My Thoughts on Carbs

Diet and Nutrition
21

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
This was a few months before I turned 19 and I was drinking 24 glasses of skim milk a day along with solid carbs at every meal, haha quite a bit of carbs in that diet. I can’t do it anymore though :'([/quote]
Do you think that’s because of the weight you’ve reached or age? Your only 22 or so if I recall so it’s hard to imagine a few years alone causing a seriously drastic change.

By the way you were also taking in very high fat during that time as well weren’t you? Pretty much high everything if I’m remembering correctly lol[/quote]

I’m 20 actually. Well I think my body was going to just use everything I fed it up until that point and use it to build muscle. But I think once you start to really push the body beyond where it wants to go you have to be a little more detailed with your approach. I think that’s the point I’m at now and why I can’t just eat whatever I want and stay lean.

22

I think one of the biggest mistakes people make when cutting (or trying to make lean gains) is keeping their calories exactly the same. People hear about substituting fats for carbs, but the most important thing is to keep your total calorie intake lower than normal.

If you are simply substituting carbs out and substituting fat right back in for it, your not going to see any difference if your calorie totals are the same.

As for me, I agree that when I am putting on lean muscle, medium carbs/medium to low fat/high protein is what works best.

In the end, testing out your body and finding out what works best for you is the most important part.

23

[quote]JonBlood wrote:
I’ve been consuming no carbs other than about 100g per day peri-workout nutrition and I’m making great gains with minimal fat gains. [/quote]

100g’s is above what is generally considered low-carb.

24

From a personal standpoint, I feel that for me going above the 60 to 70g mark in fat intake isn’t of much benefit and has done nothing more than slow down my fat loss. That’s the mistake I realised early on in my 13 week diet thus far and adjusted it accordingly. Right now I just eat 250 to 300g protein per day, 60 to 70g fats per day (majority from unsaturated sources) and the remainder of my calories I leave to carbohydrates (mostly high fibre carbs). Low carb days I consume 80 to 120g and on my high day I’ll typically eat 300 to 500g depending on how i feel throughout the day. 2 days low, 1 day high and the fat is coming off very well - far superior to when I was doing close to no carbs and 100 - 130g fats.

WestCoast7 is correct though. The calorie deficit is what matters most of all. As long as the overall effect is a deficit, you will lose. That’s just my .02 … take it how you see fit. Based on personal observations of myself, family and friends.

At the end of the day it will always come back to the classic, whatever works best for you.

25

[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
As for me, I agree that when I am putting on lean muscle, medium carbs/medium to low fat/high protein is what works best.

In the end, testing out your body and finding out what works best for you is the most important part.[/quote]

I think I remember talking to you about this before, have you tried higher fat/lower carbs and if so did you notice you gained more fat or something?

What do you generally keep carbs and fat at? If I remember correctly you didn’t have protein much more than 1g/lb

[quote]Teledin wrote:
From a personal standpoint, I feel that for me going above the 60 to 70g mark in fat intake isn’t of much benefit and has done nothing more than slow down my fat loss. That’s the mistake I realised early on in my 13 week diet thus far and adjusted it accordingly. Right now I just eat 250 to 300g protein per day, 60 to 70g fats per day (majority from unsaturated sources) and the remainder of my calories I leave to carbohydrates (mostly high fibre carbs). Low carb days I consume 80 to 120g and on my high day I’ll typically eat 300 to 500g depending on how i feel throughout the day. 2 days low, 1 day high and the fat is coming off very well - far superior to when I was doing close to no carbs and 100 - 130g fats.

[/quote]

That’s interesting, and pretty damn high carbs for a cut considering you have the high day every 3rd day. In general do you find you’re naturally lean or do you put fat on easily? Also, what do you do for when you’re looking to gain.

26

[quote]BlakedaMan wrote:
That was about 3 years ago, when I found TNATION and started getting into lifting more intelligently and eating better.[/quote]

5 years ago you silly boy!!! It’s 2010 not 2008, unless your join date is incorrect.

Anyway, it’s all about trail and error, we don’t all have identical genetic compatibilities in terms of nutrition.

27

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:
As for me, I agree that when I am putting on lean muscle, medium carbs/medium to low fat/high protein is what works best.

In the end, testing out your body and finding out what works best for you is the most important part.[/quote]

I think I remember talking to you about this before, have you tried higher fat/lower carbs and if so did you notice you gained more fat or something?

What do you generally keep carbs and fat at? If I remember correctly you didn’t have protein much more than 1g/lb[/quote]

Yes we did talk about this. I have tried high fat a lower carbs, and even higher fat and no carbs. I did seem to gain more fat (less lean gains) with these changes, and I also felt more sluggish in my workouts, which was my least favorite part.

I do try to keep protein around 1-1.5g per 1lb, which works well for me, but I respond to what my body tells me and do not measure my quantities out.

If your cutting, lowering your caloric intake is by far the most important part. Tweaking your macro ratios is the next step, but make sure you don’t wipe out the first part by overloading on fat (or whatever your substituting with).

28

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

[quote]silverhydra wrote:
Surprisingly good thread (for the first 8 posts at least), and it’s nice to see everyone’s views on this topic.

I usually call carbs my ‘dietary diety’, they’re either your God, or a Demon, depending on how they are used.

As for me, (and the following is pretty much 95% anecdotal), I have found that I lose (and gain) body fat easier on a higher fat diet, and when a higher percentage of my diet is comprised of carbs, my weight tends to stay similar.

I remember reading a study on athletes that showed those with a higher percentage and total carbohydrates in the diet gained less body fat than was expected due to their caloric excess, and it was hypothesized that this is because it was being burned off. Led me to the (very) preliminary conclusion that given the two main energy substrates (Fat and Carbs), the more one eats, the more their body ‘trades’ in that substrate (Adipose and Glycogen, respectively).

From this, I usually have the fat totals, and minor deviation in protein totals, between cutting and bulking, as I want my excess calories to have less ability to be stored on my body (See ‘weight tends to stay similar’)
Cutting calories for a cut can be done for me by simply eating less carbs, as I can gain weight on a well balanced 2500kcal a day :D[/quote]

I had to one part of that to be sure lol but you’re saying you lose fat faster on a high fat diet, but that you also gain fat faster when gaining on high fats? I’d say that’s similar to what I’ve noticed as well, more so with the gaining statement.

So when you need to gain you just raise the carbs and keep fat about the same correct? If so that seems like what BlakedaMan and I mentioned as well, keeping fat about the same and manipulating carbs as necessary

[/quote]

Yeah, gain and loss of fat is much more prominent when I am on a high fat diet.

Kind of an odd way of measuring it, but I have recently recovered from what I call a mild binge eating problem (and what some on this site would refer to as a ‘cheat day’), but have found that after a higher carb phase, when I eat more than an extra 2000kcal than usual for a day, I start to burn up, and the fat gain the next day (even water) is much less noticable than if I was coming off of a lower carb phase.

Also noticed this effect with exercise, binges affect me much less (and burn me up more) when my cardio is glycogen-dependent (complexes) in comparison to steady-state, although the latter has actually given me better fat loss. (Over 2 week phases, my cuts are rarely longer)

Edit: Because of this, all my cuts end with a complex-only, slightly higher carb (%) phase in order to help with what I have seen as this ‘transition’, in aims to prevent fat accumulation when I eat more carbs routinely for gain.

29

[quote]silverhydra wrote:

Yeah, gain and loss of fat is much more prominent when I am on a high fat diet.

Kind of an odd way of measuring it, but I have recently recovered from what I call a mild binge eating problem (and what some on this site would refer to as a ‘cheat day’), but have found that after a higher carb phase, when I eat more than an extra 2000kcal than usual for a day, I start to burn up, and the fat gain the next day (even water) is much less noticable than if I was coming off of a lower carb phase.

Also noticed this effect with exercise, binges affect me much less (and burn me up more) when my cardio is glycogen-dependent (complexes) in comparison to steady-state, although the latter has actually given me better fat loss. (Over 2 week phases, my cuts are rarely longer)
[/quote]

Those are interesting observations. The 2nd one definitely makes sense because you would be using more glycogen in your training so less would be stored as fat. As for the first one though (noticing less fat/water gain after a cheat day on a high carb diet) I would think that has a lot to do with water. As in, if your already eating high carbs and your glycogen/water stores are full there obviously wouldn’t be as noticeable of a difference compared to if you were depleted of both from being on low carbs.

30

Wow I didn’t even realize I’ve been on here 5 years. I guess I joined 5 years ago, but I didn’t really starting getting into it until 3 years ago.

[quote]ALA wrote:

[quote]BlakedaMan wrote:
That was about 3 years ago, when I found TNATION and started getting into lifting more intelligently and eating better.[/quote]

5 years ago you silly boy!!! It’s 2010 not 2008, unless your join date is incorrect.

Anyway, it’s all about trail and error, we don’t all have identical genetic compatibilities in terms of nutrition.[/quote]

31

I’ve always had a fast metabolism, but maybe a synopsis of how I would eat on a daily basis back then would enlighten you as to why I was chubby.

I’m guessing I was probably 5’4, and 120ish pounds and didn’t exercise. So, I would eat something like this:

Breakfast: 4 eggs, 4 pieces of buttered toast with big glass of OJ
Lunch: 2-3 cookies (probably 4 inches in diameter each, so not small) and 2-3 six piece chicken nuggets, breaded and fried
Dinner: full BIG basket of fries and chicken tenders
Dessert: a full 6 inch wide, 2 inch deep Mud Pie to myself

Throughout the day I’d drink soda and each chocolates and chips.

I’d say that’s a pretty good amount of calories for someone who’s 120ish pounds! So my chubbiness was really a matter of how shitty my food intake was, and not so much my calorie intake, since I wasn’t really gaining weight eating like this, despite the fact that I never, ever exercised.

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

[quote]BlakedaMan wrote:
Last time I was adding weight my carbs were 300-500g on workout days, about 100-150g on off days. Fat was about 80-100g. Once every 5th or 6th day I had a full on cheat day, since I struggle to gain weight as it is. Weight gain was pretty slow with this for me since I have a really fast metabolism.
Since I’ve been cutting the past 7 weeks, I’ve been taking in typically around 90g fat and 100g carbs, and every 5th day I carb up with trace fats, but I started out pretty lean anyways (fully visible upper 4 abs).

I actually get both with higher fat gaining diets - slower and sloppier gains.

[/quote]

Glad to see maybe I’m not alone is that aspect lol. I’m surprised you say you have a fast metabolism and have trouble gaining weight, yet you started off chubby with high-teens level body fat?

[/quote]

32

This thread really is solid. It’s interesting to see a couple of you guys went through the same shit that I did…I was 5’9", 105 at one point after being a 5’4" 120lb fat, then 5’8", 135 skinny-fat kid. Cross-country caused me to shed a shit-load of weight, along with malnutrition (read:attempt at healthy eating…had I been 40 years old instead of 16). Unfortunately (and even though “technically” I was…)…an over-protective parent/medical combo freaked out, accused me of anorexia and generally pissed me off. So I said fuck them for a couple of years and spent long, long hours grinding it out in the weight room.

I eventually got up to 170 on VERY high carbs at 5’9"-ish. My BF didnt break 5% until I was over 150 (3 months, almost 40lb). Then I got lazy, depressed, and fat. Given how much I was eating, relative to decreased expenditure, it’s a testament to my metabolism that I never went above 170, although my BF hit 20. Last spring, I dropped 35 lb in a month+, and have sort of been yo-yoing since then, trying to get a handle on my goals.

I’m like you guys in the sense that…I like to be lean. Too much flab pisses me off, just as a sign of laziness, sloth…not really masculine. Bulking is tough for me, because I want to do it cleanly, but then run into trouble getting in enough calories. And I’m still pretty obsessed with training…I love the clarity it gives me, the innner-struggle. I’d prefer to way over-train then ever under train. I guess at this point I don’t have any defined goals (ie strength, size).

As for carbs…I definitely need them substantially peri-workout. I’m big on HUGE salads (lots of lettuce) later in the day…but other than a mid-day gylcogen replinish have been avoiding starchy carbs. Fruits/nuts and proteins at regular intervals make me feel satiated and happier over the course of the day, although I know I would do better at the gym and have higher energy levels on moderately higher carbs. I would also be more inclined to sluggishness.

Still got a weakness for protein bars. Currently using MAG-10, Anaconda, Promax Bars, and FINiBARs peri-workout, along with Fast Twitch. Doin two-a-days and getting ready for college.

Personally, I consider my eating slightly disordered, but only because my concern/concentration on nutrition puts me (all of us, really), in the minority. Americans eat what they can get their hands on easily, which tends to be less optimal that a more considered approach. We don’t live like our ancestors, who ate what was at hand out of neccessity…out of scarcity. Is it really so disordered to worry about nutrition? Or is it that it takes time and effort to figure out what works best for you, to give you the highest quality of life and standard of self-control?

I know I’m not happy being chubby. I’m not thrilled about currently being skinny. And strength is more important to me than size (or at least of equal importance). The challenge is being confident in your goals, and figuring out how to achieve them, without letting them rule your life.

33

First, my take on this subject is completely anecdotal. What I wll say is that when I ‘re-discovered’ the iron five years ago I was a 224lb chunk of blubber. My nutritional knowledge was formed many years prior during my teenage years reading Weider bodybuilding mags. As a result I automatically assumed a low calorie/fat, high carb diet was the only protocol to follow and didn’t do any up to date research.

The weight began to drop dramatically but progress in the gym quickly became stagnant. I got down to 164lbs, with the final 10lbs real torture. However, the only comments I received were negative. It took me a while to see I actually looked like a skinned rabbit, apart from a persistent layer of fat around the waist. My face was drawn and friends claimed I looked like I was a prisoner of war. I became disillusioned that despite getting down to 164lbs I still had little abdominal definition.

I then started to research the subject and made the decision to try a CKD approach. The results were automatically apparent, e.g. more energy, strength increases, no mood swings, increased libido, increased abdominal definition, etc. Of course, it required some tweaking over time to find the right CKD for me. Friends were now commenting on how athletic and healthy I looked.

I look back and wonder what might have happened if I had adopted such an approach back at 224lbs. The lesson I learned is that for optimal body composition, a very low carb approach works wonders for me.

34

JB007, do you follow a CKD for gaining as well or just when trying to get leaner?

35

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
JB007, do you follow a CKD for gaining as well or just when trying to get leaner?[/quote]

Sorry to ask, but what is CKD? I am not familiar with it.

36

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
JB007, do you follow a CKD for gaining as well or just when trying to get leaner?[/quote]

I follow a targeted carb approach as outlined by CT (basically carbs pre-workout only {around 100g} with the rest of the time being P+F). I have found it is possible to lose fat and gain some strength following this approach.
However, I still use strict keto when on short fat loss bursts lasting 2-4 weeks; with a small carb-up/cheat once every 7 days.

37

I wonder if this has to do with what kind of energy system that you mostly use. Aerobic uses fat while anaerobic is carb based.

38

[quote]WestCoast7 wrote:

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
JB007, do you follow a CKD for gaining as well or just when trying to get leaner?[/quote]

Sorry to ask, but what is CKD? I am not familiar with it.[/quote]

Cyclical Ketogenic Diet. Generally it’s 5-6 days of low carbs (below 30g or so) and 1-2 days of carbing up (many different methods here).

[quote]JamesBrawn007 wrote:

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
JB007, do you follow a CKD for gaining as well or just when trying to get leaner?[/quote]

I follow a targeted carb approach as outlined by CT (basically carbs pre-workout only {around 100g} with the rest of the time being P+F). I have found it is possible to lose fat and gain some strength following this approach.
However, I still use strict keto when on short fat loss bursts lasting 2-4 weeks; with a small carb-up/cheat once every 7 days.[/quote]

What is your fat generally at when gaining at cutting? I think I’m remembering you not really eating that much food in general (below 3000 Calories)

39

[quote]iceman187 wrote:
I wonder if this has to do with what kind of energy system that you mostly use. Aerobic uses fat while anaerobic is carb based.[/quote]

I was thinking the same thing JB. You weren’t exactly using the diet alone to transform your physique. IIRC you were doing lots of complexes and elevated your heart rate to well over 170 BPM.

What this all boils down to is some people prefer the P+F method and keep carbs low, while others prefer the P+C method and keep fat low…at the end of the day the calories are the deciding factor. Personal preference prevails

40

Ehh I don’t agree. I’ve seen the argument many times that total calories is all that matters, but I think that’s false. Our bodies are just too complex for it to be only a matter of total amount of energy without consideration to source and timing.

[quote]phatkins187 wrote:

[quote]iceman187 wrote:
I wonder if this has to do with what kind of energy system that you mostly use. Aerobic uses fat while anaerobic is carb based.[/quote]

I was thinking the same thing JB. You weren’t exactly using the diet alone to transform your physique. IIRC you were doing lots of complexes and elevated your heart rate to well over 170 BPM.

What this all boils down to is some people prefer the P+F method and keep carbs low, while others prefer the P+C method and keep fat low…at the end of the day the calories are the deciding factor. Personal preference prevails[/quote]