Natural Reduction In T Inevitable?

Training Over 35 Lifter
1

Dr Powerclean recently recited the 2% loss of T from age 30 onwards figure. I’ve read that 2% figure before. Is it an estimate based on a large study, perhaps an average based on data?

I’d posted the Q in a thread but would like to open it out to the forum.

I don’t see an overriding physiological reason for men to produce less T only possible ‘wear’ and thus less efficiency in the endocrine system and testes.

Another thing that is interesting is hormonal homeostasis. If for a 25 year old that results in, say arbitrarily, 1000 units of T then why is the same system ‘settling’ for a few hundred 25 years later? Or is it infact trying to keep up but thanks to ineficiencies in the body it just can’t. Getting to really understand the keys to this could be the route to healthy homone levels.

I have read, i’m sure you have too, that some 70 year old men have the T levels of a 20 year old, what i’ve never seen is anything about the same man maintaining his youthful T levels.

An example link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/mens_health/issues_menopause.shtml

Any pointers on this would be interesting.

Also note depressing study:
http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/newscience/reproduction/2006/2006-1210travisonetal.html

So is it inevitable really? If not do we need to hole up against all possible toxins and T reducers?

In a man in prime health there should be no ‘inevitable’ reason for reduced T, unless there really is some programmed unavoidable ageing process wherein even the fittest, undamaged, stress free man simply loses T anyway, despite there being no outward reason, except i suppose the baseline wear and tear of just being alive. Maybe that’s it. Is that connected to the increase in shbg that appears to be related to lower levels of free T?

It all seems depressing whatever it is. Accepting T loss as ‘natural’ would be like not bothering with opticians because eyesight degradation is ‘natural’. So from a ‘philosophical’ and practical point of view i’m all for pushing back against ‘nature’ in this case.

What would be the tips for minimising ‘natural’ loss? I would hazard a guess at the following list

  • exercise regularly and make it reasonably strenuous
  • regular sex
  • enough quality sleep
  • avoid excess trans-fats, toxins in food as much as practically possible
  • don’t live in polluted cities / areas if possible
  • find [healthy] ways of dealing with external stressors (e.g. workplaces, money, family etc)
  • supplement vits/minerals to avoid possible deficits

I dont really think that ‘T boosting’ maybe/kinda/oughta pills are really a big part of this yet as every study pro one kind of supplement is countered by another study suggesting there is no effect, and as stated above what is really need is for the body’s own regulatory system to determin a useful level of T.

Lots of questions in there, sorry if it’s meandering - i appreciate any answers and thoughts

2

There are several studies I have seen referenced. The Massachusetts Male Aging Study is a longitudinal (long term) study involving 1500 men over two decades. A more recent article published in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology, “Senior Citizens Have Lower Testosterone Levels than Peers Fifteen Years Ago” combines new data plus the MMAS study.

There really are two crucial issues here, one is the gradual decline in T as we age, the other is the fact that overall T levels have decreased from our father's generation.

Besides all of the hard to quantify effects of both internal and external stressors to our HPTA axis, the one “smoking gun” that hurts our bioavailable free T is the unexplained gradual rise in SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin). I’m sure time will yield even more answers, and somebody should write a book “How to Protect and Preserve Your Testosterone Levels Throughout Life”. And I wish that book had been out twenty years ago when I needed it. Doc

3

[quote]Dr.PowerClean wrote:
There are several studies I have seen referenced. The Massachusetts Male Aging Study is a longitudinal (long term) study involving 1500 men over two decades. A more recent article published in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology, “Senior Citizens Have Lower Testosterone Levels than Peers Fifteen Years Ago” combines new data plus the MMAS study.
There really are two crucial issues here, one is the gradual decline in T as we age, the other is the fact that overall T levels have decreased from our father’s generation.
Besides all of the hard to quantify effects of both internal and external stressors to our HPTA axis, the one “smoking gun” that hurts our bioavailable free T is the unexplained gradual rise in SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin). I’m sure time will yield even more answers, and somebody should write a book “How to Protect and Preserve Your Testosterone Levels Throughout Life”. And I wish that book had been out twenty years ago when I needed it. Doc[/quote]

It’s worth noting that over that time period people got fatter too (in the USA especially) but i don’t know if that was included in the analysis. I understand excessive fat leads to poor T levels (or is it just raised shbg, estradiol). It may be a factor, the other would be diet as food has continuously moved away from fairly basic ‘as they come’ foods to more and more processed foods over the last few decades. Another factor is an increase in sedentary lifestyles over the last few decades. That’s something i would hypothesise, but it needs real research to demonstrate.

The positive is that you can electively avoid those three situations, the problem of toxins and so forth are more difficult to avoid in the environment, though possible to reduce.

Also i’ve read occasional articles about environmental estrogens but i’m not sure a) where they are and b) what actual effect they have on males. Mostly it’s been about unfortunate effects on fresh water fish etc.

“How to Protect and Preserve Your Testosterone Levels Throughout Life” Would be at the top of my buy list as there seems to be no consensus on this. The list i wrote in the first post were my guesses based on some reading but i don’t know whether they are true or what relative importance they have and so on.

Is it possible to suppress SHBG, should that be attempted and what would be the effects (i.e. would HPTA simply up it again).

The main puzzle for me is why the HPTA settles for less T when ageing, is it settling or is the system itself that is failing.

4

There is so much to learn. I did some more research, and I even found a study in the Clinical Endocrinology journal (Volume 62, issue 4, pg 498, april 2005) which stated “In contrast to general belief, increasing SHBG is not associated with decreased free T levels in adult men.”
Shit. That’s only one study, others contradict it, but we are obviously still in the pioneer stages of understanding T throughout our lifetime.
However, our knowledge base of environmental toxins which negatively impact our T is gradually growing. My second OP in T nation was about OUST, an air freshener which was one of several found to decrease T. Many T nation posters bemoaned the long list of phytoestrogens which we seem to be bombarded with.
I hope this thread gets some traction and others join in. Knowledge is our best defense against this vexing problem. Doc

6

I know that people are supposed to lose 1 lb muscle and gain 2 1/2 lbs of fat each year. However that can be reversed with exercise. I’d be interested in knowing if anyone has studied T-level changes in men who have controlled their fat and muscle gain and loss.

7

I do think it’s inevitable. Proper training and diet can keep T as high as possible through the lifetime even without hormone replacement. But it seems to me that some reduction in testosterone is just a natural part of aging. Aging [and dying] are inevitable.

8

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
I do think it’s inevitable. Proper training and diet can keep T as high as possible through the lifetime even without hormone replacement. But it seems to me that some reduction in testosterone is just a natural part of aging. Aging [and dying] are inevitable.[/quote]

Yup, that’s true. But like Ponce De Leon we will continue to look for that fountain of youth.

D

9

I guess we all think it’s inevitable but i’d challenge that and ask why - is it simply wear and tear, some programmed change over time, or is it a consequence of factors we can influence.

Or all of the above!

Dr Powerclean’s referenced article from the Clinical Endocrinology journal is typical of those studies that seem to contradict each other. If, in this case, SHBG isnt a major cause in ageing men then what? We’d see lowered overall T levels.

I’d also be interested in why an air freshener can lower T, what the active factor is and where else we can find (and avoid) them!

Like stuward i would love to see a study of active men who havent allowed their body composition change significantly since youth and their T levels. Best bet i suppose is to study 20 year old athletes and older athletes, though generally that would only be late 30’s

There’s another thing, most athletes cease to be at peak ability in their late 30’s. T may be involved there, though i suspect cumulative injuries, mental focus/priorities and even gradually worsening eyesight etc may be just as, or more, important there.

So many answers we want!

10

It’s funny that you should post this because I’ve been asking myself the same question lately and wondering. Over at Clarence Bass’s site he has written a little something noting that his T-level has declined a little since he was 50 and he is 70 now. But he doens’t know what his levels were when he was a young man. He is a big believer in exercise and keeping body fat levels incredibly low. His site is at cbass.com. The man is practically a one man aging study documented for the last 30 years

11

[quote]gswork wrote:
I guess we all think it’s inevitable but i’d challenge that and ask why - is it simply wear and tear, some programmed change over time, or is it a consequence of factors we can influence.

Or all of the above![/quote]

I vote for all of the above. It also depends on how you choose to look at it. Current research in DNA transcription suggests that aging probably involves both gene activation and repression and so you could look at it as a “programmed change” that involves many processes. As we age, plaque tends to build up, vascular walls harden, and many factors combine that cause systems to work less well than they do when we’re young. Despite these being programmed changes, there are things we can do alleviate, for example, the atherosclerotic process (like making sure we have good levels of vitamin E in our diet).

Google is your friend. “Also found in air fresheners are phthalates…Lab animal studies show that some phthalates interfere with hormonal systems, disrupt testosterone production and cause malformation of sex organs. Some studies of humans have shown a link between exposure and adverse changes in the genitals of baby boys.”

The current state of men’s health issues doesn’t make me hopeful that any useful information is likely to surface any time soon, so I always come back to the pragmatics of it all. We’re trying to deal with a situation where we have to make life changing decisions (literally) with imperfect, conflicting and down right confusing information. The answer is that you do the best you can. Some chose to simply “let nature take its course.” Anyone who has read many of my posts knows that my position is the opposite of that, but we each have to find our own way.

My philosophy 101 professor summed it up quite well, I think: “There are only two questions in philosophy… What the hell is going on here?.. and… How should I live my life?” Those are the questions we have to answer for ourselves in all aspects of life, including the hormone arena.

12

[quote]happydog48 wrote:

My philosophy 101 professor summed it up quite well, I think: “There are only two questions in philosophy… What the hell is going on here?.. and… How should I live my life?” Those are the questions we have to answer for ourselves in all aspects of life, including the hormone arena.

[/quote]
You’re philosophy teacher was a lot better than mine. That two question philosophy was better than all the Kant, Hegel, Descartes, Sartre, and Plato I learned combined. Doc

13

[quote]happydog48 wrote:
My philosophy 101 professor summed it up quite well, I think: “There are only two questions in philosophy… What the hell is going on here?.. and… How should I live my life?” Those are the questions we have to answer for ourselves in all aspects of life, including the hormone arena.

[/quote]

The third question is “WHY is it going on?” Obviously your philosophy prof wasn’t much into the ontology of Heidegger (“Why is there something rather than nothing?”) :slight_smile:

Lowered T, I guess, is nature’s way of killing us off
or turning us into permanent baby-sitters (for the children of our progeny)…Why couldn’t nature choose something kinder, like striking us dead with lightning? :slight_smile:

14

[quote]entheogens wrote:
Lowered T, I guess, is nature’s way of killing us off
or turning us into permanent baby-sitters (for the children of our progeny)…Why couldn’t nature choose something kinder, like striking us dead with lightning? :slight_smile:
[/quote]

I do think women get it worse - a couple of years of sudden changes and the the hormone tap is switched off. I’d sooner take a gradual decline.

Still, an old man with high T would probably be better at fending off any threats to the kids he’s been charged with!

With all the food as nature intended it i wonder if ancient man had more T. In fact there is a study - T levels in so called ‘primitive’ men.

15

Wouldn’t it be true that “ancient man” would have been long dead before modern man’s T declines?
We have a much longer life span now and this is unchartered territory.

16

Not necessarily, unless you are counting men aged 80+

Those statistics showing low average lifespans are low because of the huge number of infact deaths.

I would hazard a guess that a healthy man in a primitive setting could expect a lifespan into his 60’s and indeed 70’s. There are plenty of old folk in ‘primitive tribes’, though less as a proportion than in western society no doubt.

A lot of what happens to people in their very old age is as you say unchartered territory, especially as far as T is concerned i would imagine.

The main concerns on this forum seem to be in the 40-60 age range but actually, why not also consider it for 60+

17

Similarly to clarence Bass, Art De Vany is either a total exception to the rule or an inspiration or both. His total test is 600 @ 70 years old. Genetic freak or the result of lifelong healthy testosterone-elevating habits? Both?

He claims he’s entirely “natural,” and is pretty staunchly against hrt because, in his view, it is ultimately emasculating…

His latest blog entry is about a NEJM study regarding testosterone treatment. The results don’t seem very promising, but perhaps the results were skewed by a faulty hrt protocol?

http://www.arthurdevany.com/

18

Actually, this is just more evidence that supports what we already know - testosterone alone is not a good protocol.

As for the application of this towards HRT, I don’t any connection except the above. Guys with functioning HPTA don’t need HRT. By definition, if you’re a candidate for HRT, then you’re already “emasculated” by low T and high E.

I’m happy for the guy whose T is 600 @ 70 years old, but what good is that to me? If he can tell me right now today how to get my T to 600 “naturally” then I’m all ears.

edit: I just remembered a relevant quote by Dan Duchane, “No doctor has ever produced a winning bodybuilder.”

19

[quote]happydog48 wrote:
I’m happy for the guy whose T is 600 @ 70 years old, but what good is that to me?
[/quote]

Only that perhaps it’s possible - in keeping with this thread - for someone to maintain healthy T levels throughout life? If true, it’s not only good news but downright inspirational.

I’m not going to speak for him of course - he has loads of opinions on this as you might expect - but it may well be more about lifelong habits than anything else. i.e., do we end up with low T in the first place because of age or dietary/exercise habits? etc…

About the NEJM study - I agree the protocol seems rather doomed to fail. Just threw it out for discussion in this context.

Cheers to you. ~katz

20

Ok, so how was that 70 year old’s Estradiol?