EDIT:
The real question: will this protocol leave me looking “good enough to hook up”?
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
London Runner wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
I understand your concern. But to me 200$ a month isn’t excessive if it gets the job done. And the protocol is basically all the supplements that I currently use.
Seriously though. Do you pay for your Biotest Supplements, or do you get them for free??
LR
I pay for them by answering questions for 5-6 hours each day.[/quote]
Fair enough. It wasn’t a swipe at you, I just wanted to know. I know that you put in more work around here then almost anyone else.
LR
so what would be the effect of just having, say, 100g of fast digesting carbs pre-workout from another source? For instance if I had 3.5-4 cups of some sugary cereal with whey protein shake as my “milk” wouldn’t I get a similar effect? Or would it at least be a positive thing to do compared to just protein pre workout?
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
CrewPierce wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
I understand your concern. But to me 200$ a month isn’t excessive if it gets the job done. And the protocol is basically all the supplements that I currently use.
Gotcha, that’s fair enough. I was trying to fit this in with your Amino Acid Pulsing method and there was no way I could swing buying enough SURGE Recovery for both of these methods.
You know, getting married has been a drag on my budget but I’m sure you feel my pain on that 
Oh yeah, I feel your pain man!!!
‘Technically’ any fast protein can be used for the daily pulses. Whey has been shown to be fast enough to lead to hyperaminoacidemia.
So a poor (or married) man version could be:
UPON WAKING UP
PULSE no.1 Grow! Whey 1 scoop
20 minutes later
Breakfast
MID-AM
PULSE no.2 Grow! Whey 1 scoop
Lunch
Relatiely easily absorbed protein source (the leaner, the faster)
The rest of the meal depends on your goal
PARA-WORKOUT
40 min before = 1 FINiBAR
30 min before = 2 scoops WORKOUT FUEL
10 min before = 1 scoop RECOVERY
During = 1 scoop RECOVERY
60 minutes after workout
Either Grow! Whey (if fat loss is your main goal) or RECOVERY (if mass/strength is your main goal)
30 minutes later
SUPPER
Slowly absorbed protein source like red meat
low or no carbs
Veggies
Fish oil
Nuts or almonds
BEFORE BED
Slowly absorbed protein like cottage cheese blended in with yogurt or low-carbs Metabolic Drive[/quote]
Thank you so much Thibs! This is so helpful!
I was wondering what the fat content would look like on such a day (for the solid meals).
Thanks you!
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
so what would be the effect of just having, say, 100g of fast digesting carbs pre-workout from another source? For instance if I had 3.5-4 cups of some sugary cereal with whey protein shake as my “milk” wouldn’t I get a similar effect? Or would it at least be a positive thing to do compared to just protein pre workout?[/quote]
I think anything would be better than just protein before the workout, but the beauty of this protocol is in the specific blends of carbohydrates, especially the palatinose and rice oligodextrin in the Workout Fuel and FINIBARs. You can’t get that from a sugary cereal.
From Thibs on the first page:
[quote]Tim and I then tried to come up with the best mix of carbs, taken at the right time to avoid overloading the body or causing reactive hypoglycemia. The FINiBARS are great for that purpose because rice oligodextrin and palatinose are:
- slowly absorbed yet do not cause stomach distress or bloating
- when used in the proper ratio they act as an osmotic element, pulling water into the muscles
So the bars are used to initiate the carb loading protocol gradually without causing discomfort, then we switch to WORKOUT FUEL which also contains the same two carbs, but also some D-glucose which will create more of an insulin release.[/quote]
-Nate
[quote]Nate Green wrote:
pumped340 wrote:
so what would be the effect of just having, say, 100g of fast digesting carbs pre-workout from another source? For instance if I had 3.5-4 cups of some sugary cereal with whey protein shake as my “milk” wouldn’t I get a similar effect? Or would it at least be a positive thing to do compared to just protein pre workout?
I think anything would be better than just protein before the workout, but the beauty of this protocol is in the specific blends of carbohydrates, especially the palatinose and rice oligodextrin in the Workout Fuel and FINIBARs. You can’t get that from a sugary cereal.
-Nate[/quote]
I understand it wouldn’t be optimal but lets just say someone prone to gaining fat easily was interested in gaining muscle without a lot of fat. Would he see some positive benefits without much negatives (although obviously not as many positives as with this protocol) if he were to consume say 100g of carbs from cereal pre workout and only another 40-50 post workout?
How come I feel Spike tabs better than the Spike drink? Btw, the tabs are so freakin’ damn great! It’s all I need, that & food before a workout.
Hey Nate.
What are you doing post workout?
I’m not going to lie, this protocol does sound very interesting to me, and I’d love to try it when I start my mass gain later this year.
But is it worth doing without the Anaconda? I know Thibs has said that WH is an acceptable 2nd substitute if you can’t get CH, but what about all of the other ingredients in Anaconda?
LR
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Nate Green wrote:
pumped340 wrote:
so what would be the effect of just having, say, 100g of fast digesting carbs pre-workout from another source? For instance if I had 3.5-4 cups of some sugary cereal with whey protein shake as my “milk” wouldn’t I get a similar effect? Or would it at least be a positive thing to do compared to just protein pre workout?
I think anything would be better than just protein before the workout, but the beauty of this protocol is in the specific blends of carbohydrates, especially the palatinose and rice oligodextrin in the Workout Fuel and FINIBARs. You can’t get that from a sugary cereal.
-Nate
I understand it wouldn’t be optimal but lets just say someone prone to gaining fat easily was interested in gaining muscle without a lot of fat. Would he see some positive benefits without much negatives (although obviously not as many positives as with this protocol) if he were to consume say 100g of carbs from cereal pre workout and only another 40-50 post workout?[/quote]
I was talking with Lonnie Lowery the other day and he said when he was a young bodybuilder he used to drink a bottle of that psuedo-juice, Sunny Delight, before every training session. He understood the concept of peri-workout nutrition and tried to get by, but in his words, it “wasn’t the best idea.”
So, sure, eating some sugary cereal beforehand would cause an insulin boost. But it’d be from sub-par ingredients with a lot of filler, and I’m pretty certain you wouldn’t get the results you wanted.
I did the math the other day, and if you were to follow the exact protocol of FINIBARs, Surge Workout Fuel, and Surge Recovery, (buying two each) it’d be less than 11 dollars per training session (if you trained 5 days per week) to take full advantage of the powerful insulin surge and allow your muscles to grow at an alarmingly-fast rate.
And if you were to just buy one of everything and save this protocol for your “main days” where you’re really trying add some muscle to a specific part of your body, it’d cost you around 5 bucks per training session to ensure your muscles are getting exactly what they need.
Most people spend that money on movies they’ve already seen, cheap beer, or a couple of tacos.
I’d rather spend it on something I’m incredibly passionate about - my body.
(Which is not to say I don’t enjoy tacos, beer, or movies…)
-Nate
[quote]BlakedaMan wrote:
Hey Nate.
What are you doing post workout?
[/quote]
I’m consuming two servings of Anaconda during my training session and then after about an hour I consume another serving.
About 45 minutes after that, I eat a meal consisting of mostly protein, a little bit of carbs, and fat.
-Nate
[quote]Nate Green wrote:
I did the math the other day, and if you were to follow the exact protocol of FINIBARs, Surge Workout Fuel, and Surge Recovery, (buying two each) it’d be less than 11 dollars per training session (if you trained 5 days per week) to take full advantage of the powerful insulin surge and allow your muscles to grow at an alarmingly-fast rate.
And if you were to just buy one of everything and save this protocol for your “main days” where you’re really trying add some muscle to a specific part of your body, it’d cost you around 5 bucks per training session to ensure your muscles are getting exactly what they need.
Most people spend that money on movies they’ve already seen, cheap beer, or a couple of tacos.
I’d rather spend it on something I’m incredibly passionate about - my body.
(Which is not to say I don’t enjoy tacos, beer, or movies…)
-Nate
[/quote]
lol sorry but I’m 18 and definitely not about to start spending $44 a week on peri-workout nutrition. Again I’m sure the results are probably good but I just don’t see it as practical for most people. I’ll stick with the cereal and fruit PWO for now lol.
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Nate Green wrote:
I did the math the other day, and if you were to follow the exact protocol of FINIBARs, Surge Workout Fuel, and Surge Recovery, (buying two each) it’d be less than 11 dollars per training session (if you trained 5 days per week) to take full advantage of the powerful insulin surge and allow your muscles to grow at an alarmingly-fast rate.
And if you were to just buy one of everything and save this protocol for your “main days” where you’re really trying add some muscle to a specific part of your body, it’d cost you around 5 bucks per training session to ensure your muscles are getting exactly what they need.
Most people spend that money on movies they’ve already seen, cheap beer, or a couple of tacos.
I’d rather spend it on something I’m incredibly passionate about - my body.
(Which is not to say I don’t enjoy tacos, beer, or movies…)
-Nate
lol sorry but I’m 18 and definitely not about to start spending $44 a week on peri-workout nutrition. Again I’m sure the results are probably good but I just don’t see it as practical for most people. I’ll stick with the cereal and fruit PWO for now lol.[/quote]
That’s fine.
When I was 18 I was buying around $150 worth of supplements from Biotest every month. That was after I paid my half of the rent, my utilities, and car insurance, saved a little, paid for groceries, and allocated “going out” money. I had a part time job at a clothing store while trying to start my own personal training business and begin my writing career.
I guess it’s all about priorities.
-Nate
Hey fellas,
How important is the comsumption of the midwork products? As many before me have stated, this protocol, while extremely interesting, is also expensive. While I don’t want to ruin what you all have put together, it may be a bit more practical if i could trim off a serving or two where possible.
Workout - 60 = Alpha-GPC (2 caps) $0.45
W - 40 = 1 FINiBAR $2.50
W - 30 = 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel $3.32
W - 15 = 2 scoops Surge Recovery $1.50
During workout (early half) = 1 FINiBAR FiniBAR 1 $2.50
During workout (later half) = 1 scoop Surge Workout Fuel $1.66
Total: $11.93
Thanks!
Jim
I asked this yesterday in Thib’s para-WO thread, but haven’t gotten a response. Thought i might post it here to see if you have any thoughts Nate. Thanks.
A few questions regarding para-workout nutrition for me. First, I play college football and our summer program is set up as such: Mondays/Thursdays speed workout (30-45 min) followed by weights (60-90 min)
Tuesdays/Fridays weights (60-90 min) followed by conditioning (30 min)
Wednesdays Skills and Drills-on the field (fairly light workouts since I am a punter) (the first few sessions are GPP conditioning circuits lasting 30-60 min)
How would the para-workout protocol change on each day?
I do not really have access to my own supplements during to sip on Surge Recovery for example. We have access to Gatorade, water, Gatorade Nutrition Shakes (milk protein isolate based (20 g) with carbs (54 g) coming mostly from sucrose syrup and maltodextrin), and Muscle Milk Collegiate shakes (18 g milk protein isolate and 28 g carbs from maltodextrin). How would you recommend using any of these available (aka free) supps if at all or should I just stick to the Surge WF, Recovery, FINiBARs, etc para-workout?
Finally, I workout in the morning group at 630, and will wake around 530. Would this change your recommendations at all?
Thanks for all your advice on these topics. It has been fascinating to read and think about.
Jim,
I like how you broke down the protocol to a cost per workout basis. That’s pretty great information to have! In line with what you were asking I’m personally going to try using a bit less of each supplement but still keep the parameter of the protocol in order. As such, I’m looking at doing:
4:30 - 2 Alpha-GPC ($0.45)
4:50 - 1/2 Finibar ($1.25)
5:00 - 1 Scoop Surge Workout Fuel ($1.66)
5:15 - 1 Scoops Surge Recovery ($1.13) *note: 2 scoops of Surge costs $2.25 not $1.50)
During Workout (early half) - 1/2 Finibar ($1.25)
During Workout (later half) - 1 scoop Surge Workout Fuel ($1.66)
7:00 - 1 scoop Surge ($1.13)
8:30 - 2 scoops Grow! (1.71)
Total = $10.24
Although if I didn’t factor in the post workout portion the cost would be $7.40.
If I use this on my primary workouts (3 out of 4/week for Chest/Back, Legs, and Shoulders) that’s a cost of $30.72/wk and $122.88/mo. I think I can live with that. I think…
The fact that I have to factor in the cost of Flameout, Leucine, and Met Drive is going to push the monthly bill to about $212/mo and that’s steep.
If/when Anaconda comes out it’s going to be extremely difficult to incorporate that and still stay within a reasonable budget. If we follow the protocol exactly as described by Thibs w/o Anaconda the cost is $16.10 per workout…w/ Anaconda we could be looking at something near 20 bucks per workout. Yeesh!
This is why perhaps the company is hesitant to release it without getting costs down further. It’s not even out and people are bitching about the cost.
Look, if you’re broke, then obviously it’s going to cost too much anyways.
If you have some spare cash, well then it’s your decision on how you want to allocate it. Like Nate said many people waste money on stupid shit (even if fun stupid shit), like said comes down to priorities and if you feel it will give you bang for your buck.
[quote]ggarrett wrote:
If I use this on my primary workouts (3 out of 4/week for Chest/Back, Legs, and Shoulders) that’s a cost of $30.72/wk and $122.88/mo. I think I can live with that. I think…
The fact that I have to factor in the cost of Flameout, Leucine, and Metabolic Drive is going to push the monthly bill to about $212/mo and that’s steep.
[/quote]
To me, para-workout nutrition is THE key to greater gains. It is WAY more important than any other supplements you may take during the day. So if I were to cut somewhere, it would be the ‘other’ supplements. You mention that you can live with the cost of the para-workout protocol, great! Go with that.
To be clear, I’m in! I already put in my order for the Finibars and Grow! to go along with the Surge Recovery and WOF I already have. Philosopically, I completely agree with what Christian said in regards to the value of our obsession (and how much it’s worth to us to spend on that obsession). I sincerely wasn’t trying to bitch or complain.
But I think it’s at least beneficial to share on these forums the sort of perspective that highlights what the Biotest consumer has to think about. I’d like to believe (naive it may be) that it was this sort of sharing that helped lead to the price change in the Finibars.
Case in point, I think that based on Christian’s response I’ll probably try skipping the Leucine and Met Drive in order to afford Anaconda when it becomes available.
Also, as an aside I’d like to thank Tnation, Biotest, and especially Christian for making this new forum and taking all the time to provide us this awesome information for free. If we’re going to be fair in factoring the costs of this stuff, we’d be remiss to not account for the value we’re NOT being charged for Christian’s time and knowledge. Thank you so much!
Not to be a nay-sayer but this all seems odd to me. I’m SURE this will result in some increased gains just from such high carbs and calories PWO but is it really that important? I mean it’s being touted as this revolutionary thing that will work wonders but look how big people in the past have gotten just eating big. Of course PWO nutrition is important but plenty of really big guys got there by just eating the right foods and at most having some whey and simple sugars PWO without making things so complicated (or expensive )