Low Carb/High Fat vs High Carb/Low Fat

Diet and Nutrition
1

Hi friends,

I know that there are more there one way to skin a cat, but I was wondering what my fellow T-Nationers think about the low carb/high fat diet vs. a high carb/low fat diet. From what i have seen on the training logs, people tend to choose one method over the other.

I was wondering what are your thoughts about the advantages and disadvantages on each diet? Which diet has more solid science evidence backing it? Which option is better for the long term? Which is better for health? Which diet is better for cutting and which is better for bulking? Do some people suit one diet more than the other(genetic influences)? Feel free to add your own experience of the 2 different diet philosophies.

Go.

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2

Man, we could debate this for eternity. I fall into the “low-carb” camp but it’s all relative. My low-carb would be considered high carb by some, but carbs are low relative to the amount of fat I eat.

I think carb-cycling is the most sensible way to do it, personally.

3

Generally, from what I read, if you were a fat kid, been fat for a while, or live a sedentary lifestyle, low carb is the way to go. Otherwise, carbs are your friend.

I just calculated where my macros are going to end up when I finish my reverse diet (I guess you could call it a lean bulk, considering it’ll take several months), and I’ll ingest about 50 percent of my calories from fat. That seems really high to me, and I am a little concerned about how to ingest that much fat in a healthy manner. I’m sure I’ll hate avocados by the end.

4

Probably the only blanket statement we can make is that insulin sensitivity (ie. leanness) and carbs tolerance will go hand-in-hand.

Otherwise, it’s all gonna come down to individual response to each approach (ie. good ole trial-and-error) and consideration of the individual’s goals (ie. performance or general health or etc) at the time.

5

Thanks for the responses so far.
Lets hear more about the advantages vs disadvantages, and feel free to discuss your own experience with the 2 different approaches.

Go.

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6

In my experience I feel better with low-ish carbs (under 250 grams daily) and lose some fat, but my training isn’t as good as when I eat more carbs (400 grams daily). I guess I’m still trying to find a balance. Personally I haven’t had much luck with carb cycling and I don’t find that my glycogen stores filling up after “high” days, but maybe I just haven’t hit my perfect ratio yet.

Reducing carbs is the only way I know how to lose fat, but that comes with shittier training and looking lousy (flat and skinny-fat). Takes me almost a week at higher carb levels to “fill out” after a period of dieting, but then I’m usually back to my same levels of body fat after a couple months. Theres gotta be a happy medium in there somewhere but I haven’t found it yet.

7

[quote]theBird wrote:
I was wondering what my fellow T-Nationers think about the low carb/high fat diet vs. a high carb/low fat diet.
Which is better for health? Which diet is better for cutting and which is better for bulking?[/quote]
Better for whom? Me? You? Everybody who lifts?

8

[quote]tolismann wrote:

[quote]theBird wrote:
I was wondering what my fellow T-Nationers think about the low carb/high fat diet vs. a high carb/low fat diet.
Which is better for health? Which diet is better for cutting and which is better for bulking?[/quote]
Better for whom? Me? You? Everybody who lifts?
[/quote]
Im just trying to generate some discussion on the issue. Its not a specific question, but I assume most if us do some type of lifting.
What are your thoughts?
tweet

9

[quote]theBird wrote:

[quote]tolismann wrote:

[quote]theBird wrote:
I was wondering what my fellow T-Nationers think about the low carb/high fat diet vs. a high carb/low fat diet.
Which is better for health? Which diet is better for cutting and which is better for bulking?[/quote]
Better for whom? Me? You? Everybody who lifts?
[/quote]
Im just trying to generate some discussion on the issue. Its not a specific question, but I assume most if us do some type of lifting.
What are your thoughts?
[/quote]Depends on the person, his age, his type of training, his goals, his preferences, his budget, his lifestyle.

10

[quote]tolismann wrote:

[quote]theBird wrote:

[quote]tolismann wrote:

[quote]theBird wrote:
I was wondering what my fellow T-Nationers think about the low carb/high fat diet vs. a high carb/low fat diet.
Which is better for health? Which diet is better for cutting and which is better for bulking?[/quote]

Better for whom? Me? You? Everybody who lifts?
[/quote]
Im just trying to generate some discussion on the issue. Its not a specific question, but I assume most if us do some type of lifting.
What are your thoughts?
[/quote]Depends on the person, his age, his type of training, his goals, his preferences, his budget, his lifestyle.
[/quote]
Male, 30’s, weight training 3x/week with 2 days of conditioning such as hill sprints, to look good naked and promote health/wellbeing, has a office job and can afford whatever food he wants.

tweet

11

[quote]1 Man Island wrote:
I am a little concerned about how to ingest that much fat in a healthy manner. I’m sure I’ll hate avocados by the end.[/quote]

Egg Yolks
Fattier cuts of meat (duck legs, turkey legs, etc) with skin on
Coconut oil (can be added to almost anything, smoothies, desserts, veggies, entrees)
Kerrygold butter - cook your veggies in butter!

That’s a start :slight_smile:

12

I think it was Charles Poliquin that suggested that 75% of our population would do well on a low carb diet and the other 25% would do well on high carbs.

I for one vote low carb with timed carb ups. I find that I run smoother on a low carb eating plan. Don’t get me wrong carbs have their place, but for me it works best when I manage their timing.

Some excerpts from Dr Mauro DiPasquale:

On “How we’re made to eat” - - – “Man’s earliest diet probably consisted mainly of meat supplemented by periodic feedings of carbohydrates. It was only with the development of agriculture a mere 10,000 years ago that any large change was seen. In the nearly 50 million years of man’s existence before that, man was largely carnivorous and lived off animal flesh.”

---- “What people don’t understand is that the body can produce glucose without taking in carbs (gluconeogenesis) and that protein and fat can be used to provide energy and replenish ATP. It is a misconception that you must have dietary carbs to function. This is likely only true in some cases where a person may be genetically challenged as far as utilizing fats efficiently.”

Some other low carb proponents include:

Rob Faigin
The Eskimos (pre-McDonalds)
Vince Gironda (low carb Godfather)
Lyle McDonald

My opinion,
JK

13

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
Egg Yolks
Fattier cuts of meat (duck legs, turkey legs, etc) with skin on
Coconut oil (can be added to almost anything, smoothies, desserts, veggies, entrees)
Kerrygold butter - cook your veggies in butter!

That’s a start :)[/quote]

Good list. I would add ‘avocado’ and occasional ‘high-quality EVOO’ and it’s pretty complete.

I also think that calling these the “healthy fats” is understating it; it’s more like they’re “essential fats” and that their intake is “essential” to optimizing general health.

14

[quote]JK29 wrote:
Some other low carb proponents include:

Rob Faigin
The Eskimos (pre-McDonalds)
Vince Gironda (low carb Godfather)
Lyle McDonald
[/quote]
In fairness, we need to include Art De Vany here as well.

15

First, I’ll say straight out there are a ton of people who do the opposite of what I do with great results. I?m just giving my views, not saying it?s the only way. I’ll also add the caveat that I’m a natty, and I’m sure being enhanced changes things.

I’m pretty anti-carb. My diet is something like 70/20/10 fat/protein/carbs. Basically, I eat quality meat, veggies, nuts, and some dairy. I eat whenever I’m hungry as much as I want. Doing this, I’m not OCD about calories and macros or timing and I’m far leaner and stronger than eating higher carbs.

I got into my style of eating for health reasons (heart specifically). The truth is that most fat is at worse heart health neutral. Saturated fat has no real impact on heart disease. About the only fats you should really watch are from things like vegetable oils which are high in unsaturated omega sixes. My blood work is actually far far better eating pounds of fatty meat than eating loafs of bread. A potato is much worse for my heart than a steak.

I think there are some pretty big pitfalls people get into with low carb though. First, Transition takes time. You have to get through withdrawal symptoms. You generally will feel like crap coming off of carbs and getting your body up and running on fat. Second, if you are going to do this, you have to get all the bullshit government driven fear of fat out of your head. Eat the chicken skin, get the fattier ground beef, put butter on stuff, add heavy cream to your coffee, saute your veggies in bacon grease, quit throwing out egg yolks. If you try it and are afraid of these things, getting the necessary calories from avocado and olive oil will fucking suck and you will be miserable. Third, check what you are actually eating. You?d be surprised how much flour is in the breading of chicken tenders. Tons of things in restaurants and cans have lots of added sugar and wheat. You?d be surprised how many carbs you can get in a salad at Wendy?s, don?t assume.

16

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
First, I’ll say straight out there are a ton of people who do the opposite of what I do with great results. I?m just giving my views, not saying it?s the only way. I’ll also add the caveat that I’m a natty, and I’m sure being enhanced changes things.

I’m pretty anti-carb. My diet is something like 70/20/10 fat/protein/carbs. Basically, I eat quality meat, veggies, nuts, and some dairy. I eat whenever I’m hungry as much as I want. Doing this, I’m not OCD about calories and macros or timing and I’m far leaner and stronger than eating higher carbs.

I got into my style of eating for health reasons (heart specifically). The truth is that most fat is at worse heart health neutral. Saturated fat has no real impact on heart disease. About the only fats you should really watch are from things like vegetable oils which are high in unsaturated omega sixes. My blood work is actually far far better eating pounds of fatty meat than eating loafs of bread. A potato is much worse for my heart than a steak.

I think there are some pretty big pitfalls people get into with low carb though. First, Transition takes time. You have to get through withdrawal symptoms. You generally will feel like crap coming off of carbs and getting your body up and running on fat. Second, if you are going to do this, you have to get all the bullshit government driven fear of fat out of your head. Eat the chicken skin, get the fattier ground beef, put butter on stuff, add heavy cream to your coffee, saute your veggies in bacon grease, quit throwing out egg yolks. If you try it and are afraid of these things, getting the necessary calories from avocado and olive oil will fucking suck and you will be miserable. Third, check what you are actually eating. You?d be surprised how much flour is in the breading of chicken tenders. Tons of things in restaurants and cans have lots of added sugar and wheat. You?d be surprised how many carbs you can get in a salad at Wendy?s, don?t assume.
[/quote]

testify, brother! Although 70% calories from fat wouldn’t be easy. I’d say I was about 50%, myself.

Anyone else find that when they went low carb there was a period when they just didn’t get hungry? It was weird, there was like a week when I was just eating because I knew I was supposed to, not because I felt like I needed it.

17

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
First, I’ll say straight out there are a ton of people who do the opposite of what I do with great results. I?m just giving my views, not saying it?s the only way. I’ll also add the caveat that I’m a natty, and I’m sure being enhanced changes things.

I’m pretty anti-carb. My diet is something like 70/20/10 fat/protein/carbs. Basically, I eat quality meat, veggies, nuts, and some dairy. I eat whenever I’m hungry as much as I want. Doing this, I’m not OCD about calories and macros or timing and I’m far leaner and stronger than eating higher carbs.

I got into my style of eating for health reasons (heart specifically). The truth is that most fat is at worse heart health neutral. Saturated fat has no real impact on heart disease. About the only fats you should really watch are from things like vegetable oils which are high in unsaturated omega sixes. My blood work is actually far far better eating pounds of fatty meat than eating loafs of bread. A potato is much worse for my heart than a steak.

I think there are some pretty big pitfalls people get into with low carb though. First, Transition takes time. You have to get through withdrawal symptoms. You generally will feel like crap coming off of carbs and getting your body up and running on fat. Second, if you are going to do this, you have to get all the bullshit government driven fear of fat out of your head. Eat the chicken skin, get the fattier ground beef, put butter on stuff, add heavy cream to your coffee, saute your veggies in bacon grease, quit throwing out egg yolks. If you try it and are afraid of these things, getting the necessary calories from avocado and olive oil will fucking suck and you will be miserable. Third, check what you are actually eating. You?d be surprised how much flour is in the breading of chicken tenders. Tons of things in restaurants and cans have lots of added sugar and wheat. You?d be surprised how many carbs you can get in a salad at Wendy?s, don?t assume.
[/quote]

testify, brother! Although 70% calories from fat wouldn’t be easy. I’d say I was about 50%, myself.

Anyone else find that when they went low carb there was a period when they just didn’t get hungry? It was weird, there was like a week when I was just eating because I knew I was supposed to, not because I felt like I needed it.
[/quote]

About 55%-65% of my calories come from fat. 30%-40% from Protein.

In order to gain weight on an eating style like this it does seem to take more calories. For me atleast. Eating does become a chore.

When you’re sitting there at lunch, 3 hours after second breakfast, with a pound of ground beef smothered in 3 tbsp of Olive Oil and a hand full of cheese; you realize the amount of food you’re going to have to eat to gain a significant amount of weight on a low carb diet.

The “chore” can be fun though. Don’t get me wrong.

JK

PS: I also have a better blood profile on a low carb diet with weekly carbups. (As opposed to a traditional BB higher carb diet)

18

Going low carb right now and, after reading these posts, I was surprised to see that I am over 50% cals from fat myself. I replaced my nightly KitKat with 1/4 cup of natty peanut or almond butter. The low cals suck sometimes (doing IF too) but the higher fat and big ass pieces of meat I get to eat each night keep me nice and full until bedtime.

Once I get leaner, I will up my carbs as I tolerate them waaay better when I’m down to around 10% or so. But I simply find it more difficult to go high carb/low fat when restricting calories. Low carb seems to work a lot better for me…both for my fat loss and sanity.

19

I want to echo this statement. I tried low carb high fat (LCHF) about 3 years ago – and it is so counter intuitive to what has been in-grained by the general media. Here are examples I caught myself doing early in the diet:

  • reaching for low cal or low fat dressing instead of EVOO (for less calories)
  • going for skinless chicken breast, instead of steak, fish, or skin on chicken
  • going for low fat cottage cheese instead of high fat (fewer calories)
  • reaching for skim milk instead of heavy cream at the coffee shop (I take my own coconut oil now)
  • contemplating eating a bagel that were brought to the meeting – I’ll just skip the cream cheese to keep the calories down. Now I skip both.

Here are other “bizarre” things I do:

  • I will occasionally go to “lunch” with my colleagues (for the social interaction) – but I won’t eat. Or I only have club soda or coffee. Try explaining that one the first time ( “Yes, I’m eating this LCHF diet, and I tend to fast, and only eat when I’m hungry, so I’m not eating this garbage right now.” I’ve had colleagues say: “That’s not healthy.” “You need a ‘cleansing diet.’” “Moderation is key – and skipping meals is not moderation.” “You will go into starvation mode and slow your metabolism.” “You have to eat healthy grains – like in bread.” Now I just say – I’m trying to keep my blood sugar low.

  • sometimes I carry a tiny plastic squeeze bulb of EVOO to dinner, so I can increase the fat content of a salad.

  • I have a 6 yo daughter, so pizza is a staple. I will eat a piece or two where I only eat the cheese, meat and veggie toppings. It is impossible to avoid all the sauce – but it works for me. It is amazing how many calories appear to be left on the plate – when you look at some left over “naked” pizza crusts.

  • alcohol – I generally only drink high alcohol stuff with simple mixers (whisky and club soda, vodka and club soda.) Or a glass of dry wine. No beer. Less alcohol is better.

Another pitfall I found was “going off” of LCHF. Last Thanksgiving, I decided to splurge and eat some pie. I completely regressed to old eating patterns for 4 months and had a substantial weight rebound (about 20 lbs).

From my experience, I have found that I loose weight when eating LCHF, with little effort. Calories still matter, but I find it much “harder” to over eat now.

There is an adjustment period – where you will just feel out of sorts – but for me – it subsides after about a week.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

I think there are some pretty big pitfalls people get into with low carb though. First, Transition takes time. You have to get through withdrawal symptoms. You generally will feel like crap coming off of carbs and getting your body up and running on fat. Second, if you are going to do this, you have to get all the bullshit government driven fear of fat out of your head. Eat the chicken skin, get the fattier ground beef, put butter on stuff, add heavy cream to your coffee, saute your veggies in bacon grease, quit throwing out egg yolks. If you try it and are afraid of these things, getting the necessary calories from avocado and olive oil will fucking suck and you will be miserable. Third, check what you are actually eating. You?d be surprised how much flour is in the breading of chicken tenders. Tons of things in restaurants and cans have lots of added sugar and wheat. You?d be surprised how many carbs you can get in a salad at Wendy?s, don?t assume.
[/quote]

20

[quote]fatInIC wrote:

  • I will occasionally go to “lunch” with my colleagues (for the social interaction) – but I won’t eat. Or I only have club soda or coffee. Try explaining that one the first time ( “Yes, I’m eating this LCHF diet, and I tend to fast, and only eat when I’m hungry, so I’m not eating this garbage right now.” I’ve had colleagues say: “That’s not healthy.” “You need a ‘cleansing diet.’” “Moderation is key – and skipping meals is not moderation.” “You will go into starvation mode and slow your metabolism.” “You have to eat healthy grains – like in bread.” Now I just say – I’m trying to keep my blood sugar low.

[/quote]

I use this little trick from time to time. When people (I don’t really know) start giving me a hard time at a restaurant for eating a chicken salad with no dressing or not eating the bread or chips, I just tell them I’m a diabetic and they instantly stop.

Explaining my diet to them takes too long, and besides; they’re going to just tell me I’m unhealthy anyway.

It’s worked every time.

oh oh oh and:

I had a 300 pound woman at the checkout line tell me (a visibly in shape person I might add) that I’m unhealthy and I need to get my cholesterol checked when I was buying 5 dozen eggs. Took everything I had not to unload verbally on her.

You’ll be amazed what you hear eating this way!

JK29