For anyone seeking more info on these terrible supps, concerning homocysteine: http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/homocysteine.html
“Abnormal elevation also occurs among people whose diet contains inadequate amounts of folic acid, vitamin B6, or vitamin B12. Regardless of the cause of the elevation, supplementation with one or more of these vitamins can lower plasma levels of homocysteine.Abnormal elevation also occurs among people whose diet contains inadequate amounts of folic acid, vitamin B6, or vitamin B12. Regardless of the cause of the elevation, supplementation with one or more of these vitamins can lower plasma levels of homocysteine.”
Is it really going to be that bad for you as long as you’re getting plenty of folic acid, b6 and b12?
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
“Abnormal elevation also occurs among people whose diet contains inadequate amounts of folic acid, vitamin B6, or vitamin B12. Regardless of the cause of the elevation, supplementation with one or more of these vitamins can lower plasma levels of homocysteine.Abnormal elevation also occurs among people whose diet contains inadequate amounts of folic acid, vitamin B6, or vitamin B12. Regardless of the cause of the elevation, supplementation with one or more of these vitamins can lower plasma levels of homocysteine.”
Is it really going to be that bad for you as long as you’re getting plenty of folic acid, b6 and b12?[/quote]
Ditto.
“Abnormal elevation also occurs among people whose diet contains inadequate amounts of folic acid, vitamin B6, or vitamin B12. Regardless of the cause of the elevation, supplementation with one or more of these vitamins can lower plasma levels of homocysteine.”
from Homocysteine: A Cardiovascular Risk Factor Worth Considering
by Stephen Barrett, M.D.
T-Nation you let me down, you didn’t give both sides of the story. It’s like saying to someone they’ll get bitch tits from doing test boosters, when if they take the proper post-cycle treatment you might just not get gyno…
Well, I’m doing my homework on this one Barr…
"Dietary supplementation with folic acid can reduce elevated homocysteine levels in most patients. The usual therapeutic dose is 1 mg/day. When this is not effective, vitamins B6 and/or B12 can be added to the regimen, which should be continued permanently. "
-Stephen Barrett, M.D.
First off, glycocyamine betaine anhydrous is one of the last ingredient in the formula for “MUSCLE MILK” which could determine that little is used in the product. Secondly, “MUSCLE MILK”, w/2cups of low fat milk, has 95% of your daily value of FOLIC ACID, 45% of your daily value of B6 and 62% of your daily value of B12.
Anyone have anything to say about this information?
I was worried initially about the Glycocyamine issue, but also saw the B12, B6, and Folic Acid exception, and as already mentioned muscle milk has good amounts of both. Additionally many multi-vitamins have these as well. Now I can continue to enjoy drinking it without worries, well mostly without worries anyway.
[quote]Lift4Life wrote:
“Abnormal elevation also occurs among people whose diet contains inadequate amounts of folic acid, vitamin B6, or vitamin B12. Regardless of the cause of the elevation, supplementation with one or more of these vitamins can lower plasma levels of homocysteine.”
from Homocysteine: A Cardiovascular Risk Factor Worth Considering
by Stephen Barrett, M.D.
T-Nation you let me down, you didn’t give both sides of the story. It’s like saying to someone they’ll get bitch tits from doing test boosters, when if they take the proper post-cycle treatment you might just not get gyno…[/quote]
I have two words for you…
“The competition”
They want you to buy their product instead of the competitions. Any article you read on this website (or any supplement company forum for that matter)about supplements should be viewed with a measure of caution. Now, I’m not saying anyone is lying or being dishonest, I’m just saying that some articles may be biased or not completely forthcoming.
Personally, I drink a lot of MM. But this is because they have a very tasty and well packaged ready to drink (RTD) version. I spend a lot of time out in the field and can’t always eat or snack as I should to keep my weight on.
Now if Biotest sold a RTD that was tasty and competitively priced, I might try that instead.
[quote]Lift4Life wrote:
“Abnormal elevation also occurs among people whose diet contains inadequate amounts of folic acid, vitamin B6, or vitamin B12. Regardless of the cause of the elevation, supplementation with one or more of these vitamins can lower plasma levels of homocysteine.”
from Homocysteine: A Cardiovascular Risk Factor Worth Considering
by Stephen Barrett, M.D.
T-Nation you let me down, you didn’t give both sides of the story. It’s like saying to someone they’ll get bitch tits from doing test boosters, when if they take the proper post-cycle treatment you might just not get gyno…[/quote]
It gets mentioned quite often, for example :
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=919003
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=917298
(that one was actually about Muscle Milk and the Homocysteine and stuff.)
[quote]gojira wrote:
I have two words for you…
“The competition”
[/quote]
=D
[quote]dr stig wrote:
Lift4Life wrote:
“Abnormal elevation also occurs among people whose diet contains inadequate amounts of folic acid, vitamin B6, or vitamin B12. Regardless of the cause of the elevation, supplementation with one or more of these vitamins can lower plasma levels of homocysteine.”
from Homocysteine: A Cardiovascular Risk Factor Worth Considering
by Stephen Barrett, M.D.
T-Nation you let me down, you didn’t give both sides of the story. It’s like saying to someone they’ll get bitch tits from doing test boosters, when if they take the proper post-cycle treatment you might just not get gyno…
It gets mentioned quite often, for example :
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=919003
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=917298
(that one was actually about Muscle Milk and the Homocysteine and stuff.)[/quote]
All right, you got me to read it.
Gotcha.
are you guys kidding?? I train like a madman with that stuff, never used anything that helped me recover so well…
This thread has become a joke of the worst kind.
Decisions always come down to what you want to believe, and no amount of logic or evidence will change that.
If you think that taking vitamins with glycocyamine will keep homocysteine low, then great. I’d never take the chance, and can’t imagine why anyone would -especially considering that glycocyamine is a weak excuse for creatine.
If you think that glycocyamine works better than creatine, great. I’ve written enough on the directed placebo effect and do not need to discuss it further.
The allusion to “show me the bodies” is just sad, as is the idea that adding only a small amount of a harmful ingredient to a supplement makes it okay.
I take great pride in having written some of the most objective articles in the industry, and the comment about letting you down speaks volumes about your agenda.
In short; the conclusions from my article stand. The fact that people attempt to rationalize the sale of such supplements only serves to demonstrate what a pathetic industry this is.
[quote]David Barr wrote:
This thread has become a joke of the worst kind.
Decisions always come down to what you want to believe, and no amount of logic or evidence will change that.
If you think that taking vitamins with glycocyamine will keep homocysteine low, then great. I’d never take the chance, and can’t imagine why anyone would -especially considering that glycocyamine is a weak excuse for creatine.
If you think that glycocyamine works better than creatine, great. I’ve written enough on the directed placebo effect and do not need to discuss it further.
The allusion to “show me the bodies” is just sad, as is the idea that adding only a small amount of a harmful ingredient to a supplement makes it okay.
I take great pride in having written some of the most objective articles in the industry, and the comment about letting you down speaks volumes about your agenda.
In short; the conclusions from my article stand. The fact that people attempt to rationalize the sale of such supplements only serves to demonstrate what a pathetic industry this is.[/quote]
Showing conclusive data that “MUSCLE MILK” has resulted in illness isn’t sad–it’s anything but that, are you saying that I’m wrong for asking for proof? I accept that the G-Amine “may” be bad for you (as I implied in my previous posts). I do believe it is a “pathetic industry”.
I said nothing about glycocyamine working better then creatine, so don’t put words in my mouth. I was simply challenging the fact that “MM” might not be as bad as you think.
-and don’t forget creatine monohydrate can cause dehydration…but we all love that (with good reason)
-I simply cited sources, that stated what to take to counteract glycocyamine, which happen to be included in “MUSCLE MILK”.
-There’s no need to think this post is a joke.
-Decisions do not ALWAYS come down to what you believe. They come down to what you believe and what is an accepted truth.
-alcohol is toxic and people still see the benefits in drinking a glass of red wine
-caffeine is a “mildly addictive stimulant” it increases blood pressure, and causes “occasional irregular heartbeat” http://www.health.harvard.edu/press_releases/coffee_health_risk.htm
we still drink coffee right?
-and “Decaf Coffee Might Slightly Boost Heart-Disease Risk” MSN
we still drink decaf right?
You stated “I’d never take the chance”, do you drink coffee or decaf coffee and play with the possibility of heart disease?
In response to “If you think that taking vitamins with glycocyamine will keep homocysteine low, then great.” --I don’t “think” this, I read from an article (the one I posted earlier) that taking the right B vitamins and Folic Acid will keep homocysteine low 
I’m sorry you couldn’t be more open minded about this. I’m certainly trying to be open minded by questioning…I still wish you would post some sources of “MUSCLE MILK” related illnesses.
I am convinced that the B-vitamins and Folic Acid offset the homocysteine, if you honestly feel that I am in danger or anyone else on this forum I’d like some solid information and no statements such as “may cause” or refering to Biotest products because it sounds insincere.
*This post is not a personal attack, or meant to be taken in an agressive tone. I’m simply debating what you said.
-I HOPE WE’RE STILL BROS DOOOOD!
Mr. Barr if you don’t end up reading everything I’ve posted, it comes down to one question:
Is “ENDOCREATINE” [in the dose given in one serving of “MUSCLE MILK”], as harmful as you say it is (or harmful at all) when combined with the levels of Folic Acid, B6, and B12 in a serving of “MUSCLE MILK” w/2 cups of low fat milk?
That’s all…
Thanks for replying, don’t think your time is unappreciated here.
-By the way, I won’t be getting “MUSCLE MILK” or “SWOLE” simply because of this controversy.
Not for anything man “and the comment about letting you down speaks volumes about your agenda” were you implying that I expect the best from T-Nation? is that so bad?
***Let me say this, you are here for the T-Nation readers. We by your products, pay for your coaching, pay for your seminars, etc.
[quote]Lift4Life wrote:
***Let me say this, you are here for the T-Nation readers. We by your products, pay for your coaching, pay for your seminars, etc. [/quote]
You little no-scroted sheep-fucker.
I would fucking slap you like a bitch if we were in the same room. You can take your “I pay you salary” attitude and jam it up your ass.
Dave gets paid for articles. Anything else on here is his own time, and out of his own pocket. That’s right. He gives up his time to answer questions from readers, not to answer questions from Dickheads like you who are trying to lord over him. You’re not his boss; you’re a fucking charity case.
Now go fuck yourself,
Massif.
[quote]Massif wrote:
Lift4Life wrote:
***Let me say this, you are here for the T-Nation readers. We by your products, pay for your coaching, pay for your seminars, etc.
You little no-scroted sheep-fucker.
I would fucking slap you like a bitch if we were in the same room. You can take your “I pay you salary” attitude and jam it up your ass.
Dave gets paid for articles. Anything else on here is his own time, and out of his own pocket. That’s right. He gives up his time to answer questions from readers, not to answer questions from Dickheads like you who are trying to lord over him. You’re not his boss; you’re a fucking charity case.
Now go fuck yourself,
Massif.[/quote]
You’re so blind and you don’t even know it. I have a lot respect for the writers here, they’ve taken my training to the next level, and I don’t need you challenging me on it. I will say this, most of them are here to make a living and do what they love.
And don’t talk to me about how much people don’t get paid for taking time to explain material, the No Child Left Behind Act implicated in schools around the US requires teachers to work unpaid hours after school, but they still show up so students can get extra help. ***Trust me, putting in time after work isn’t unusual and it’s, in almost every case, demanded. So I don’t need to hear your statements unpaid work.
Besides, he attacked the integrity of my statements and I gave my reasons. And by the way, I’m hear to clarify the evidence behind telling people to not use “MUSCLE MILK”.
We are taking their word on how excellent Biotest supplements work right? Because they’re educated…he should have no problem answering my questions…they’re not very challenging, I just want the proof that “MUSCLE MILK” when mixed w/2 cups of low fat milk causes illness.
Sodium doesn’t explode when you put it on your food, because it’s mixed properly with Chlorine. Could that be the case w/“ENDOCREATINE” and the Folic Acid, B6, and B12 quantities in “MUSCLE MILK”?
[quote]Lift4Life wrote:
You’re so blind and you don’t even know it. I have a lot respect for the writers here, they’ve taken my training to the next level, and I don’t need you challenging me on it. I will say this, most of them are here to make a living and do what they love.
And don’t talk to me about how much people don’t get paid for taking time to explain material, the No Child Left Behind Act implicated in schools around the US requires teachers to work unpaid hours after school, but they still show up so students can get extra help. ***Trust me, putting in time after work isn’t unusual and it’s, in almost every case, demanded. So I don’t need to hear your statements unpaid work. [/quote]
This is awesome. Both these paragraphs have absolutely fucking nothing to do with what I was talking about. You are trying to justify being a complete ass carnivore to DB with some bullshit about “no child left behind”? Guess what, dickhead. They obviously left you behind.
If you can get your brain cells together for long enough to read what I fucking wrote, you would see that I have no problem with people asking Dave for further details. What I take exception to is your “You work for me, bitch” attitude. You getting some of the best free information on the net, and you are acting like you own the place. Well fuck you.
And don’t PM me, either. And especially don’t misrepresent Gojira’s quotes in those PMs. Using her quote to back up you being a complete dickhead isn’t going to work.
Have you gone and fucked yourself yet?
Massif
[quote]Massif wrote:
You are trying to justify being a complete ass carnivore to DB with some bullshit about “no child left behind”? Guess what, dickhead. They obviously left you behind.
Massif[/quote]
“Thanks for replying, don’t think your time is unappreciated here” is what I wrote in a previous post.
Awww someone’s a moron =[. I simply related you saying that he’s here on his own time to other people who work and who are expected to go above and beyond working hours.
I’m done talking with you seeing that you have no good ideas to add to this post. Not to mention you’re starting an arguement with me when I’m not even directing my statements to you. Bye.
[quote]“Thanks for replying, don’t think your time is unappreciated here” is what I wrote in a previous post.
Awww someone’s a moron =[. I simply related you saying that he’s here on his own time to other people who work and who are expected to go above and beyond working hours.
I’m done talking with you seeing that you have no good ideas to add to this post. Not to mention you’re starting an arguement with me when I’m not even directing my statements to you. Bye.[/quote]
Look, I started this post a couple of years ago for people who were concerned about having g-amine in their products… if your not concerned with that, then be my guest and buy the shit (which is what MM is in my opinion). Enough said…
I personally have a history of heart problems in my family so I try to stay away from products that could possibly be a threat to that.
Also, in my opinion DB is one of the greatest, most helpful guys on here, and if he says something I trust him enough to go with it… if you dont, once again be my guest and buy the shit.
And one more thing… Massif was completely correct when he said you were acting like these guys work for you, or owe you something…and you called him a moron??? there’s only one moron in this whole thread and its you.
Stop looking for fights, go buy some MM, and go hang out at another forum where the “experts” are 16 year old kids who think they know what they’re talking about because they read FLEX every month.
It’s amazing, no one is giving me an answer to my question.
So you know what? seeing as though a few of you are trying to attack the tone of my question (somehow that can be done on the internet haha), I come to the conclusion that none of you know the damn answer.
What’s true from all of these posts is that, Barr or anyone else here does not know (or is just simply not typing it in the forum) indefinately that “MUSCLE MILK” is harmful.
-I accept “ENDOCREATINE” is an unhealthy substance to ingest. However, I do not believe “MUSCLE MILK” carries the same effects, due to the quantities of Folic Acid, B6, B12 that are blended in the mix.
-What’s amazing is that he got you to stop using “MUSCLE MILK” and you’re simply taking his word without doing any investigating of your own.