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" The shoulder shrug, which is an upper trap contraction, upwardly rotates the scapula, pulling the acromion away from the humeral head and preserving the subacromial space. So, not only is it impossible for an upper trapezius contraction to cause subacromial impingement , but avoiding such movement may lead to the very thing that people are so afraid of when pressing overhead." — Progressive Rehab & Strength.com
The internal rotation may there, but it’s minimal compared to incline or overhead flyes and presses (5 degrees vs a possible >90 degrees). I don’t see how impingement would ever occur while the entire length of the arms are pointed downward.
Specifically because of the close grip. That’s why the internal rotation has to occur. Regular shrugs are fine, because the lack of protraction targets the traps. Targeting the upper chest with a close grip means there’s internal rotation.
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Guys,
A great field for discussion. Don’t want to be a wiseguy here - but haven’t you considered the difference in anatomy between individuals (phenotype)
For example: Years ago, I used to have a training partner whose shoulders just died from touching the bar during military presses. We discovered that he, for some reason, didn’t have a full range of movement behind the head (he absolutely killed in other shoulder excercises though). Me, I perceived without any problem and still do them regularly. Same aspects can be applied to almost any excercise.
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Just because something doesn’t hurt, doesn’t mean it’s not mechanically disadvantageous. There are a lot of exercises that are person-dependent, and there are, as has been discussed before with close-grip upright rows, a select few exercises that replicate the exact model for shoulder impingement.
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Question: Which shoulder excercises do not provoke impingement?
I would guesstimate that every excercise above the shoulder plane is provocative, but you still use the rotator-cuff in any move.
A more interesting (positive) question is which individuals have spare room below the acromion? What are the signs to look for?
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I’m not of the opinion that overhead work is bad for the shoulders. In some people it can be, but for the most part, as long as the scaps are elevated properly it’s fine. Anyone pinning their scaps down for presses is eliminating the acromial space. Exercises that combine internal rotation and elevation of the shoulders are what provoke impingement no matter what you do. Some may not hurt from doing them, though.
After 31 years of steady training and now 49 years old, I can say shoulders are one area on my body that feel 100%. I’m not sure if it means anything, but for many years I did not directly train my shoulders (just relying on chest and back moves). For the last 6-7 years, I started doing lateral raises and they did bring out my side delts a bit more. I recently started doing db rotator cuff exercises just because it is recommended. The shoulder press is an exercise I have rarely done, except for here or there for a workout or two. To me, it didn’t seem to add value to what I was already doing. Bill DeSimone does not recommend shoulder presses if I recall (one guy I trust on these matters).
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[quote=“flappinit, post:28, topic:274174”]
Explain to me how that’s not happening. The chest can only be properly contracted when the shoulder blades are protracted.[/quote]
Until you actually try it, instead of theoretically poking holes in the idea, you’re not speaking from an informed position. Until you illustrate exactly how this must occur during a shrug without fully retracted shoulder blades, I’ll keep doing what I know to be true for me.
I guess all those powerlifters who thrust their chest out and try to grab the bench with their shoulder blades are doing it wrong?
Those dudes are trying to move the maximum amount of weight with the shortest ROM. What they do is not healthy.
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This has been beaten dead, and it’s really not up for debate. Retract your left shoulder blade, hard. Then, flex your chest on that side as hard as you can. Reach across with your right hand and feel your left pec. Now, protract your left shoulder blade, and flex your left pec, and reach across with your right hand and feel THAT. Boom - chest is flexed.
Also - just go look up the function of the pectoralis major on any physiology website. It internally rotates the shoulders.
They’re shortening their ROM and using predominantly triceps and shoulders to lift the weight.
It doesn’t HAVE to occur during a shrug - you can retract your shoulderblades and shrug, with a close grip. But you said you were hitting the upper chest, and that cannot occur properly with retracted shoulderblades. As I said - this isn’t a debate, all you have to do is what I said - retract shoulderblade, flex chest, feel with opposite arm. Protract shoulderblade, flex chest, feel with opposite arm.
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By the way - just watch ol’ Dorian here. Look at that AWESOME scapular protraction. Especially at 8:25 in the vid.
So, as I’ve said - it’s one of two things. You’re either retracting your shoulderblades, thus not properly hitting your chest, or you’re protracting your shoulderblades, thus impinging your shoulders, and either way, your exercise is not the most efficient upper chest exercise, nor is it safer than the decline guillotine.
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Or NOT retract and the upper pec flexes, while the lower portions stays slack. The impingement part of your argument was the main thing not tracking. I’ve had impingement problems in the right RC for 25+ yrs. They are not irritated by this exercise. I’m glad you have so much time on your hands to read all these things, but all the textbook stuff in the world doesn’t track when experiences show otherwise.