Muscle/Fat Wars-The debate continues...(TT and others join in)

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
1

Hi there TT,
To answer your question I think contrary to what most people think, muscle is gained in the gym…hear me out on this. People always say its all diet right? Well if thats the case granted this was true If I just ate everything in site surely I would hit my caloric recommendations and receive adequate protein right? Hypothetically speaking…

But let’s look further, millions of people work out, have gym memberships, but look the same month in and month out, muscularity wise. Why? Incorrect training methods. Often people tell me in the gym I dont care about strength, I only want to get bigger. The look at me crazy when I am doing weighted dips, good mornings, and deadlifts instead of lots of tricep cable work, leg curls, etc… I also keep my reps low, the turn their nose at this too.

The only way to get bigger is to get stronger. PERIOD!!! This is an absolute truth. Let’s say you stick with the traditional BB rep ranges of 8-12. Most people I see in the gym lift the same amount of weights in that range every week!!! Or worse their spotter lifts it for them., or they do an 1/8 rep. They are still in denial of the fact that they need to get stronger.

Quite simply if you dont get stronger you will never get bigger. Everyone should be trying to get stronger! Now, I know BB’ers aren’t nearly as strong as pure Strength athletes but most are quite strong! Their relative strength is obviously not on par with oly lifters and power lifters but they are strong!! The average gym guy that has been working out for a few months/years using the same weights will not reach their size potential until they get strong.

Granted there probably are some guys who can get bigger without the need to get alot stronger. The guys that walk around with 16 inch plus arms, decent chest, back, and trap size with out even training yet. These would be the minority. The majority of the people in gyms should be trying to get stronger…period.

For me, and I think most other people I see, high reps give me a great pump, you sweat, and you have the illusion that you got bigger, but when I wake up the next day, it goes away.

Moral of the story, Take care of business in the gym a.ka. GET STRONGER!! Put 50-100 lbs on your sq, bench, dl, etc.I dont care if you only want to get bigger…once you are considerably stronger in the compound mvements, you will either A.) be bigger or B.) can handle much more weight in any rep range allowing you to get bigger.

I was on antother website and some kid was asking what diet should he use to get bigger, and he admitted to not even lifting weights!!
Further proof of strength training over diet…Look at prisoners and inmates. These guys have the pooreset of poor diets yet become huge and strong…why? Strength work! I personally knew a guy who went to prison for a few years…this guy was the skinniest sack of bones you’ve ever seen.

Meanwhile I’m in a nice air conditioned health club chugging down shakes, all the latest pills, etc. pumping my muscles up with lots of cables and crap. 2 years later he gets out benching 380 and is hyoooooge. This is a guy who never lifted a weight in his life. You’re telling me he had a proper diet in prison? The worst food choices, the worst protein sources, high fat, high carb, etc. He was probably lucky to eat 3 soild times a day.

Further proof. Look at early turn of the century strong-men and weightlifter’s physiques. (There are some websites, look around…)

Most people would kill for a body like some of these guys had. Steroids? NO (they weren’t invented yet) Did they have a pre workout shake and a post workout shake? NO Did they have massive eating, anabolic diet? No, Did they have fish oil? No, Did they have Surge, BCAA’s and all the other millions of supplements? NO. Protein shakes? No Did they have Tmag? Muscle Media2000, etc. etc.? NOOOOOOOOOOOO

They did lift some heavy weights though. That is the only constant throughout time you will find when looking at most people with an impressive muscular physique.

Look at the people in the photo thread. AL the people that are muscular (CT, Lowery, Berardi, Waterbury, etc) are also pretty strong.

It should be even easier for us. We are not in prison, we are not in the 1900s. We have access to all this cuting edge T-mag training and diet material, and most of us eat a very clean, high protein diet.

If we all really look hard at ourselves and people in the gym, are they/YOU trying to get stronger? I think people are afraid of strength work…

In short, I’ve never meet a person with impressive gym numbers, that didn’t have a killer physique to go with it.

However, I want to add…with respect to GETTING LEANER, I think diet plays a greater role than training. (there…I said it)

2

Reminds me of something Poliquin said…most bodybuilders are just too weak for their muscle’s cross-section. I’d say everyone can benefit from relative strength training here and there.

3

The four most hated words:

“It’s an individial thing”

If you have problems following a proper diet, or do not measure yourself weekly, it’s time to focus on your diet and try to improve it.

If you have a great diet but work out like 10 year old girl, it’s time to focus on your workout and kick your ass.

4

This may be a bad example but a lot of very big and strong guys are built in prison where there is no access to supplements and the food is very poor quality. I think alot of it is attitude. Thats not very scientific but it has some merit. I refuse to not get stronger. some people cant “will” themselves to overcome things. Those that can, can, and those that cant, bowl or play tennis.

5

Muscle is gained outside of the gym, when you rest and recoup before your next training session. Then in this training session you tear your muscle cells apart so that after rest/recoup they become stronger/bigger muscle cells. Pretty simple.

I agree with Goldberg’s example of guys in prison. Another thing to consider is that they also spend alot of time doing almost nothing. In other words: rest. They train and then they rest.

And attitude. If you believe you can get bigger and stronger, than you will.

And consistency is key. Gotta be consistent with training and diet.

6

somehow i missed your point about inmates. now i look like an idiot.

7

Motivation! I think if you have 10 guys waiting to rape you when you pick up the soap, you’d damn well better put on some mass!

8

What types of exercises do inmates do?

Compound exercises.

There’s another hint.

9

Quote:
Often people tell me in the gym I dont care about strength, I only want to get bigger. The look at me crazy when I am doing weighted dips, good mornings, and deadlifts instead of lots of tricep cable work, leg curls, etc… I also keep my reps low, the turn their nose at this too.

You said you wanted to get bigger but, you keep your reps low? Doesn’t higher reps give you size and lower reps give you strength?

Dont kill me if im wrong but the edt program im on now is adding size to my arms like crazy…

10

I’d think that all that cortisol running through your body from fear of being raped would counteract all that work you’d do in the prison gym. Think about it, not sleeping, too nauseous to eat, scared to death every single second. Also, it’s hard to lift when your ass is pressed against a wall. Although, you could do wall squats, handstand pushups…

11

Patricia,

"Muscle is gained outside of the gym, when you rest and recoup before your next training session. Then in this training session you tear your muscle cells apart so that after rest/recoup they become stronger/bigger muscle cells. Pretty simple. "<

Only if the proper stimulus is induced (IN the gym).

12

I think the prison example just goes to show to what extend the body can adapt even in subpar conditions…

-Zulu

13

Greekdawg’s point about gaining strength is extremely well taken. This was the main premise behind The Powerbuilding System that Shawn Phillips developed and ran at MM2K years ago(all other opinions of the Phillips boys aside). Simply put…PROGESSIVE overload on the major movements results in progressive gains. And as a collary to this is the prerequisite that very few sets are taken to failure.
Actually…some years ago…about 1992…I remember an interview that ran on ESPN with Kevin Levrone. The thing that stood out was his recommendation that to get bigger…you had to get stronger…and that he also recommended RARELY training to failure…as this would hamper handling big weights and also proper recovery. Now, granted Levrone is genetically blessed and “using”; however, it was one of the truly rational things I have ever heard a pro say with respect to training…drugs or no drugs.

Peace…

14

Guys in prison get at least 3 squares a day- the problem that most trainers have is that even though they train hard they dont even come close to adequate nutrition. They maybe eat their first meal at lunch time when they grab a burger or a slice of pie-have dinner- and think that because they have a protein drink after the gym that they’re all set. People just dont eat. Prison food if probably a step up for alot of these guys. By the way grrekdawg- way to hijack my thread (just kidding!)

15

Greekdawg, just LOOK at what you’ve stirred up! (grin)

Your point is consisely, articulately and persuasively stated. I agree with you a hundred percent, Muscle is gained in the gym, strength is a vital/critical component of gaining mass, and getting your diet right is the single most important factor in reducing BF.

Shall we refer people who want to do both at the same time to Timbo & Vain? (grin)

16

[Drum roll please…]

GD, one helluva catalyst, aren’t ya, brutha? You and your crazy ideas! First gaining muscle without fat, then maximum muscularity was spawned, now this? My oh my, GD, you dirty dawg!

TT, have I mentioned how excellent it is to have you around so much again?

GD, I completely see and mostly agree with the points you make. From a physiological standpoint, I also see the other side of the coin. That is, muscle growth occurs outside the gym, despite being stimulated inside the gym. Be careful with terminology for clarification.

But, yep, the stimulus is primal for any amount of growth to occur.

Let me illustrate an example, however, to chew on before I try to break this down beyond scientifically. Take Old-School T-Rock for example. You’ve all seen the photo(s), so you know what I looked like. Well, despite my greatest efforts inside the gym–intelligent training combined with the utmost intensity–I couldn’t add any appreciable muscle mass at that level of leanness. My diet, flawless. The missing ingredient? Simply not eating enough. As soon as I cranked up the kcals and didn’t change the training one bit, I grew like a freakin’ weed!

17

Bobo,

Typically lower reps (i.e. <6) are considered conducive to maximal strength gains, whereas hypertrophy is more likely to occur in a higher rep range (i.e. 6-12+).

Now along those same lines, I think you’ll find that many professional bodybuilders, in their earlier years and even now in the off-season, suggest and themselves perform lower reps (i.e. 4-8) with the big guns for exercises. Heck, Ronnie still deads huge poundages for low reps weeks out from a contest!

My primary concern here is that many published bodybuilding magazines (T-mag and JB’s site excluded) offer higher rep programs based on what pro’s do now that they have a ton of granite at which to chisel away!

Along these same lines, I agree with GD that one should focus his/her energies in the gym on heavy, compound lifts that stimulate the metabolism and maximal muscle fibers. In addition, the primary goal is stimulation. That being the case, one should make improvements from training session to training session.

That is, one should lift either heavier weights (in the same rep range) or increase repetitions (with the same load) from one workout relative to the previous. That’s why programs like EDT, ABB, OVT (with progressive increases in sets) are so damn effective! You’re constantly increasing the volume of exercise, the amount of load lifted, the density of the workout, etc. It’s all about increasing the stress on the system!

18

Timbo,

I usually do that…I seem to go against the grain… When others say no it can’t be done…I like to say why not?

No doubt, you must/should be getting stronger every workout. By the way, I am! Strength training is the shit! I strain, but I am not drenched in sweat (usually) I leave feeling refreshed!

One of my fellow gym rats today, asked me why I was leaving after only an hour. He said you need to hit the muscle from every angle, with many exercises. He was doing lat pull downs, machine rows, etc, etc. I did Reactive strength for my incline and 5x5 on bent over rows and called it a day.

But this really hurt me today, a very skinng guy, with little musculature whatsoever (similar to Timbo’s before pic) asked me if I was using the cable cross-overs. I’m thinking to myself…why? Is the bench press broken?

Another point I wanted to bring (TT and Timbo, others, etc feel free to kick in)
up is the difference between actual tissue growth versus substrate increase. If I gain ten lbs of “muscle” I want it to be there next week.

Now when people tell me, they gained 10 lbs of muscle off of creatine in 5 days, I’m sorry but that ain’t new tissue boys ang girls.

If I weigh say 175, I want to look every bit as thick/dense as I weigh.

Joel Marion talked about that in his R,R, & D article.
I understand the methods bodybuilders use (i.e. carb loads, etc) but for me I want to look great (thick/muscular/lean) year round. Not just a few days/weeks out of the year.

Strength training might not shoot your bodyweight up in record time like other types of training but rest assured it will be there when you wake up. It’s going to be new, solid tissue, not just water.

19

Well, I’ll throw in a contrary opinion here…

While I also agree that most people don’t spend enough time focusing on strength, it’s false to assume that one can’t get bigger without getting stronger. Of course it’s very possible to gain size without a corresponding strength increase, just as it’s possible for powerlifters to increase their totals without gaining size. Depends on how you train, how much you eat, AND…

…your genetics.

I hate to harp on this point, but really. Do you guys with your prison examples think that everyone comes out of the yard buffed? I’m here to tell you that that doesn’t happen. Some do (and they’re the ones you notice), and some don’t. Take a look at the scene in Pumping Iron - most of those guys standing there looking at Arnold aren’t all that great, physique-wise. You could also point to other factors for prison muscles, such as the fact that male prison inmates, on average, have higher T levels than the general population. (And I think that the point about not having anything else to do while you’re in makes a big difference as well.)

Same thing applies to the old-timers. No, they didn’t have today’s training and diet strategies, but they were born to be big and strong. It wouldn’t matter what era they lived in, they’d still be bigger and stronger than the average guy, or even the average weightlifter. The Paul brothers (the Barbarian twins of the 80’s) talked about being able to bench press 315 the first time they walked into a gym! Most people won’t be able to bench that much ever. So what are you going to attribute it to? Eating right? C’mon.

I don’t mean to sound crotchety here, but I think that a lot of times people look for hidden answers when the real reason is sitting right there in front of them. Some people are stonger than others, no matter what. Just like some people are smarter, better at languages, more socially at ease, etc. You can change what nature gave you up to a point, but none of us here is ever going to be as fast as Carl Lewis. And it ain’t cuz of a lack of running. :wink:

20

GD,
your comments regarding muscle growth are particularly astute and on the money. Take for example, what happened in my pictures when the lifting stimulus was removed. In this case, even with dialed in diet, and proper protocols of cardio, severe muscle wasting occurred. Now, I can compare this with a previous cut mesocycle when lifting was maintained. During that cycle, my lowest weight was 169 (although much more ripped) than at my current state of 160 (and small).

As has been stated before, although only sporadically on the boards, the neurological component of TUT is of extreme importance. If the neurological message received is that the body must either increase or maintain its muscle mass to meet the daily requirements of living (i.e., being able to lift, push, pull large weight) then the body will either increase its muscle fibers/work capacity (incl. hypertrophy) or maintain what it has. Of course, during severe dieting, certain rate-limiting factors (including genetics) are prominent (see Duloo et. al 2001).

This is why protocols like 5x5 or HST are so valuable during a dieting phase. Unfortunately, I have done neither. At any rate, I do agree that what you are saying is very true. Time inside the gym is of utmost importance.

Vain