Pardon me once again for non-stop repeating myself. Will every man that cares about his quality of life today, tomorrow, and until the “end” please get a complete hormone panel run?
When the time comes you don’t feel “yourself” anymore, if you have a printout out of what your T levels used to be, instead of being told you’re “normal”, you can persuade your doctor to put you back to YOUR normal, not a useless chart average that probably doesn’t apply to you anyway. End of rant.
KNB
KNB, I don’t know which fired you up…if it was the DeVany link or the ongoing tendency of many guys to forget the obvious-you need to know YOUR baseline before any meaninful discussion can begin.
The DeVany link irritated me in many ways. Some of his comments were just from outer space: “I don’t do bench presses because I don’t like how they make my chest look.” Shit, if I don’t bench, I look like I have man-boobs. And yeah my rotators hurt, deal with it. And the emasculating comments.
The imperfect science of HRT will improve over time. And I don’t see any “cures” for the majority of causes of primary or secondary testicular failure in the near future. Maybe stem cells injected straight into the testicles or testicular transplants (?!), but that wouldnt even help the secondary folks with pituitary origin.
Yeah, we should continue to identify every factor that can lower our T, and anything that might stimulate our body’s natural production of it. But for many of us, the impact of successfully doing these things has missed its window of opportunity. The ONLY option is HRT. Doc
Blood pressure and cholesterol levels increasing with age are normal as well. Why treat these and not treat lowering Testosterone levels? Deceasing Testosterone can, eventually, have both serious and annoying side effects. I’ve been on HRT for seven years. My “free testosterone” was tested at 4.5. Mentally and physically I feel like I did twenty years ago. I will say this:
Since my Testosterone levels will remain the same I wonder what my level of quality of life will be versus what it normally would have been when I reach 75 years old? I’ll be 57 years old next month (1/08).
For what it’s worth I am only using the standard Testosterone Cypionate levels as prescribed by my doctor. No abuse. I’m also using REZ-V in an attempt to reduce the Testosterone to Estrogen conversion.
I only posted the DeVany link because he seems like a good example of someone who has done quite well without HRT. And (as Doc says) that it’s important to learn everything we can about natural factors encouraging/inhibiting T.
Anyway, surely no one else thinks his example makes HRT obsolete or anything.
ummm…didn’t mean to annoy anyone.
[quote]bigdawg011 wrote:
Ok, so how was that 70 year old’s Estradiol?[/quote]
I don’t know anything about his full hormonal profile. He did mention that his free T is very low - but he also claims that it is notoriously difficult to measure free t; and, furthermore, the importance of free T in the scheme of things is controversial, etc…blah,. blah…
[quote]Dr.PowerClean wrote:
KNB, I don’t know which fired you up…if it was the DeVany link or the ongoing tendency of many guys to forget the obvious-you need to know YOUR baseline before any meaninful discussion can begin.
The DeVany link irritated me in many ways. Some of his comments were just from outer space: “I don’t do bench presses because I don’t like how they make my chest look.” Shit, if I don’t bench, I look like I have man-boobs. And yeah my rotators hurt, deal with it. And the emasculating comments.
The imperfect science of HRT will improve over time. And I don’t see any “cures” for the majority of causes of primary or secondary testicular failure in the near future. Maybe stem cells injected straight into the testicles or testicular transplants (?!), but that wouldnt even help the secondary folks with pituitary origin.
Yeah, we should continue to identify every factor that can lower our T, and anything that might stimulate our body’s natural production of it. But for many of us, the impact of successfully doing these things has missed its window of opportunity. The ONLY option is HRT. Doc
[/quote]
Thanks Doc,
It was the tendency to ignore the obvious…
If it wasn’t for HRT started by a GREAT lady doctor, I’d still be crying at t.v. commercials, sobbing at the “movie of the week”, and not actively chasing women. Not to mention I would probably still weigh 205 @5’8", and be a classic lard ass too. As I said said before, I got really lucky with both of my doctors as they both believe if the range is 250-1100, “I” can legally keep you at around 1000 and your life will be better, and mine hassle free. They both believe in Adex, and the current one HCG too.
Look, I know I’ve said all this before but I REALLY want the rest of the guys here to take note: No matter what, get your blood work done before age 40 if possible, if not as soon as possible because if you don’t have records of T higher than 400, YOUR doctor may be conservative and only allow you 400, 500 if you’re lucky. A vast majority of us will need HRT/TRT at some point to “age gracefully” as I say. Why not be pushing 60 and still chasing skirts, instead of that yappy assed toy poodle you got for a companion? I’ll stop now.
EDIT: I just read the DeVany post and I am confused. Since when is there any argument about the extreme importance of Free T, versus any other kind? Doc, any input?
KNB, there is no question free T is critical in evaluating male hypogonadism, and is more sensitive in diagnosing borderline cases in which the total T is above the bottom of range.
I have myself wondered why there is still a heavy reliance on total T numbers as opposed to free T in both docs and T-Nation folks as well. I had heard some opinions that the free T assay was less reliable. I googled this, and indeed there is some truth to this. The total T is an immunoassay, a standard test, and the free T is dialyzed, making it a test more prone to inaccuracy. How much, I don’t really know. Also, apparently there are some online “kits” for free T which take some short cuts which produce very unreliable numbers.
Any biochemists out there, feel free to further clariry. But these above issues should absolutely not detract from the need for BOTH tests to accurately gauge the status of one’s hormones. Doc
Dr.PowerClean,
My primary care physician and endocrinologist separately had me tested for both total and free testostorone. The total was on the low side of normal and the free was well below normal. If they had made their decision on total testosterone only I’d still be living with the miserable symptoms of hypogonadism. I work in the field of electronics and will perform different types tests to confirm and locate a problem.
I think that natural test reduction is inevitable; but the extreme reduction that we are seeing can be attributed to lifestyle choices.
I come from a rural town in South America and moved later to Japan. Where I come from men aren’t expected to worry about cholesterol content of eggs, taking the fat out of meat or running for miles upon miles every day. Men stay healthy through horseback riding, working on the farm and just regular chores. Heart attacks happen, but are rare in the young. Life expectancy is just shy of 70 years old. People at that age do most of their own things.
I have lived in Japan little over 5 years. Here everything is low fat, low calories, 0 cholesterol. The people are noticeable shorter, men have no facial hair and at the gym there is an evident lack of strenght. They eat only fish, no skin, rice and lots of vegetables. They run every single morning and you have to schedule appointments with the cardio machines 1 day in advance. A simple flu is considered a serious issue and can pass as an epidemic. Some live to be over 90years old, but the quality of life in those persons is questionable at best. Others kill themselves out of pure boredom. So far I have witnessed 5 suicides this year alone in my university. All below 25 years old. I won’t mention the ones from past year or the girls that have been admitted at our hospital from bulimia or eating disorders.
America is a grab bag. Some people live long with healthy lives, some die young from disease or crime. Others get strange diseases while others live their own lives without any mayor pain or illness. However people are in constant stress, sleep is a secondary issue and food is on the go. No time to eat in peace and enjoy meals with the family.
After living in 3 continents in my life I have reached the conclusion that declining T levels is simpler than we want to accept, but because of social notions we are reluctant to accept it. How you sleep, What you eat, and how you exercise have far more bearing on our life’s than we want to admit.
Sure it isnt just about T levels. If anything the devany link shows that being active, sleeping well and eating mostly protein and nutrient rich fruit and vegetables from clean relatively unprocessed sources is the key.
I wonder if those on TRT, having exercised and changed her lifestyles would actually find their natural T levels to have become higher than before treatment should they stop treatment, i.e. the lifestyle factors are fundamental natural levels.
[quote]gswork wrote:
Sure it isnt just about T levels. If anything the devany link shows that being active, sleeping well and eating mostly protein and nutrient rich fruit and vegetables from clean relatively unprocessed sources is the key.
I wonder if those on TRT, having exercised and changed her lifestyles would actually find their natural T levels to have become higher than before treatment should they stop treatment, i.e. the lifestyle factors are fundamental natural levels.[/quote]
For me, having changed my lifestyle and began exercising again, (only due to TRT) I could have maybe HAD higher potential T levels. But since starting on HRT/TRT, of course I have gone into shutdown. My real point is, I doubt I ever had T levels of 1000, and my E was probably never this low either, and I’m not gonna volunteer to give up my shots. Period. Life is good, and women are still GREAT!
KNB