Your numbers are too low, you’re not gonna retain any muscle. You may lose a little weight at first from such a deficit, but then your metabolism will bottom out and you won’t be able to cut any lower.
Assuming your need about 2625 cals a day (175 x 15) to maintain your current bodyweight (including your bf%), that means that you’d need a SMALL amount less in order to see some shifts in body composition. Let’s be conservative, and figure 2400 cals. You’d want about 200g of protein, at the least (probably 250 is a better number). Then you’d try to get 200-220g of carbs (complex except for post workout if you’d like). THis would leave you with 60-80g of healthy fats to fill the gaps (some PB, fish oils etc).
Personally, I’m a big fan of cyclical diets, you can find a lot of stuff written about them on here.
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Your numbers are too low, you’re not gonna retain any muscle. You may lose a little weight at first from such a deficit, but then your metabolism will bottom out and you won’t be able to cut any lower.
Assuming your need about 2625 cals a day (175 x 15) to maintain your current bodyweight (including your bf%), that means that you’d need a SMALL amount less in order to see some shifts in body composition. Let’s be conservative, and figure 2400 cals. You’d want about 200g of protein, at the least (probably 250 is a better number). Then you’d try to get 200-220g of carbs (complex except for post workout if you’d like). THis would leave you with 60-80g of healthy fats to fill the gaps (some PB, fish oils etc).
Personally, I’m a big fan of cyclical diets, you can find a lot of stuff written about them on here.
S[/quote]
Im loathed to question a guy with your experience Stu, but at over a gram of protein per bodyweight and over 100 grabs of carbs, is this too low?
What do you believe to be more important, Calories or amount of Protien/ Carbs?
I find it’s very individual. Stu, you probably tend to lose too much LBM if you don’t keep your calorie deficit small. A guy with 12-13% bodyfat still can probably lose significant amounts of fat with a larger deficit. Someone posted a Berardi article about whether the body prefers to use fat or LBM for fuel when dieting and how it depends on the overall level of fatness.
I think the cutoff was around 8-10% BF when someone needs to reduce their deficit to 500 kcal or less to prevent the loss of LBM.
BW X 10 might be a good starting calorie level (it works best for me) because I’m still around the 12-15% BF level. So upping calories to 1,800-2,000 still might be beneficial.
stevo_ I agree that 1 g/lb LBM of protein is the absolute minimum anyone serious about lifting weights should go. Carbs and fat are both muscle sparing as well and as long as the carbs are present during high intensity activity, the body will spare muscle and use carbs for fuel.
OP, definitely read up on cyclical diets like Stu recommended. A basic carb cycle would set protein at 1-1.5 g/lb, fat at 50g, and carbs go up and down based on the level of daily activity. And remember to lift heavy!
I’ve noticed that many people seem scared of carbs, when in actuality, they’re the things that allow your body to spare muscle being used for fuel (Tim told me that if you want to teach you body to burn muscle for fuel, just go on a high protein diet -lol). Now, granted you need a decent amount of protein to ensure you’re getting enough, but there are just way too many people who drop carbs to excessively low amounts, yet never get as lean as they’d like to.
Provided you’re in a caloric deficit, your body will have to use what you’re giving it, that means ideally that the carbs will protect the protein so it can be used to maintain your muscle mass.
The numbers I threw out above, create about a 250 cal deficit each day (you don’t wanna go too low too soon, or you’ll have nowhere to play with later!). That adds up to about 1750 cals a week, roughly half a lb lost just from dietary manipulation. Throw in a few bouts of high intensity cardio, and you’re looking at 3/4 - 1 lb of fat loss per week. Simple, effective, and slow,… ideal for preserving muscle mass.
STEVEO- You’re not wrong in looking at macro ratios, but people tend to get too caught up in carbs vs proteins, and then can’t figure out why they’re not ripped. Alternately, it’s not just as simple as cals in vs cals out, but you must have some sort of negative calorie balance. After that it comes down to the ideal ratio for the individual to preserve lean tissue while still moving towards their goal.
The best times to target your carbs are peri-workout, and then with your breakfast (in that order of importance). When you do have to cut a little bit more (and you will, but don’t rush to do it), take small steps (you always want to have more step-downs available as you stall).
As far as where to cut from, I wouldn’t let protein go below 200g… fat can be chipped away from (but try to have some, even if it’s just a few fish oil capsules), and carbs,… well, that’s tricky… people rush to cut carbs, but again, they’re what protects your muscle. You can drop them a little, but unless you’re really towards the end, already in single digit bodyfat levels, I wouldn’t go below 100g a day (and quite honestly, would prefer you stay above 150g!)
I know this is an old thread but i am confused about something here:
Surely the issue with carbs in a diet designed to shed bodyfat is the insulin secretion that accompanies carbs. Equally, i was under the impression that fat cannot be burned whilst insulin is spiked. I realise the argument here is to use complex carbs but surely your body can only do one things with carbs: turn them into sugar and hence illicit a spike of insulin, inhibiting liposis. With this in mind i was under the impression that a better approach would be to intake say ~100g of high GI carbs in the pre-workout period (this will spike insulin and send protein and other nutrients to muscles) and the sugar stored as glycogen will primarily be burned as energy during the workout. I am by no means an expert and i’m not disputing opinion, simply looking for clarification.
[quote]jonny142 wrote:
I know this is an old thread but i am confused about something here:
Surely the issue with carbs in a diet designed to shed bodyfat is the insulin secretion that accompanies carbs. Equally, i was under the impression that fat cannot be burned whilst insulin is spiked. I realise the argument here is to use complex carbs but surely your body can only do one things with carbs: turn them into sugar and hence illicit a spike of insulin, inhibiting liposis. With this in mind i was under the impression that a better approach would be to intake say ~100g of high GI carbs in the pre-workout period (this will spike insulin and send protein and other nutrients to muscles) and the sugar stored as glycogen will primarily be burned as energy during the workout. I am by no means an expert and i’m not disputing opinion, simply looking for clarification. [/quote]
But insulin isn’t spiked all day (hopefully). You may not burn fat for a bit after ingesting carbs, but if you’re still in a deficit at the end of the day you’ll lose fat.
Agreed, however, with this in mind is there any need to consume carbs at any point in the day other than para-workout and upon waking? I appreciate that there is an argument to say that carbs will provide body with an alternate source of energy and hence not use amino acids in glucogenesis but surely fat would serve the same function. Equally, if fat is the dominant macro-nutrient in the diet the body will use this primarily and then (in theory) burn dietary fat to balance the deficit rather than resorting to amino acids.
Agreed, however, with this in mind is there any need to consume carbs at any point in the day other than para-workout and upon waking? I appreciate that there is an argument to say that carbs will provide body with an alternate source of energy and hence not use amino acids in glucogenesis but surely fat would serve the same function. Equally, if fat is the dominant macro-nutrient in the diet the body will use this primarily and then (in theory) burn dietary fat to balance the deficit rather than resorting to amino acids.
Stu:
My stats are similar to OP’s (slightly more BF%, 14-15%). Would 300g protein NOT counting whatever I get around my workouts be too much? Should the 200g of carbs include workout carbs or not? Would setting carbs to trace on low days, 75-100g on moderate days and 150g on high days NOT counting workout carbs be a good approach? Also, if I consume all my workout carbs about 30 min before lifting, should I only do so before heavy lifting sessions or also (maybe in smaller quantities) before conditioning sessions (complexes+cardio)?
Sorry for the semi-hijack OP, but with our stats being so close maybe you’ll find the answers helpful too.
[quote]jonny142 wrote:
Agreed, however, with this in mind is there any need to consume carbs at any point in the day other than para-workout and upon waking? I appreciate that there is an argument to say that carbs will provide body with an alternate source of energy and hence not use amino acids in glucogenesis but surely fat would serve the same function. Equally, if fat is the dominant macro-nutrient in the diet the body will use this primarily and then (in theory) burn dietary fat to balance the deficit rather than resorting to amino acids. [/quote]
It depends on how you react. Just try it out and how it goes.
BiP: Firstly, even if it’s from your peri-workout nutrition, you still have to account for any macros you ingest. The reason that carbs taken at such a potent time is noteworthy, is that it will better ensure a more productive workout, hence more muscle stim, ultimately leading to less loss of lean mass while in a deficit (your body will use more of it’s resources to recover from the damage you just inflicted upon it’s muscles)
I certainly think that a cyclical approach like you mentioned would work well (I use carb cycling myself), but the specific numbers are going to be an individual thing. My rule of thumb is to have as many carbs as you can, while still managing to lose fat. After a certain point, excess protein won’t preserve muscle, but carbs will. This whole carb-phobia thing is because of mainstream media’s latching onto the water-weight loss, and general loss of appetite that comes with suddenly switching to a low carb diet (and usually the accompanying higher protein intake will create more of a thermic, as well as satiating effect within the body).
As far as carbs before conditioning work,… When I’m dieting for a show, I don’t ingest carbs beforehand if all I’m going to do is cardio work. If I’m going to be doing some weight work (maybe ‘extras’, like abs, forearms, calves), I may have a smaller carb meal (maybe 1 finibar), rationalizing that I’ll burn through it by the time I get to the cardio. During the last couple of weeks of contest prep, my ‘low’ carb days are <50g, and are mostly from incidental sources. This is of course after several ‘step-downs’ throughout a 15 week process (Early on, my ‘low’ days were about 150g, while my ‘high’ days 300, with ‘medium’ days at about 250g - all of this was with some amount of a caloric deficit, keep in mind).
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I certainly think that a cyclical approach like you mentioned would work well (I use carb cycling myself)
S[/quote]
Stu, i’ve seen you say you’re a fan of cyclical approaches a couple times (i think), when you say that do you mean solely carb cycling or do you do stuff like protein and calorie cycling as well?
EDIT: of course some cycling of cals/protein occur in diets coincidentally but i mean in the big picture…
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
This whole carb-phobia thing is because of mainstream media’s latching onto the water-weight loss, and general loss of appetite that comes with suddenly switching to a low carb diet (and usually the accompanying higher protein intake will create more of a thermic, as well as satiating effect within the body).[/quote]
I could’ve sworn I have read from a lot of respected authors on this site, that carb-sensitivity is largely an individual thing. Some people are more sensitive to carbs than others. Just because you lose plenty of fat with lots of carbs in your diet, doesn’t mean that others can’t do much better with lower carb diets.